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This finger pointing style of saving the planet feels so extremely juvenile, its no longer funny. Yes, bitcoin uses a lot of energy. But so does artificial sn

This finger pointing style of saving the planet feels so extremely juvenile, its no longer funny. Yes, bitcoin uses a lot of energy. But so does artificial snow. Or gaming for that matter. What would we see if we add up all gamers on the planet? All the VR and AR nonsense that is being developed and sold? We have chips, we have electricity. You will not regulate what people are going with these chips and that electricity. And wanting to do so makes you look pretty foolish.

DonHopkins 5y ago
And what you and awrence wrote is precisely what I meant by how Bitcoin shills and addicts ignore and deny and marginalize and whataboutify its environmental impact. Thank you two for such an unwittingly perfect and prompt illustration of my point. Artificial snow doesn't cause shilling and gambling addiction, and HN isn't plagued by thousands of foaming-at-the-mouth Artificial Snow Shills who leap to its defense with rationalizations and excuses and whataboutisms and diversions like you and awrence just leaped to Bitcoin's defense. awrence> I was just emphasizing how people point fingers at Proof of Work without considering the immense negative environmental externalities generated by the current fiat system. No you weren't. Your comment didn't mention anything about Proof of Work or the current fiat system. We can all agree that it was pure unadulterated whataboutism, which proves my point (edit: as does your following reply. You even admitted yourself that what you wrote wasn't an argument for Bitcoin. It's pure whataboutism!). Thank you. awrence> Whether bitcoin is a net positive environmentally or not is a different debate. That debate is long over, and you already lost it. But you're trying to divert the conversation away from that debate you can't win, instead of offering any proof of your ridiculous theory that bitcoin is a net positive environmentally, because you and I and everyone else all know that bitcoin has a terribly negative environmental impact, and very few practical applications.
- awrence 5y ago
  You made a straight up declaration about proof of work in a pretty condescending and unsubstantiated way. I literally applied your exact framing and wording to present that approach from my point of view, and you hated that version of exactly your text. I could reply it proves the exact same point about you. I think either of those versions are not helpful to anyone, which is what I was trying to illustrate.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Even if true, I don't think calling another poster a shill (or addict) is a good tone - you could have just countered all those points without the smug "Thank you for unwittingly proving my point."; > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
- mlang23 5y ago
  Wrong. I am not defending Bitcoin. But I am opposing people like you who think they have some kind of monopoly telling other people what to use their silicon and electricity for. In fact, I couldn't care less about BTC. But I hate private police like you.
awrence 5y ago
It also demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of how the energy markets work and how as just about the only intermittent buyer of last resort, proof of work is about to positively impact the energy infrastructure in a pretty substantial way and will probably converge on tapping into exclusively stranded / wasted energy (about 30% of energy production vs less than 0.1% of global production used by pow today). If anyone is genuinely interesting in educating themselves on the topic I'd recommend the two fairly recent episodes of What Bitcoin Did with guest Harry Sudock.
- pjc50 5y ago
  Bitcoin mining is not a buyer of last resort, it's a capital asset that the owner wants to be run continuously in order to make back the capital expense, and produces no ultimately useful output.
  - awrence 5y ago
    It's a misconception to think a miner will only locate on energy sites with continuous supply. It can still make perfect sense for a miner to locate on a site with variable demand (which by the way is basically every energy production site in the world that is by design compelled to build to accommodate peak demand). What a miner will do is then negotiate energy costs (which are 80-90% of their variable costs) with the producer who is happy to sell his excess production at any cost above 0 for all excess power untapped. All it takes is enough excess production at a (much lower) price than conventional rates for this to breakeven positively vs full operation alternatives. As chips commoditize and energy trends towards 100% of all costs, miners will step into these situations exclusively. As far as your claim that bitcoin is useless that's a personal judgement. My personal judgement is that reintroducing sound fixed supply censorship resistant money to the world is of enormous benefit. But that's beyond the scope here. I don't think it's constructive to make judgements about what people value and chose to expend resources towards. If you have a problem with externalities then have a debate about that. But who are we to judge if someone wants to heat their pool? If they do so through carbon emissions then consider taxing that. The sustainability of the energy production is your issue really, not the energy use.
elliekelly 5y ago
> What would we see if we add up all gamers on the planet? A gamer can only run one machine at a time and, as much as they might try, they can’t play 24/7. It wouldn’t even come close to the cost of powering Bitcoin.
Chris2048 5y ago
> What would we see if we add up all gamers on the planet? I doubt anything significant. Also I thing btc has the potential to explode (wrt usage) in a way gaming doesn't. > All the VR and AR nonsense that is being developed and sold ^ also niche > We have chips, we have electricity mining is notably power intensive, relative to other chips/electricity usages. That said, so is heating, so maybe if miners replace their radiators?: https://news.bitcoin.com/the-crypto-heater-mines-digital-currency-while-heating-your-home/ https://news.bitcoin.com/the-crypto-heater-mines-digital-cur... It's also notable that in developing nations (which are often the most populous) there maybe little appetite for luxuries such as gaming, but plenty of reason to invest in crypto precisely because of lack of faith in government/banking infrastructure.

DonHopkins 5y ago

And what you and awrence wrote is precisely what I meant by how Bitcoin shills and addicts ignore and deny and marginalize and whataboutify its environmental impact. Thank you two for such an unwittingly perfect and prompt illustration of my point. Artificial snow doesn't cause shilling and gambling addiction, and HN isn't plagued by thousands of foaming-at-the-mouth Artificial Snow Shills who leap to its defense with rationalizations and excuses and whataboutisms and diversions like you and awrence just leaped to Bitcoin's defense. awrence> I was just emphasizing how people point fingers at Proof of Work without considering the immense negative environmental externalities generated by the current fiat system. No you weren't. Your comment didn't mention anything about Proof of Work or the current fiat system. We can all agree that it was pure unadulterated whataboutism, which proves my point (edit: as does your following reply. You even admitted yourself that what you wrote wasn't an argument for Bitcoin. It's pure whataboutism!). Thank you. awrence> Whether bitcoin is a net positive environmentally or not is a different debate. That debate is long over, and you already lost it. But you're trying to divert the conversation away from that debate you can't win, instead of offering any proof of your ridiculous theory that bitcoin is a net positive environmentally, because you and I and everyone else all know that bitcoin has a terribly negative environmental impact, and very few practical applications.

awrence 5y ago
You made a straight up declaration about proof of work in a pretty condescending and unsubstantiated way. I literally applied your exact framing and wording to present that approach from my point of view, and you hated that version of exactly your text. I could reply it proves the exact same point about you. I think either of those versions are not helpful to anyone, which is what I was trying to illustrate.
Chris2048 5y ago
Even if true, I don't think calling another poster a shill (or addict) is a good tone - you could have just countered all those points without the smug "Thank you for unwittingly proving my point."; > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
mlang23 5y ago
Wrong. I am not defending Bitcoin. But I am opposing people like you who think they have some kind of monopoly telling other people what to use their silicon and electricity for. In fact, I couldn't care less about BTC. But I hate private police like you.

awrence 5y ago

It also demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of how the energy markets work and how as just about the only intermittent buyer of last resort, proof of work is about to positively impact the energy infrastructure in a pretty substantial way and will probably converge on tapping into exclusively stranded / wasted energy (about 30% of energy production vs less than 0.1% of global production used by pow today). If anyone is genuinely interesting in educating themselves on the topic I'd recommend the two fairly recent episodes of What Bitcoin Did with guest Harry Sudock.

pjc50 5y ago
Bitcoin mining is not a buyer of last resort, it's a capital asset that the owner wants to be run continuously in order to make back the capital expense, and produces no ultimately useful output.
- awrence 5y ago
  It's a misconception to think a miner will only locate on energy sites with continuous supply. It can still make perfect sense for a miner to locate on a site with variable demand (which by the way is basically every energy production site in the world that is by design compelled to build to accommodate peak demand). What a miner will do is then negotiate energy costs (which are 80-90% of their variable costs) with the producer who is happy to sell his excess production at any cost above 0 for all excess power untapped. All it takes is enough excess production at a (much lower) price than conventional rates for this to breakeven positively vs full operation alternatives. As chips commoditize and energy trends towards 100% of all costs, miners will step into these situations exclusively. As far as your claim that bitcoin is useless that's a personal judgement. My personal judgement is that reintroducing sound fixed supply censorship resistant money to the world is of enormous benefit. But that's beyond the scope here. I don't think it's constructive to make judgements about what people value and chose to expend resources towards. If you have a problem with externalities then have a debate about that. But who are we to judge if someone wants to heat their pool? If they do so through carbon emissions then consider taxing that. The sustainability of the energy production is your issue really, not the energy use.

elliekelly 5y ago

> What would we see if we add up all gamers on the planet? A gamer can only run one machine at a time and, as much as they might try, they can’t play 24/7. It wouldn’t even come close to the cost of powering Bitcoin.

Chris2048 5y ago

> What would we see if we add up all gamers on the planet? I doubt anything significant. Also I thing btc has the potential to explode (wrt usage) in a way gaming doesn't. > All the VR and AR nonsense that is being developed and sold ^ also niche > We have chips, we have electricity mining is notably power intensive, relative to other chips/electricity usages. That said, so is heating, so maybe if miners replace their radiators?: https://news.bitcoin.com/the-crypto-heater-mines-digital-currency-while-heating-your-home/ https://news.bitcoin.com/the-crypto-heater-mines-digital-cur... It's also notable that in developing nations (which are often the most populous) there maybe little appetite for luxuries such as gaming, but plenty of reason to invest in crypto precisely because of lack of faith in government/banking infrastructure.