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Hi, I am the developer of the app in question, accessible hangman, as well as the other games I hve made for iOS. I am a blind developer myself, that is why I t

Hi, I am the developer of the app in question, accessible hangman, as well as the other games I hve made for iOS. I am a blind developer myself, that is why I thought htat making games for the blind would be the best approach for me. I chose Apple's platform, instead of Android, because of the way that SwiftUI lets me write the UI via code and change visual appearance of buttons, etc just by adding button shapes, icons, etc. Now, I do understand that every app needs to go through review every time it is updated, of course. But this is verion 2.5 of the app, this is in no way the first or second version. So yes, Apple seems to find a new issue when someone just finds a little light in their brain clicking into place, the first version had no such issue. But after 4 or 5 versions, oooooh wait, your app does not comply with blah blah blah. So, yes, I think this is unfair. Anyway, I have some news regarding this whole hing, the update was pushed through and approved finally so I'm a bit less worried, they still say I should talk to them on the phone so they're going to schedule a call with me. Let's see how this turns out. Thanks all.

cwbrandsma 5y ago
I’ve had this sort of thing happen to me as well. Often different reasons, for example: one reviewer didn’t like my permission text for camera access. Twice now I’ve had to appeal the review. Each time the appeal worked in my favor and I was able to publish again. Keep in mind, as part of the appeal process they call you, so you will need to be answering unknown calls for a while. But the people I’ve talked to that handled the appeal process were all very nice.
- LanceH 5y ago
  Well, it's nice that they eventually allow people to install software that they want on phones they own.
- Whitewoodwonder 5y ago
  Speaking of accessibility, do you know how insistent they are on calling? I'm not an iOS dev so it's a hypothetical question for me. However, I can't speak on the phone and I'm amazed by how many problems that's still causing me in the age of jetpacks and 3D printers.
  - saagarjha 5y ago
    If you miss the call they will usually drop you a note online, I hear.
bellweather49 5y ago
Sorry for the tangent, but as a blind user, how do you manage to use HackerNews? I can't get a screenreader to pronounce indentation as the indentation of the comments is done with gif images as spacers. Do you know of a HackerNews app or alternative website that works better form an accessibility poinf-of-view? (I'm using NVDA on Windows).
- AlexAndScripts 5y ago
  That's awful... Why would it be done like that?
  - kragen 5y ago
    It was easier to get it to look right.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    Like so many things, it only seems awful in retrospect. Perhaps it is time to revisit the indentation implementation Hacker News code and change it to use nested lists for threads. (I wonder how HN is implemented and how the code is updated. It could be anything from a single file lisp program running over a single text file to a whole cluster of more traditional specialized servers. (Is it rude poking around DNS looking for clues about a backend implementation?)
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      HN uses tables for layout. Switching it to use nested lists would likely be non-trivial.
      - deadA1ias 5y ago
        Actually, I think it would be rather straightforward. I'm a bit embarrassed for HN that they're still using tables and spacer gifs and see it as an intentional pushback on "caving" to modern web techniques. Despite CSS being 20 years old at this point.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I wish you luck. Thanks for writing accessible software. I am not (visibly) disabled, myself, but write software for a demographic that has a statistically high number of folks dealing with various challenges. Accessibility is a big deal for me (as is Usability –Accessibility's redheaded stepchild). I do things like provide localizable accessibility labels, as well as support for things like colorblind access, high contrast mode, and reduced transparency mode. I have also released over 20 apps in the App Store (myself), since 2012, and am the proud recipient of many app rejection notes. One of the more annoying things, is that the reviewers are required to select from a menu of rejection reasons. They can't just write "You need to add a plist row to ensure the new permission we just added is presented to the user." Instead, they have to send you some generalized "blanket" reason that includes that requirement, among a list of others that don't apply. It's easy to panic, when we get these. In my case, I sometimes need to break out a Ouija board, to figure out what they mean. Fortunately, I have had very good luck in getting folks on the phone. They still tend to "beat around the bush," but you can usually figure out what they want.
- monkeycantype 5y ago
  As the father of a red headed step child, I just want to jump in and let all red headed stepchildren know how much this father of a red headed stepchild loves his red headed stepson. Carry on...
  - jamil7 5y ago
    I’m surprised people here are still openly using that term.
    - PostThisTooFast 5y ago
      I know, right? It's so racist. The current PC nomenclature is "pallid, freckled, adopted American."
    - birdman3131 5y ago
      What would be a non volatile equivalent term? (Not being sarcastic. I don't see it as a good term I just can't think of a neutral term of similar meaning.)
juancn 5y ago
Talk to them. Apple is a huge company, but they really care about user experience (developers or otherwise), even if sometimes they fail at it. It's a staple of large corporations struggling scale processes and at the same time properly handle edge cases.
- cortesoft 5y ago
  > Talk to them How? He tried talking to them, and they rejected his appeal.
  - avree 5y ago
    They have a call scheduled with him, and have approved the app now. The App Store review process is a bit confusing - at first, he replied to the e-mail from the Reviewer, who replied saying there's nothing he can do. What he should have done is explained that there's a process by which you can get a different group, the App Review Board, to look at your appeal. That is different than replying in the "Resolution Center" or replying to the initial rejection e-mail. If Apple was more developer-friendly, which they are absolutely not as a company, you would think that all replies to rejection e-mails should go through this board. But unfortunately, that's not the case - you have to go through a different process to submit an appeal, which is what it sounds like the blog poster has done (to get a call with them scheduled.)
- camhart 5y ago
  I've tried in the past for other issues. You get on the phone with someone who has no power to help, and that's all you're told. They don't do a good job.
  - taigeair 5y ago
    Same here-- had a call with them but they don't really have much power or decision making abilities. Similar to customer service reps. Mostly script based.
- Voltage 5y ago
  I wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment of Apple. As a long time business owner and developer, I've had nothing but pain as a developer working with Apple technologies. We've created over 100 cross platform experiences, and I'm seriously considering a #FckApple tattoo.
kolanos 5y ago
Unrelated to your comment, I would love to know more about your dev setup. I am a fellow blind developer and have found XCode to be a mixed bag accessibility wise.
- ogomez92 5y ago
  I think XCode is great, you just need to be patient. I also use my friend's indentation report thing https://github.com/pitermach/IndentBeeper https://github.com/pitermach/IndentBeeper I made a VSCode extension which solves the same problem but obviosuly this does not apply to xcode. https://github.com/ogomez92/indent_reporter_vscode https://github.com/ogomez92/indent_reporter_vscode
AnthonyMouse 5y ago
> Anyway, I have some news regarding this whole hing, the update was pushed through and approved finally so I'm a bit less worried, they still say I should talk to them on the phone so they're going to schedule a call with me. This is the standard corporate playbook at this point. Screw over lots and lots of people, then opponents will find some sympathetic cases like this one and put them in the news to put pressure on the company to do something. The company fixes the one specific case that made the front page. Neither the million other instances, nor the systemic problems that led to them, are addressed. But if anyone refers to the case that made the news, the company can say that it turned out alright. "The system works." It only turns out alright in that case because it made the front page. Things are still broken everywhere else.
spoonjim 5y ago
Honestly just wanted to give you a round of applause. I can’t imagine the tenacity it takes to get to the point where you can ship an iOS app as a totally blind person.
- ogomez92 5y ago
  It used to be very bad until I contacted support about a slew of accessibility problems. can you believe that the little dropdown to create new app/new bundle was inaccessible? So was testflight......
  - ogomez92 5y ago
    Apparently we don't have many blind developers in Apple's platform, otherwise this would have been solved a lot before I came in.
binkHN 5y ago
> I chose Apple's platform, instead of Android, because of the way that SwiftUI lets me write the UI via code... You might want to look into Google's new UI toolkit, for Android, called Compose.
- lucasverra 5y ago
  will it survive ?
  - binkHN 5y ago
    I have to imagine it will; it's the native way to do declarative UIs on Android right now.
123pie123 5y ago
>they still say I should talk to them on the phone so they're going to schedule a call with me. Let's see how this turns out. Thanks all. Could you post on how the conversation went?
Grustaf 5y ago
Apple has thousands of reviewers, sometimes some of them make mistakes. The best way forward is usually to just submit again, most likely you’ll have another reviewer then that sees things differently.
- SSLy 5y ago
  Maybe they should assign reviewers who can't see to check apps like this
raxxorrax 5y ago
I don't really understand that every app needs to go through a review honestly. That is a rule we got with mobile OS and they don't really deliver on security ambitions.
ksec 5y ago
> they still say I should talk to them on the phone so they're going to schedule a call with me. Let's see how this turns out. Thanks all. Normal procedure of Apple to avoid any written communication.
V-2 5y ago
"I chose Apple's platform, instead of Android, because of the way that SwiftUI lets me write the UI via code" Unless I'm misunderstanding the feature, this is coming to Android as well (well, it already has, though it's fairly recent), in the form of Jetpack Compose.
Gulfick 5y ago
Good luck man!

cwbrandsma 5y ago

I’ve had this sort of thing happen to me as well. Often different reasons, for example: one reviewer didn’t like my permission text for camera access. Twice now I’ve had to appeal the review. Each time the appeal worked in my favor and I was able to publish again. Keep in mind, as part of the appeal process they call you, so you will need to be answering unknown calls for a while. But the people I’ve talked to that handled the appeal process were all very nice.

LanceH 5y ago
Well, it's nice that they eventually allow people to install software that they want on phones they own.
Whitewoodwonder 5y ago
Speaking of accessibility, do you know how insistent they are on calling? I'm not an iOS dev so it's a hypothetical question for me. However, I can't speak on the phone and I'm amazed by how many problems that's still causing me in the age of jetpacks and 3D printers.
- saagarjha 5y ago
  If you miss the call they will usually drop you a note online, I hear.

bellweather49 5y ago

Sorry for the tangent, but as a blind user, how do you manage to use HackerNews? I can't get a screenreader to pronounce indentation as the indentation of the comments is done with gif images as spacers. Do you know of a HackerNews app or alternative website that works better form an accessibility poinf-of-view? (I'm using NVDA on Windows).

AlexAndScripts 5y ago
That's awful... Why would it be done like that?
- kragen 5y ago
  It was easier to get it to look right.
- javajosh 5y ago
  Like so many things, it only seems awful in retrospect. Perhaps it is time to revisit the indentation implementation Hacker News code and change it to use nested lists for threads. (I wonder how HN is implemented and how the code is updated. It could be anything from a single file lisp program running over a single text file to a whole cluster of more traditional specialized servers. (Is it rude poking around DNS looking for clues about a backend implementation?)
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    HN uses tables for layout. Switching it to use nested lists would likely be non-trivial.
    - deadA1ias 5y ago
      Actually, I think it would be rather straightforward. I'm a bit embarrassed for HN that they're still using tables and spacer gifs and see it as an intentional pushback on "caving" to modern web techniques. Despite CSS being 20 years old at this point.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I wish you luck. Thanks for writing accessible software. I am not (visibly) disabled, myself, but write software for a demographic that has a statistically high number of folks dealing with various challenges. Accessibility is a big deal for me (as is Usability –Accessibility's redheaded stepchild). I do things like provide localizable accessibility labels, as well as support for things like colorblind access, high contrast mode, and reduced transparency mode. I have also released over 20 apps in the App Store (myself), since 2012, and am the proud recipient of many app rejection notes. One of the more annoying things, is that the reviewers are required to select from a menu of rejection reasons. They can't just write "You need to add a plist row to ensure the new permission we just added is presented to the user." Instead, they have to send you some generalized "blanket" reason that includes that requirement, among a list of others that don't apply. It's easy to panic, when we get these. In my case, I sometimes need to break out a Ouija board, to figure out what they mean. Fortunately, I have had very good luck in getting folks on the phone. They still tend to "beat around the bush," but you can usually figure out what they want.

monkeycantype 5y ago
As the father of a red headed step child, I just want to jump in and let all red headed stepchildren know how much this father of a red headed stepchild loves his red headed stepson. Carry on...
- jamil7 5y ago
  I’m surprised people here are still openly using that term.
  - PostThisTooFast 5y ago
    I know, right? It's so racist. The current PC nomenclature is "pallid, freckled, adopted American."
  - birdman3131 5y ago
    What would be a non volatile equivalent term? (Not being sarcastic. I don't see it as a good term I just can't think of a neutral term of similar meaning.)

juancn 5y ago

Talk to them. Apple is a huge company, but they really care about user experience (developers or otherwise), even if sometimes they fail at it. It's a staple of large corporations struggling scale processes and at the same time properly handle edge cases.

cortesoft 5y ago
> Talk to them How? He tried talking to them, and they rejected his appeal.
- avree 5y ago
  They have a call scheduled with him, and have approved the app now. The App Store review process is a bit confusing - at first, he replied to the e-mail from the Reviewer, who replied saying there's nothing he can do. What he should have done is explained that there's a process by which you can get a different group, the App Review Board, to look at your appeal. That is different than replying in the "Resolution Center" or replying to the initial rejection e-mail. If Apple was more developer-friendly, which they are absolutely not as a company, you would think that all replies to rejection e-mails should go through this board. But unfortunately, that's not the case - you have to go through a different process to submit an appeal, which is what it sounds like the blog poster has done (to get a call with them scheduled.)
camhart 5y ago
I've tried in the past for other issues. You get on the phone with someone who has no power to help, and that's all you're told. They don't do a good job.
- taigeair 5y ago
  Same here-- had a call with them but they don't really have much power or decision making abilities. Similar to customer service reps. Mostly script based.
Voltage 5y ago
I wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment of Apple. As a long time business owner and developer, I've had nothing but pain as a developer working with Apple technologies. We've created over 100 cross platform experiences, and I'm seriously considering a #FckApple tattoo.

kolanos 5y ago

Unrelated to your comment, I would love to know more about your dev setup. I am a fellow blind developer and have found XCode to be a mixed bag accessibility wise.

ogomez92 5y ago
I think XCode is great, you just need to be patient. I also use my friend's indentation report thing https://github.com/pitermach/IndentBeeper https://github.com/pitermach/IndentBeeper I made a VSCode extension which solves the same problem but obviosuly this does not apply to xcode. https://github.com/ogomez92/indent_reporter_vscode https://github.com/ogomez92/indent_reporter_vscode

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

> Anyway, I have some news regarding this whole hing, the update was pushed through and approved finally so I'm a bit less worried, they still say I should talk to them on the phone so they're going to schedule a call with me. This is the standard corporate playbook at this point. Screw over lots and lots of people, then opponents will find some sympathetic cases like this one and put them in the news to put pressure on the company to do something. The company fixes the one specific case that made the front page. Neither the million other instances, nor the systemic problems that led to them, are addressed. But if anyone refers to the case that made the news, the company can say that it turned out alright. "The system works." It only turns out alright in that case because it made the front page. Things are still broken everywhere else.

spoonjim 5y ago

Honestly just wanted to give you a round of applause. I can’t imagine the tenacity it takes to get to the point where you can ship an iOS app as a totally blind person.

ogomez92 5y ago
It used to be very bad until I contacted support about a slew of accessibility problems. can you believe that the little dropdown to create new app/new bundle was inaccessible? So was testflight......
- ogomez92 5y ago
  Apparently we don't have many blind developers in Apple's platform, otherwise this would have been solved a lot before I came in.

binkHN 5y ago

> I chose Apple's platform, instead of Android, because of the way that SwiftUI lets me write the UI via code... You might want to look into Google's new UI toolkit, for Android, called Compose.

lucasverra 5y ago
will it survive ?
- binkHN 5y ago
  I have to imagine it will; it's the native way to do declarative UIs on Android right now.

123pie123 5y ago

>they still say I should talk to them on the phone so they're going to schedule a call with me. Let's see how this turns out. Thanks all. Could you post on how the conversation went?

Grustaf 5y ago

Apple has thousands of reviewers, sometimes some of them make mistakes. The best way forward is usually to just submit again, most likely you’ll have another reviewer then that sees things differently.

SSLy 5y ago
Maybe they should assign reviewers who can't see to check apps like this

raxxorrax 5y ago

I don't really understand that every app needs to go through a review honestly. That is a rule we got with mobile OS and they don't really deliver on security ambitions.

ksec 5y ago

> they still say I should talk to them on the phone so they're going to schedule a call with me. Let's see how this turns out. Thanks all. Normal procedure of Apple to avoid any written communication.

V-2 5y ago

"I chose Apple's platform, instead of Android, because of the way that SwiftUI lets me write the UI via code" Unless I'm misunderstanding the feature, this is coming to Android as well (well, it already has, though it's fairly recent), in the form of Jetpack Compose.

Gulfick 5y ago

Good luck man!