7 ms·

Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

164 points by JoshuaAshton 5y ago

Angius 5y ago
Let's just say that this decision made me reinstall Elixir and open up Phoenix docs... I've been meaning to take a look at them and now I got the push. Now, I don't think I'll rewrite my current projects in Elixir, far from it, but just in case...
fartcannon 5y ago
At some point you have to start asking yourself, why do I tolerate this stuff when there are better alternatives elsewhere? Ditch Microsoft. Ditch closed computing.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  Better is in the eye of the beholder; in my business you can choose .net or Jvm. And then c# or Java, not f# or clojure.
- Angius 5y ago
  I haven't found a more pleasant language and ecosystem to use than C#. Where am I going to go, Java with its verbosity, so my projects double in LOCs? Rust, with its cliff of a learning curve and alien syntax?
  - ptx 5y ago
    If you want Java without the verbosity, try Kotlin: https://kotlinlang.org/ https://kotlinlang.org/
darepublic 5y ago
Revenge of the donkey
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  But I wanted the laser cannon!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sander1095 5y ago
Perhaps even more concerning is the possible removal of dotnet watch entirely, crippling the productivity of cli users as a result. I created an issue about that here: https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/22265 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/22265
anon0078910 5y ago
Not sure what are you complaining about. If you are single developer or small enough entity who can not afford, you have Visual Studio Community for FREE. However, if you are making good money developing software then you spend some of it in tooling. Why should your company make the profit but not MS who invests heavily in their platforms, tooling and entire eco system so you can build and run your applications and services (which makes you money in the first place). I have not seen any more generous company than MS. Have you?
oaiey 5y ago
A question: is this MIT code developed also by non Microsoft developers? Because than free labor is hijacked into a commercial product. Which would be very unethical
ripley12 5y ago
I'm the author of that issue. I think I can be a little more frank here: this is a horrifically short-sighted decision that has me scared for the future of .NET. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the .NET team, and I'm very certain they're not the ones behind this. I've been incredibly impressed by the hot reload solution that the .NET team has delivered. It's worked remarkably well in preview across multiple platforms and technologies. I've built my own hooks into the hot reload feature, and I've used it to get a tight feedback loop in many different kinds of applications. It's awesome. I was so excited to be able to point to that feature and say "yes, .NET has a great developer experience - even outside Visual Studio". I haven't always been able to do that. And now... it's going away as a broadly available feature, so that some bean counter can use it to drive usage of a legacy IDE (I love Visual Studio, but let's not kid ourselves about where the future lies). Immediate feedback (i.e. a fast inner loop) isn't a niche feature - it's an essential element of any creative activity (see: Bret Victor). They are crippling .NET and it hurts to see it.
- deburo 5y ago
  I understand the huge disappointment but there’s a bit of hyperbole there. Anyway, lets hope they reconsider w/ .net 7. At the pace they’re going, in a years time.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    As someone who has put the future of my company on .net core this is not hyperbole; this is quite a worrying development. I did not pick Java because .net core has served me well when I build some prototypes 5 years ago (the 15 years before that we did mostly but I sold that company and all my colleagues were tied in the sale, willingly so I could re evaluate tech).
  - ripley12 5y ago
    Not hyperbole. If .NET is going to stay relevant in the long run, it needs a better reputation for cross-platform development and much better tooling outside of Visual Studio. Newcomers to the language expect it to work well in VS Code, and they are frequently disappointed. This decision moves .NET backward in areas it already needs to do better in, and to add insult to injury it does so by deleting already-working code.
rvz 5y ago
Extend. So you can't use this feature on Jetbrains Rider or any other app other than Visual Studio. This is typical Microsoft, so it's unsurprising. But they have a strange way of 'embracing' open source.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  It’s their own code. You’re accusing Microsoft of EEEing their own code?
  - sterlind 5y ago
    EEE isn't about the code, it's about the community. They brought in a lot of people from the Linux world through .Net Core, proper Linux support and porting tons of libraries. They could next try to convert those to paying customers by locking them into VS. I work at MS, and I love .Net, but I'm really frustrated at this. I have a disability and VS Code is far more accessible for me (b/c extensions), but it's painful getting things done compared to VS.
    - WalterGR 5y ago
      I think - though I can’t recall any on the spot- that there are “Open Source Companies” - that give away the main thing, but charge for advanced features. Any idea if this is the case?
phendrenad2 5y ago
Welcome to corporate-owned open-source. You COULD fork .NET and add hot-reload back in. But you won't. And they know it.
- mycall 5y ago
  I wonder how hard to diff the feature back in.
  - Angius 5y ago
    It's, apparently, a couple thousands lines. It could, perhaps, even be made into its own separate tool. Haven't looked at it myself, though.
- oaiey 5y ago
  Well, try to squeeze something into Linux without Linus approval. Every project has a ultimate authority somehow. But you are completely right. Especially with the last sentence.
tailspin2019 5y ago
This is a terrible decision. The feature already works, and if they’re not happy with it, they could just slap a preview/beta flag on it in the docs like they do for many other things. Instead, they actually ripped out the code. Other web frameworks have had this functionality for years. .NET just finally caught up, and then they drop it.
- VortexDream 5y ago
  They even locked the PR for the change to prevent it being discussed. This is disgusting behavior.
devwastaken 5y ago
.NET is one of those languages you want to give a chance, and every time you do, it does something incredibly short sighted and harmful to itself. You just can't change Microsoft. You can put fancy new skins on things and say you're part of the cool kids, but remember the people who made all of Microsoft s terrible moments aren't the young devs that care. It's management. The only way I will ever use .net is if an actual open source implementation detached from MS happens. Openjdk it.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  I ran across this recently when I wanted to give C# a chance again with a build of the VSCode code base (which everyone should use, also known as Vscodium). Well, guess what: The debugger only runs on the proprietary version of VSCode. The one with the telemetry and nagware. Congrats on all the foot-shooting, Microsoft. Just as some people think you've changed, reverse course. Billions well spent.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  There's already Mono.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    Mono is quite worthless server-side compared to .net core 5.
  - demetrius 5y ago
    Mono developers have been part of Microsoft for some time already. And it's unlikely that Mono will become a viable alternative, since there's a conflict of interests: Microsoft wouldn't want you running arbitrary .NET applications on Linux, they want you to buy Windows.
john_gihhins 5y ago
Just a long time lurker here, but I don’t remember anyone mentioning a tool I’ve been using: LiveSharp at www.livesharp.net -> it worked much better than MS tooling in VS2022. Disclaimer: primary Xamarin development.
vbilopav 5y ago
They are reverting it back https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262
- bravetraveler 5y ago
  Little more than a troll - a third party clicked the revert button, basically. Wouldn't wait around for it to be reviewed/approved... but I'm willing to be surprised.
- oaiey 5y ago
  They are not. Even if they agree with the community. It is too late for release timeline of .NET 6.
- CodesInChaos 5y ago
  That looks like a pull-request by a random github user, and the approvals don't appear to be by maintainers either. So this PR means little.
jung_j 5y ago
It looks like they'll revert the change: https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262
- jung_j 5y ago
  Edit: Tough this is a community contribution with no official approval yet.
- VortexDream 5y ago
  Sort of nuts that it is solely reliant on Microsoft to approve this change. Calls the whole .NET Foundation into question, imo. What good is open source if the sole steward has interests that conflict with the overall well-being of everything under the NET umbrella.
bob1029 5y ago
The way I deal with all of this (we are a pure Microsoft shop), is to simply pretend like MS is another flavor of Apple, and that I shouldn't expect anything to work outside of the walled garden. Pay to play, rug taken out from under at worst moment, etc. All par for this course. Once you accept the nature of the abuser, it's a lot easier to get productive and back to some state of happy. Is Microsoft raping and pillaging OSS? Kinda maybe in some ways... Are they providing incredibly powerful tools and platforms upon which ordinary assholes like myself can build neat shit? Yes also. I dont think we should always expect to have our cake and eat it too. Seems like some days we are allowed to, and on others we are reminded that magic is not always free.
Shadonototra 5y ago
"your language is not backed by a big corp, therefore it is useless" This aged very well..
doker0 5y ago
Quickly guys and gals. The only way to really keep this feature and allow an incentive for VS team to develop the software is to figure out a business plan for MS. There's no big progress without VS designers and tools for new features, and there is no big step forward without .net cross-platform adaptation including all kinds of devices. They are not going to provide all tools for all platforms, but they still have to have their playground called VS to push new features (like the mentioned Azure support). Quickly guys and gals, give them a sustainable business idea.

164 points by JoshuaAshton 5y ago

Let's just say that this decision made me reinstall Elixir and open up Phoenix docs... I've been meaning to take a look at them and now I got the push. Now, I don't think I'll rewrite my current projects in Elixir, far from it, but just in case...

fartcannon 5y ago

At some point you have to start asking yourself, why do I tolerate this stuff when there are better alternatives elsewhere? Ditch Microsoft. Ditch closed computing.

tluyben2 5y ago
Better is in the eye of the beholder; in my business you can choose .net or Jvm. And then c# or Java, not f# or clojure.
Angius 5y ago
I haven't found a more pleasant language and ecosystem to use than C#. Where am I going to go, Java with its verbosity, so my projects double in LOCs? Rust, with its cliff of a learning curve and alien syntax?
- ptx 5y ago
  If you want Java without the verbosity, try Kotlin: https://kotlinlang.org/ https://kotlinlang.org/

darepublic 5y ago

Revenge of the donkey

tailspin2019 5y ago
But I wanted the laser cannon!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sander1095 5y ago

Perhaps even more concerning is the possible removal of dotnet watch entirely, crippling the productivity of cli users as a result. I created an issue about that here: https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/22265 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/22265

anon0078910 5y ago

Not sure what are you complaining about. If you are single developer or small enough entity who can not afford, you have Visual Studio Community for FREE. However, if you are making good money developing software then you spend some of it in tooling. Why should your company make the profit but not MS who invests heavily in their platforms, tooling and entire eco system so you can build and run your applications and services (which makes you money in the first place). I have not seen any more generous company than MS. Have you?

oaiey 5y ago

A question: is this MIT code developed also by non Microsoft developers? Because than free labor is hijacked into a commercial product. Which would be very unethical

ripley12 5y ago

I'm the author of that issue. I think I can be a little more frank here: this is a horrifically short-sighted decision that has me scared for the future of .NET. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the .NET team, and I'm very certain they're not the ones behind this. I've been incredibly impressed by the hot reload solution that the .NET team has delivered. It's worked remarkably well in preview across multiple platforms and technologies. I've built my own hooks into the hot reload feature, and I've used it to get a tight feedback loop in many different kinds of applications. It's awesome. I was so excited to be able to point to that feature and say "yes, .NET has a great developer experience - even outside Visual Studio". I haven't always been able to do that. And now... it's going away as a broadly available feature, so that some bean counter can use it to drive usage of a legacy IDE (I love Visual Studio, but let's not kid ourselves about where the future lies). Immediate feedback (i.e. a fast inner loop) isn't a niche feature - it's an essential element of any creative activity (see: Bret Victor). They are crippling .NET and it hurts to see it.

deburo 5y ago
I understand the huge disappointment but there’s a bit of hyperbole there. Anyway, lets hope they reconsider w/ .net 7. At the pace they’re going, in a years time.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  As someone who has put the future of my company on .net core this is not hyperbole; this is quite a worrying development. I did not pick Java because .net core has served me well when I build some prototypes 5 years ago (the 15 years before that we did mostly but I sold that company and all my colleagues were tied in the sale, willingly so I could re evaluate tech).
- ripley12 5y ago
  Not hyperbole. If .NET is going to stay relevant in the long run, it needs a better reputation for cross-platform development and much better tooling outside of Visual Studio. Newcomers to the language expect it to work well in VS Code, and they are frequently disappointed. This decision moves .NET backward in areas it already needs to do better in, and to add insult to injury it does so by deleting already-working code.

rvz 5y ago

Extend. So you can't use this feature on Jetbrains Rider or any other app other than Visual Studio. This is typical Microsoft, so it's unsurprising. But they have a strange way of 'embracing' open source.

WalterGR 5y ago
It’s their own code. You’re accusing Microsoft of EEEing their own code?
- sterlind 5y ago
  EEE isn't about the code, it's about the community. They brought in a lot of people from the Linux world through .Net Core, proper Linux support and porting tons of libraries. They could next try to convert those to paying customers by locking them into VS. I work at MS, and I love .Net, but I'm really frustrated at this. I have a disability and VS Code is far more accessible for me (b/c extensions), but it's painful getting things done compared to VS.
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    I think - though I can’t recall any on the spot- that there are “Open Source Companies” - that give away the main thing, but charge for advanced features. Any idea if this is the case?

phendrenad2 5y ago

Welcome to corporate-owned open-source. You COULD fork .NET and add hot-reload back in. But you won't. And they know it.

mycall 5y ago
I wonder how hard to diff the feature back in.
- Angius 5y ago
  It's, apparently, a couple thousands lines. It could, perhaps, even be made into its own separate tool. Haven't looked at it myself, though.
oaiey 5y ago
Well, try to squeeze something into Linux without Linus approval. Every project has a ultimate authority somehow. But you are completely right. Especially with the last sentence.

tailspin2019 5y ago

This is a terrible decision. The feature already works, and if they’re not happy with it, they could just slap a preview/beta flag on it in the docs like they do for many other things. Instead, they actually ripped out the code. Other web frameworks have had this functionality for years. .NET just finally caught up, and then they drop it.

VortexDream 5y ago
They even locked the PR for the change to prevent it being discussed. This is disgusting behavior.

devwastaken 5y ago

.NET is one of those languages you want to give a chance, and every time you do, it does something incredibly short sighted and harmful to itself. You just can't change Microsoft. You can put fancy new skins on things and say you're part of the cool kids, but remember the people who made all of Microsoft s terrible moments aren't the young devs that care. It's management. The only way I will ever use .net is if an actual open source implementation detached from MS happens. Openjdk it.

solarkraft 5y ago
I ran across this recently when I wanted to give C# a chance again with a build of the VSCode code base (which everyone should use, also known as Vscodium). Well, guess what: The debugger only runs on the proprietary version of VSCode. The one with the telemetry and nagware. Congrats on all the foot-shooting, Microsoft. Just as some people think you've changed, reverse course. Billions well spent.
lostmsu 5y ago
There's already Mono.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  Mono is quite worthless server-side compared to .net core 5.
- demetrius 5y ago
  Mono developers have been part of Microsoft for some time already. And it's unlikely that Mono will become a viable alternative, since there's a conflict of interests: Microsoft wouldn't want you running arbitrary .NET applications on Linux, they want you to buy Windows.

john_gihhins 5y ago

Just a long time lurker here, but I don’t remember anyone mentioning a tool I’ve been using: LiveSharp at www.livesharp.net -> it worked much better than MS tooling in VS2022. Disclaimer: primary Xamarin development.

vbilopav 5y ago

They are reverting it back https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262

bravetraveler 5y ago
Little more than a troll - a third party clicked the revert button, basically. Wouldn't wait around for it to be reviewed/approved... but I'm willing to be surprised.
oaiey 5y ago
They are not. Even if they agree with the community. It is too late for release timeline of .NET 6.
CodesInChaos 5y ago
That looks like a pull-request by a random github user, and the approvals don't appear to be by maintainers either. So this PR means little.

jung_j 5y ago

It looks like they'll revert the change: https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262

jung_j 5y ago
Edit: Tough this is a community contribution with no official approval yet.
VortexDream 5y ago
Sort of nuts that it is solely reliant on Microsoft to approve this change. Calls the whole .NET Foundation into question, imo. What good is open source if the sole steward has interests that conflict with the overall well-being of everything under the NET umbrella.

bob1029 5y ago

The way I deal with all of this (we are a pure Microsoft shop), is to simply pretend like MS is another flavor of Apple, and that I shouldn't expect anything to work outside of the walled garden. Pay to play, rug taken out from under at worst moment, etc. All par for this course. Once you accept the nature of the abuser, it's a lot easier to get productive and back to some state of happy. Is Microsoft raping and pillaging OSS? Kinda maybe in some ways... Are they providing incredibly powerful tools and platforms upon which ordinary assholes like myself can build neat shit? Yes also. I dont think we should always expect to have our cake and eat it too. Seems like some days we are allowed to, and on others we are reminded that magic is not always free.

Shadonototra 5y ago

"your language is not backed by a big corp, therefore it is useless" This aged very well..

doker0 5y ago

Quickly guys and gals. The only way to really keep this feature and allow an incentive for VS team to develop the software is to figure out a business plan for MS. There's no big progress without VS designers and tools for new features, and there is no big step forward without .net cross-platform adaptation including all kinds of devices. They are not going to provide all tools for all platforms, but they still have to have their playground called VS to push new features (like the mentioned Azure support). Quickly guys and gals, give them a sustainable business idea.