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> I wish I had a happier note to end this on, but honestly, my biggest takeaway from the whole experience is that maybe some puzzles just can’t be solved. We ca

by aazaa 5y ago

> I wish I had a happier note to end this on, but honestly, my biggest takeaway from the whole experience is that maybe some puzzles just can’t be solved. We can try to attribute Jack’s problems to intrinsic biological/psychological issues (social phobia, migraines, etc.) or to environmental causes (super high rate of heroin use and OD in the community), but both sides seem fundamentally lacking in explanatory power. The vast majority of socially anxious people don’t resort to heroin, and despite the problems of these small towns, they are by no means among the worst places to live in America, let alone the world. Earlier on, the author does speculate about what drove Jack: > To put it another way, Jack was painfully aware that his future options were, “be a complete loser,” or “be a complete loser who feels really really good for a few hours every day.” He chose the latter. What's striking about this is how it's possible to live this way without drugs. A brain-numbing job eight hours a day and a life-saving hobby for four. A toxic-family life but wonderful community. It almost sounds like Tennis could have been this outlet: > One time when Jack was in middle school, he walked off the tennis court after a well-played match, and his mother asked him how he felt. Jack said something like, “when I’m out there, it’s so nice… it’s like the rest of the world goes away and I don’t have any problems.”

colinmhayes 5y ago
I'm not sure you understand how good heroin feels. Nothing comes close, especially not Tennis or a wonderful community. I tried heroin once, and I regret it every day, because I am 100% positive that I will never again be as happy as I was that day. If I didn't have what is effectively a dream job I'm sure that I'd be a heroin addict.
- evilos 5y ago
  This is the scariest thing about heroin IMO. It's basically game over, you've ruined the game of life by using a cheat code and the rest of the game will feel hollow and pointless.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    You don't need heroin to reveal this to you. That's in part why burnout is a thing. Just try really hard to do what you think is right, and then be shown that what you put your energy into is basically worthless. Then you start thinking about what ultimate prospects every hypothetical financial reward could result in, and it's pretty bleak out there. Then once you're ready to get back into it after being fired, because you're running out of money, you realize that it takes 4x the effort to do 1x the work for 0.25x the spiritual reward that initially drove you to get into it, and so you turn to heroin or start a farm.
    - evilos 5y ago
      That's pretty specific, you alright?
      - brailsafe 5y ago
        I'm working on it ;) No heroin here thankfully
        evilos 5y ago
        Glad to hear it.
    - exikyut 5y ago
      I've been pondering for a while if being at certain points on the bathtub curve of learning/integrating new things (the disorientation phase, the sense of no progress) may create exponential sensitivity to emotional stress (like burnout) and make it feel 100x worse. Reading this, now I'm wondering if maybe a similar bathtub curve effect (specifically the "I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel" part) associated with the open-ended constant mental engagement of looking for work precipitates a similar sort of sensitivity to ROI outcomes (with obvious preferences toward lots of positivity). If this is the case, then as direct as it is to say - these mechanisms are just that, mental mechanisms, and it just happens that when "low point of bathtub curve" bounces off of "really badly timed negative ROI event" bounce off of each other, it's like the result is amplified almost beyond reason. Long-term the signal value ("this will kill your spirit") is absolutely true, but in the immediate (ultra-short) term, compartmentalizing and ignoring it may be both safe and actively helpful. (Standard internet advice disclaimer applies) TL;DR: Good luck, and may circumstances and equilibrium materially improve and solidify.
- HamburgerEmoji 5y ago
  > I am 100% positive that I will never again be as happy as I was that day. I think you might be too certain about that. It's possible to train oneself to be happier than most people imagine is possible. https://library.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/the_path_to_nibbana__d_johnson_f18.pdf https://library.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/the... I mention it because you say you're in a precarious situation. Wouldn't it be good to cultivate a kind of happiness that doesn't depend on a wonderful job or anything else?
- 4thwaywastrel 5y ago
  I can't be sure because I've never tried heroin, but it might be possible to feel that good without drugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Dhyana meditation comes with its own risks. In general, "religion" is quite dangerous stuff, and should not be fed to children.
    - Yajirobe 5y ago
      Expand on this please
      - denton-scratch 5y ago
        Meditating on the six dhyanas (or "janas") is a kind of single-pointed concentration. One of the side-effects is supposedly "bliss" (sukha). It's strong medicine, and if it works, it will alter your mind - that's what it's for. I have to say I've never tried it; I was warned off it. If you're doing it for the bliss, your motivation is wrong, and you are at risk of vanity and playing power-games with people. If that happens, you will suffer harm. If you were asking why I think religion is not for children, well: I think tales about fairies, angels and Santa Claus are not for children. I don't think you should lie to children, nor encourage them to subscribe to superstitious beliefs. By "children", I mean anyone with underdeveloped critical faculties. I read fairy stories to my kids, at bedtime; but I didn't pretend they were true. Some religious systems present very interesting ways of looking at the world, the mind, and morality. But it's like hard drugs; it affects your mind and your relationships, and not necessarily for the better. I think that tangling with a religious system should only be done with care, and under appropriate supervision. The matter of how to choose a suitable spiritual mentor is an unsolved problem.
- costcopizza 5y ago
  I think he’s implying if he had that outlet, maybe heroin would have never been encountered.
  - dustintrex 5y ago
    He was first prescribed opiates for an injury.
    - nwienert 5y ago
      Just to throw in my 2c, I’ve had dilaudid a few times for an injury and other opiates for various reasons, and while they feel great, they really never cross my mind much and I don’t hold them close to many sober experiences. Not even as good as other drugs, of which I could list 3-4 I’d consider as or more enjoyable. The above comment feels like a really dramatic description of opiates. I don’t think most anyone with a moderately stable life is at risk of addiction trying them.
      - musicale 5y ago
        As I understand it, even mild pain medications like ibuprofen (for women though apparently not for men) and acetominophen can relieve emotional pain as well as physical pain. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180206090700.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180206090700.h... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-courage-our-conniptions/201008/can-tylenol-ease-broken-heart https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-courage-our-conn...
      - c23gooey 5y ago
        I think people experience the euphoria of opiates differently. Anecdotally - i've never found opiates compelling. I appreciate their ability to numb severe pain, but they don't do anything for me as a mental release. Whereas a good friend is the opposite, he loves the feeling opiates give him and gets quite a kick out of them. He is very careful around them because he understands that he could easily slip into a full blown addiction with them. BTW - this friend has a stable job, a loving wife and 2 kids.
- ioseph 5y ago
  That was certainly not my experience, it was an intense physical pleasure but ultimately devoid of mental depth. Having tried most drugs I really think the whole addicted after one dose is bullshit and it's far more about your social economic circumstances. It's much more tempting to seek out another hit if you have nothing better to do that day.
  - karlmdavis 5y ago
    This seems to rather callously disregard the parent commenter’s lived experience. Perhaps, just maybe, not everyone is like you; it might be different for different people? Just a thought.
    - jt_thurs_82 5y ago
      > That was certainly not my experience
    - ioseph 5y ago
      That was certainly not my intention, I was trying to say that the idea that these substances will make anyone a helpless addict if they try them once is misleading and completely ignores the social context around addiction.
      - robbiep 5y ago
        Addiction and the addictive ness of drugs is a multi factorial gradient. It requires the right psychosocial conditions, the right environment, and the right drug, and a person who might become a heroin addiction one day may not be so at a different point in their life. Roughly 1-2% of people who try heroin once are done forever; many many try once or twice and aren’t. For cigarettes the rate is about 20-30% who become addicted
      - ufmace 5y ago
        It seems pretty clear that there's at least some level of genetic component to addiction. It seems likely that this is part of it. Some people, like you I suppose, really genuinely think it's not that big of a deal. Some people, presumably like the grandparent of this thread or the subject of the article, think it's by far the most amazing thing they'll ever experience in their life. Why's that so hard to believe? It seems pretty likely to me that at least some people really will inevitably go down that road from one dose. Maybe not as many as the hardcore Drug Warriors would like us to think, but at least a few. It's an odd blind spot for the hardcore Libertarians - some people just aren't physically capable of coping with it, and no amount of willpower on their parts will change that.
SuoDuanDao 5y ago
I heard a story - can't find the reference now - of a doctor who got addicts to replace their drug addiction with exercise addictions. From what I recall the program was quite successful at making the patients functional, but didn't really do much for the underlying issues - just made the addiction itself less damaging.
- krater23 5y ago
  Makes sense. I talked about it with a friend of mine, a ex-junky. He said, all people he know from the Methadon-program are dead because they just died on alcohol. He said, they don't take Heroin because Heroin make addicted, they take Heroin because they needed 'the hammer on the head'. They switched from Heroin to a more damaging addiction. Why this should not work with less damaging addictions too?
  - asdff 5y ago
    Pretty common on the west coast to hear about people taking suboxone to quell their heroin addiction but doing meth now to get high because its so cheap and available in this part of the country due to the industrialized processes in mexico that came online over the past 10 years.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    There is no organ in the body that isn't harmed by alcohol. This is what doctors have told me. The ethanol molecule is tiny, and can pass through any membrane.
- toyg 5y ago
  That's the "Trainspotting 2" theory: we're all addicts, just replace one addiction for another. Film director and comedian Kevin Smith once said his friend Jay Mewes manages to stay away from his heroin addiction by drinking gallons of energy drinks.
jareklupinski 5y ago
I really honed in on this part: > They knew he would never get drugs when I was there. He wouldn’t shatter the illusion he and his family crafted for me. It wouldn’t be worth it, not even for a fix. seemed to be something that really worked? albeit for the while

by aazaa 5y ago

colinmhayes 5y ago

I'm not sure you understand how good heroin feels. Nothing comes close, especially not Tennis or a wonderful community. I tried heroin once, and I regret it every day, because I am 100% positive that I will never again be as happy as I was that day. If I didn't have what is effectively a dream job I'm sure that I'd be a heroin addict.

evilos 5y ago
This is the scariest thing about heroin IMO. It's basically game over, you've ruined the game of life by using a cheat code and the rest of the game will feel hollow and pointless.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  You don't need heroin to reveal this to you. That's in part why burnout is a thing. Just try really hard to do what you think is right, and then be shown that what you put your energy into is basically worthless. Then you start thinking about what ultimate prospects every hypothetical financial reward could result in, and it's pretty bleak out there. Then once you're ready to get back into it after being fired, because you're running out of money, you realize that it takes 4x the effort to do 1x the work for 0.25x the spiritual reward that initially drove you to get into it, and so you turn to heroin or start a farm.
  - evilos 5y ago
    That's pretty specific, you alright?
    - brailsafe 5y ago
      I'm working on it ;) No heroin here thankfully
      - evilos 5y ago
        Glad to hear it.
  - exikyut 5y ago
    I've been pondering for a while if being at certain points on the bathtub curve of learning/integrating new things (the disorientation phase, the sense of no progress) may create exponential sensitivity to emotional stress (like burnout) and make it feel 100x worse. Reading this, now I'm wondering if maybe a similar bathtub curve effect (specifically the "I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel" part) associated with the open-ended constant mental engagement of looking for work precipitates a similar sort of sensitivity to ROI outcomes (with obvious preferences toward lots of positivity). If this is the case, then as direct as it is to say - these mechanisms are just that, mental mechanisms, and it just happens that when "low point of bathtub curve" bounces off of "really badly timed negative ROI event" bounce off of each other, it's like the result is amplified almost beyond reason. Long-term the signal value ("this will kill your spirit") is absolutely true, but in the immediate (ultra-short) term, compartmentalizing and ignoring it may be both safe and actively helpful. (Standard internet advice disclaimer applies) TL;DR: Good luck, and may circumstances and equilibrium materially improve and solidify.
HamburgerEmoji 5y ago
> I am 100% positive that I will never again be as happy as I was that day. I think you might be too certain about that. It's possible to train oneself to be happier than most people imagine is possible. https://library.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/the_path_to_nibbana__d_johnson_f18.pdf https://library.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/the... I mention it because you say you're in a precarious situation. Wouldn't it be good to cultivate a kind of happiness that doesn't depend on a wonderful job or anything else?
4thwaywastrel 5y ago
I can't be sure because I've never tried heroin, but it might be possible to feel that good without drugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Dhyana meditation comes with its own risks. In general, "religion" is quite dangerous stuff, and should not be fed to children.
  - Yajirobe 5y ago
    Expand on this please
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      Meditating on the six dhyanas (or "janas") is a kind of single-pointed concentration. One of the side-effects is supposedly "bliss" (sukha). It's strong medicine, and if it works, it will alter your mind - that's what it's for. I have to say I've never tried it; I was warned off it. If you're doing it for the bliss, your motivation is wrong, and you are at risk of vanity and playing power-games with people. If that happens, you will suffer harm. If you were asking why I think religion is not for children, well: I think tales about fairies, angels and Santa Claus are not for children. I don't think you should lie to children, nor encourage them to subscribe to superstitious beliefs. By "children", I mean anyone with underdeveloped critical faculties. I read fairy stories to my kids, at bedtime; but I didn't pretend they were true. Some religious systems present very interesting ways of looking at the world, the mind, and morality. But it's like hard drugs; it affects your mind and your relationships, and not necessarily for the better. I think that tangling with a religious system should only be done with care, and under appropriate supervision. The matter of how to choose a suitable spiritual mentor is an unsolved problem.
costcopizza 5y ago
I think he’s implying if he had that outlet, maybe heroin would have never been encountered.
- dustintrex 5y ago
  He was first prescribed opiates for an injury.
  - nwienert 5y ago
    Just to throw in my 2c, I’ve had dilaudid a few times for an injury and other opiates for various reasons, and while they feel great, they really never cross my mind much and I don’t hold them close to many sober experiences. Not even as good as other drugs, of which I could list 3-4 I’d consider as or more enjoyable. The above comment feels like a really dramatic description of opiates. I don’t think most anyone with a moderately stable life is at risk of addiction trying them.
    - musicale 5y ago
      As I understand it, even mild pain medications like ibuprofen (for women though apparently not for men) and acetominophen can relieve emotional pain as well as physical pain. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180206090700.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180206090700.h... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-courage-our-conniptions/201008/can-tylenol-ease-broken-heart https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-courage-our-conn...
    - c23gooey 5y ago
      I think people experience the euphoria of opiates differently. Anecdotally - i've never found opiates compelling. I appreciate their ability to numb severe pain, but they don't do anything for me as a mental release. Whereas a good friend is the opposite, he loves the feeling opiates give him and gets quite a kick out of them. He is very careful around them because he understands that he could easily slip into a full blown addiction with them. BTW - this friend has a stable job, a loving wife and 2 kids.
ioseph 5y ago
That was certainly not my experience, it was an intense physical pleasure but ultimately devoid of mental depth. Having tried most drugs I really think the whole addicted after one dose is bullshit and it's far more about your social economic circumstances. It's much more tempting to seek out another hit if you have nothing better to do that day.
- karlmdavis 5y ago
  This seems to rather callously disregard the parent commenter’s lived experience. Perhaps, just maybe, not everyone is like you; it might be different for different people? Just a thought.
  - jt_thurs_82 5y ago
    > That was certainly not my experience
  - ioseph 5y ago
    That was certainly not my intention, I was trying to say that the idea that these substances will make anyone a helpless addict if they try them once is misleading and completely ignores the social context around addiction.
    - robbiep 5y ago
      Addiction and the addictive ness of drugs is a multi factorial gradient. It requires the right psychosocial conditions, the right environment, and the right drug, and a person who might become a heroin addiction one day may not be so at a different point in their life. Roughly 1-2% of people who try heroin once are done forever; many many try once or twice and aren’t. For cigarettes the rate is about 20-30% who become addicted
    - ufmace 5y ago
      It seems pretty clear that there's at least some level of genetic component to addiction. It seems likely that this is part of it. Some people, like you I suppose, really genuinely think it's not that big of a deal. Some people, presumably like the grandparent of this thread or the subject of the article, think it's by far the most amazing thing they'll ever experience in their life. Why's that so hard to believe? It seems pretty likely to me that at least some people really will inevitably go down that road from one dose. Maybe not as many as the hardcore Drug Warriors would like us to think, but at least a few. It's an odd blind spot for the hardcore Libertarians - some people just aren't physically capable of coping with it, and no amount of willpower on their parts will change that.

SuoDuanDao 5y ago

I heard a story - can't find the reference now - of a doctor who got addicts to replace their drug addiction with exercise addictions. From what I recall the program was quite successful at making the patients functional, but didn't really do much for the underlying issues - just made the addiction itself less damaging.

krater23 5y ago
Makes sense. I talked about it with a friend of mine, a ex-junky. He said, all people he know from the Methadon-program are dead because they just died on alcohol. He said, they don't take Heroin because Heroin make addicted, they take Heroin because they needed 'the hammer on the head'. They switched from Heroin to a more damaging addiction. Why this should not work with less damaging addictions too?
- asdff 5y ago
  Pretty common on the west coast to hear about people taking suboxone to quell their heroin addiction but doing meth now to get high because its so cheap and available in this part of the country due to the industrialized processes in mexico that came online over the past 10 years.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  There is no organ in the body that isn't harmed by alcohol. This is what doctors have told me. The ethanol molecule is tiny, and can pass through any membrane.
toyg 5y ago
That's the "Trainspotting 2" theory: we're all addicts, just replace one addiction for another. Film director and comedian Kevin Smith once said his friend Jay Mewes manages to stay away from his heroin addiction by drinking gallons of energy drinks.

jareklupinski 5y ago

I really honed in on this part: > They knew he would never get drugs when I was there. He wouldn’t shatter the illusion he and his family crafted for me. It wouldn’t be worth it, not even for a fix. seemed to be something that really worked? albeit for the while