7 ms·

Yeah… who are the owners of a flat to decide what to do with it, eh?

by jikbd 5y ago

hihihihi1234 5y ago
So you'd have no problem if your neighbours turned their flat into a brothel and a meth lab? Because that's the logical extension of your argument.
- V-2 5y ago
  I'd have the exact same problem if the owner of the flat turned into a meth lab (or throwing loud parties or whatever) did pay all the taxes.
dingdongbing 5y ago
The problem is that the locals cannot find housing themselves. Laws like this protect the common people of Amsterdam at the expense of the flat owners inalienable right to exploit them
locallost 5y ago
There are tons of limitations to what you can do with your property. E.g. you can own land but can't build a house if the land is not zoned for it. Even the meaning of property has changed over the centuries. It's no longer acceptable to own a human being, which was a contested idea not too long ago. It's the people that make a society that decide what they want the rules to be. Good for the people of Amsterdam that they don't accept man made "realities" on what can or can't be done.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  If it's no longer acceptable to own a human being, that's going to be a problem for the gimp training and service industry in Amsterdam. https://www.nobleprog.nl/en/gimp/training/amsterdam https://www.nobleprog.nl/en/gimp/training/amsterdam >Gimp Training in Amsterdam >Online or onsite, instructor-led live Gimp training courses demonstrate through interactive discussion and hands-on practice the fundamentals and advanced topics of Gimp and Gimpshop. >Gimp training is available as "online live training" or "onsite live training". Online live training (aka "remote live training") is carried out by way of an interactive, remote desktop. Onsite live Gimp training can be carried out locally on customer premises in Amsterdam or in NobleProg corporate training centers in Amsterdam. https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/ShowUserReviews-g188590-d14917717-r190696953-Supperclub-Amsterdam_North_Holland_Province.html https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/ShowUserReviews-g188590-d1491... >Different and enjoyable, but expensive >Travelled to the Supper Club with my girlfriend and we had a great time. Waiters in gimp suits, rubber gloves upon arrival and comfy beds to lounge on while we ate, created a unique experience.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Mix ups like this are why I don't mention my experience with the GNU Image Manipulation Program[1] offline. [1] https://www.gimp.org/ https://www.gimp.org/
  - Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
    I think those are two very different types of gimps.
    - DonHopkins 5y ago
      They use AirBnD instead.
  - gerikson 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure the waiters are paid competitive rates and are free to seek other employment. So comparing them to literal slaves is disingenuous.
    - b112 5y ago
      But they're working for people, doing what they might not want to on their own free time! Slavery! I dislike how some diminish this term, with such frivolous complaints. Yes, surely the waiters were hobbled. Or beaten to death. Or starved, worked 18 hour days, etc. Totally similar!
mellavora 5y ago
I might have more sympathy for the flat owners if they: - had proper insurance on their properties to protect the guests - maintained the property according to the health and safety guidelines proscribed by law - had a license for their business activity - paid the appropriate taxes for this additional income
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Yeah! If a landlord wants to put up tourists in leaky slum houses for €250 a night that should be their right! It's their own fault for trusting an online advert, right? Hotels have rules, regulations and need to be inspected according to hotel rules in terms of safety, hygiene and price rules. Rentals have rules and regulations related to basic standards of living, pricing, and again, safety and hygiene. Airbnb allowed landlords to rent out substandard temporary housing, skirting around laws covering both hotels and rentals as well as relevant taxes. In part, they are responsible for the housing crisis.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Who checks hotels? I've been in some flea bags, and didn't know until I showed up. This is just in the USA though. If they serve food, they are check usually once a year, and that's it, and it's only the kitchen. Hotels/motels are not inspected for anything--sadily. (I've always wondered what counties/towns do with that occupancy tax they collect. I don't like Airbnb though, and agree with you for the most.)
lm28469 5y ago
Ownership isn't freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want, this is a first grade take on the topic. Laws are voted for the interest of the community (ie. country) by elected officials (elected by the people), ownership, freedoms, &c. exist within these boundaries, or as a smart person put it a long time ago: "Obedience to the law one has prescribed for oneself is freedom". It's always a battle of individual gains vs collective good, if we wanted to live like egoists cavemen we wouldn't have build organised societies.
gerikson 5y ago
A flat owner is not an atomic actor. If you purchase a flat, it's under the implicit assumption that you or your family will be the only ones occupying it. I live in Sweden and most "condo" associations (bostadsrätt) have rules regarding short-term hires and subletting. I imagine it is the same in the Netherlands.
- yreg 5y ago
  >If you purchase a flat, it's under the implicit assumption There might be such implicit assumption somewhere, but it for sure isn't a general one. I for one don't have any such expectations regarding the neighbours in my condo. (I don't live in Sweden/Netherlands though.)
  - V-2 5y ago
    I, for one, am renting, so if my neighbors expected my landlord would live at the flat with his family - then my wife, my newborn son and I are certainly failing to meet their implicit assumptions.
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  In the UK at least, the expectation would be 50/50 that you are buying to let. However, a six month minimum rental period is very different from having new neighbors every weekend.
- dagw 5y ago
  If you purchase a flat, it's under the implicit assumption that you or your family will be the only ones occupying it I also live in Sweden and that is a very Sweden specific assumption. Even just across the border in Norway that assumption doesn't hold. Sweden on the whole is very anti small private landlords and have lots of laws making it basically impossible to make money by buying a few flats and renting them out, but that is also a pretty uniquely Swedish take on the property market.
  - mrep 5y ago
    So how is there housing for people to rent? Does the government build and maintain all rental property?
growse 5y ago
> Yeah… who are the owners of a flat to decide what to do with it, eh? How do you spell "externalities"?
this-pony 5y ago
Yea... who are the neighbors of those flats to decide to protest loud and rude tourists that disturb the piece and quiet of their homes, eh?
- jikbd 5y ago
  We already have laws against that.
  - lm28469 5y ago
    And now we have a new law, I'm sure people were upset about the night time disturbances laws too
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Exactly. Flat owners can't privatize their gains while their socialized their costs. If a factory pollutes, we agreed that it should pay for the damage and control it. Why it is so difficult to understand that we just want the externalities from Airbnb to be addressed?
srmarm 5y ago
We have planning, zoning and safety laws for a reason. The owners of a flat can decide to do what they like within those parameters.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
buran77 5y ago
The owners still decide what to do with it. They just decided to stop listing their apartments because now it's very conspicuous that they are breaking the law by not paying taxes, having proper insurance, safety conditions, etc. for such an endeavor. The ones who were operating legally still advertise their listings.

Yeah… who are the owners of a flat to decide what to do with it, eh?

by jikbd 5y ago

Yeah… who are the owners of a flat to decide what to do with it, eh?

So you'd have no problem if your neighbours turned their flat into a brothel and a meth lab? Because that's the logical extension of your argument.

V-2 5y ago
I'd have the exact same problem if the owner of the flat turned into a meth lab (or throwing loud parties or whatever) did pay all the taxes.

dingdongbing 5y ago

The problem is that the locals cannot find housing themselves. Laws like this protect the common people of Amsterdam at the expense of the flat owners inalienable right to exploit them

locallost 5y ago

There are tons of limitations to what you can do with your property. E.g. you can own land but can't build a house if the land is not zoned for it. Even the meaning of property has changed over the centuries. It's no longer acceptable to own a human being, which was a contested idea not too long ago. It's the people that make a society that decide what they want the rules to be. Good for the people of Amsterdam that they don't accept man made "realities" on what can or can't be done.

DonHopkins 5y ago
If it's no longer acceptable to own a human being, that's going to be a problem for the gimp training and service industry in Amsterdam. https://www.nobleprog.nl/en/gimp/training/amsterdam https://www.nobleprog.nl/en/gimp/training/amsterdam >Gimp Training in Amsterdam >Online or onsite, instructor-led live Gimp training courses demonstrate through interactive discussion and hands-on practice the fundamentals and advanced topics of Gimp and Gimpshop. >Gimp training is available as "online live training" or "onsite live training". Online live training (aka "remote live training") is carried out by way of an interactive, remote desktop. Onsite live Gimp training can be carried out locally on customer premises in Amsterdam or in NobleProg corporate training centers in Amsterdam. https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/ShowUserReviews-g188590-d14917717-r190696953-Supperclub-Amsterdam_North_Holland_Province.html https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/ShowUserReviews-g188590-d1491... >Different and enjoyable, but expensive >Travelled to the Supper Club with my girlfriend and we had a great time. Waiters in gimp suits, rubber gloves upon arrival and comfy beds to lounge on while we ate, created a unique experience.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Mix ups like this are why I don't mention my experience with the GNU Image Manipulation Program[1] offline. [1] https://www.gimp.org/ https://www.gimp.org/
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
  I think those are two very different types of gimps.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    They use AirBnD instead.
- gerikson 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure the waiters are paid competitive rates and are free to seek other employment. So comparing them to literal slaves is disingenuous.
  - b112 5y ago
    But they're working for people, doing what they might not want to on their own free time! Slavery! I dislike how some diminish this term, with such frivolous complaints. Yes, surely the waiters were hobbled. Or beaten to death. Or starved, worked 18 hour days, etc. Totally similar!

mellavora 5y ago

I might have more sympathy for the flat owners if they: - had proper insurance on their properties to protect the guests - maintained the property according to the health and safety guidelines proscribed by law - had a license for their business activity - paid the appropriate taxes for this additional income

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Yeah! If a landlord wants to put up tourists in leaky slum houses for €250 a night that should be their right! It's their own fault for trusting an online advert, right? Hotels have rules, regulations and need to be inspected according to hotel rules in terms of safety, hygiene and price rules. Rentals have rules and regulations related to basic standards of living, pricing, and again, safety and hygiene. Airbnb allowed landlords to rent out substandard temporary housing, skirting around laws covering both hotels and rentals as well as relevant taxes. In part, they are responsible for the housing crisis.

hellbannedguy 5y ago
Who checks hotels? I've been in some flea bags, and didn't know until I showed up. This is just in the USA though. If they serve food, they are check usually once a year, and that's it, and it's only the kitchen. Hotels/motels are not inspected for anything--sadily. (I've always wondered what counties/towns do with that occupancy tax they collect. I don't like Airbnb though, and agree with you for the most.)

lm28469 5y ago

Ownership isn't freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want, this is a first grade take on the topic. Laws are voted for the interest of the community (ie. country) by elected officials (elected by the people), ownership, freedoms, &c. exist within these boundaries, or as a smart person put it a long time ago: "Obedience to the law one has prescribed for oneself is freedom". It's always a battle of individual gains vs collective good, if we wanted to live like egoists cavemen we wouldn't have build organised societies.

gerikson 5y ago

A flat owner is not an atomic actor. If you purchase a flat, it's under the implicit assumption that you or your family will be the only ones occupying it. I live in Sweden and most "condo" associations (bostadsrätt) have rules regarding short-term hires and subletting. I imagine it is the same in the Netherlands.

yreg 5y ago
>If you purchase a flat, it's under the implicit assumption There might be such implicit assumption somewhere, but it for sure isn't a general one. I for one don't have any such expectations regarding the neighbours in my condo. (I don't live in Sweden/Netherlands though.)
- V-2 5y ago
  I, for one, am renting, so if my neighbors expected my landlord would live at the flat with his family - then my wife, my newborn son and I are certainly failing to meet their implicit assumptions.
VBprogrammer 5y ago
In the UK at least, the expectation would be 50/50 that you are buying to let. However, a six month minimum rental period is very different from having new neighbors every weekend.
dagw 5y ago
If you purchase a flat, it's under the implicit assumption that you or your family will be the only ones occupying it I also live in Sweden and that is a very Sweden specific assumption. Even just across the border in Norway that assumption doesn't hold. Sweden on the whole is very anti small private landlords and have lots of laws making it basically impossible to make money by buying a few flats and renting them out, but that is also a pretty uniquely Swedish take on the property market.
- mrep 5y ago
  So how is there housing for people to rent? Does the government build and maintain all rental property?

growse 5y ago

> Yeah… who are the owners of a flat to decide what to do with it, eh? How do you spell "externalities"?

this-pony 5y ago

Yea... who are the neighbors of those flats to decide to protest loud and rude tourists that disturb the piece and quiet of their homes, eh?

jikbd 5y ago
We already have laws against that.
- lm28469 5y ago
  And now we have a new law, I'm sure people were upset about the night time disturbances laws too
elzbardico 5y ago
Exactly. Flat owners can't privatize their gains while their socialized their costs. If a factory pollutes, we agreed that it should pay for the damage and control it. Why it is so difficult to understand that we just want the externalities from Airbnb to be addressed?

srmarm 5y ago

We have planning, zoning and safety laws for a reason. The owners of a flat can decide to do what they like within those parameters.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

buran77 5y ago

The owners still decide what to do with it. They just decided to stop listing their apartments because now it's very conspicuous that they are breaking the law by not paying taxes, having proper insurance, safety conditions, etc. for such an endeavor. The ones who were operating legally still advertise their listings.