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I feel like this is glancing over various points. Specifically that cows aren’t the only source of milk: sheep, goats, buffalo and horses have all been milked t

I feel like this is glancing over various points. Specifically that cows aren’t the only source of milk: sheep, goats, buffalo and horses have all been milked throughout history, and would have been the main source for milk in Rome. And it wasn’t historically looked down upon: major Abrahamic faiths venerated milk consumption. For some reason yogurt is also glanced over even though Oxygala (or something like it) would have definitely been consumed almost daily. It seems like this is a fairly Eurocentric view. Not even that, really, but a specific-period-of-time-in-Rome view. The Romans didn’t like butter… that’s about it. And they didn’t like it because it spoils too easily in their environment. Expanding that to dairy in general is quite a reach. Looking at what someone eats and picking on them for it still takes place in 2021 — try sending your kid with a whole cucumber to school.

shortsightedsid 5y ago
The article is definitely Eurocentric and skips South-East Asia and India. Milk, Butter, Ghee and Yogurt have been part of Indian culture from the start. E.g. references in the Vedas central to various rituals, Lord Krishna loving butter as a child, etc.. What I found really interesting is the premise that the article makes about spoilage. If dairy spoils in the warmer Mediterranean causing the inhabitants to find it unappealing, then why is it that the people living in hotter climate of India found dairy to be integral to their diet? Is it because because of Ghee which has a longer shelf life? And Yogurt too - even today - integral to any number of Indian households.
- duncan-donuts 5y ago
  I think yogurt is an exception here because it ferments quickly and doesn’t necessarily need refrigeration. A number of the Indian families I know will make yogurt every day. I suppose you could make a similar argument that butter could be made daily in small batches, but the labor involved in butter making is orders of magnitude greater.
  - canadianfella 5y ago
    It’s 100 times more effort to make butter?
- stevenjohns 5y ago
  Actually it would be exactly that — when it mentions butter it’s highly unlikely that it is referring to clarified butter.
- captain_price7 5y ago
  Am from Indian subcontinent. Butter isn't exactly that popular where I'm from (Bangladesh). Milk is usually collected at dawn and consumed in liquid form before the day is over, no need to store anything.
  - JetAlone 5y ago
    I'm looking briefly at the history of Indian cheesemaking. Seems like rennet wasn't used, but instead things like lemon juice. Paneer seems to be the first word that comes up, consistently along with a few other varities. Looks pretty tasty :P
    - floren 5y ago
      Paneer is excellent, but in all my experience tends to get treated more like chicken: as a raw material which you will cook (by frying or simmering, etc.) and add seasoning to. I've never seen it simply sliced and served on a cracker, as you might with Western cheeses. Definitely seek out and try paneer, though. Saag paneer is one of my favorites: chunks of paneer in stewed mustard greens.
  - hkarthik 5y ago
    Probably butter isn't as common where you're from, but ghee is. Ghee really made butter more viable by increasing it's shelf life, and was a bit of a technological achievement of food science.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Ghee doesn’t spoil without refrigeration like butter does, which is why it has been popular in India.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Perhaps it's just my cooler climate (UK), but (unclarified) butter lasts ages unrefrigerated. Far far longer than it takes me, alone, to consume it. It's not the first time I'm hearing this at all, so I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand.
    - noneeeed 5y ago
      It's our climate. During the really hot spells we had this year our butter melted at least partially when not kept in the fridge. The rest of the year we can keep butter out of the fridge. If it was consistently 5-10 degrees hotter that just wouldn't be an option really, at a minimum we'd need a cold pantry. I can see solid butter being way more effort to keep than it is worth.
      - galangalalgol 5y ago
        What is a normal indoor temperature there? In summer most have their AC keep the house below 27 here. We are a fan of 22 in my house but that is considered a bit wasteful. In winter we try to keep it above 18 unless it gets really cold. This last winter it got down to 8 inside.
        noneeeed 5y ago
        I'd say most people probably have their heating set to 21 to 22, which for most of the year is more than the external temperature (hence why so few houses here have AC).
        galangalalgol 5y ago
        Thats sounds like heaven. Outside we swung from -18 to 45 this year.
captain_price7 5y ago
> major Abrahamic faiths venerated milk consumption In Islam, Milk is considered the drink of paradise. There are quite a few ayats (verses) in Quran about the greatness of Milk. https://damdaran.ir/en/articles/a-glance-at-milk-from-quran-point-of-view https://damdaran.ir/en/articles/a-glance-at-milk-from-quran-...
account-5 5y ago
A whole cucumber? As in an approx foot long fruit. I'm an adult, mostly, but if a colleague pulled out a whole cucumber and started munching on it you know I'm commenting about it!
- bserge 5y ago
  Growing up we only had the short (10-15cm) variety, and indeed I was munching on them lol When I first saw the long ones I was like "wtf did they do to them?". They also taste worse imo, but that could be because of greenhouse growth.
  - namdnay 5y ago
    Ive always heard the small ones called “Lebanese cucumbers” , much nicer indeed than the “Dutch cucumbers” you usually see There are also the provencal cucumbers, which are larger but shorter than Dutch cucumbers, have a thicker rougher skin, and a much stronger taste
    - account-5 5y ago
      I had no idea there were other types of cucumbers. I think Rohl Dahl put me off cucumbers.
- watwut 5y ago
  That is because there is culture of not eating vegetables. Cucumber tastes good, is quite watery and does not have to be huge.
  - have_faith 5y ago
    > Cucumber tastes good Let's not get ahead of ourselves
    - croon 5y ago
      Both my 1 year old and my 4 year old love cucumber, tomatoes, peas, broccoli, etc, and usually eat it before anything else on the plate. It feels really weird to have to tell a 4 year old to eat some meat or rice before getting more cucumber, as they also need some calories, but here we are.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> Specifically that cows aren’t the only source of milk: sheep, goats, buffalo and horses have all been milked throughout history Sheep and goats are major sources of milk today, just not milk for direct consumption.

shortsightedsid 5y ago

The article is definitely Eurocentric and skips South-East Asia and India. Milk, Butter, Ghee and Yogurt have been part of Indian culture from the start. E.g. references in the Vedas central to various rituals, Lord Krishna loving butter as a child, etc.. What I found really interesting is the premise that the article makes about spoilage. If dairy spoils in the warmer Mediterranean causing the inhabitants to find it unappealing, then why is it that the people living in hotter climate of India found dairy to be integral to their diet? Is it because because of Ghee which has a longer shelf life? And Yogurt too - even today - integral to any number of Indian households.

duncan-donuts 5y ago
I think yogurt is an exception here because it ferments quickly and doesn’t necessarily need refrigeration. A number of the Indian families I know will make yogurt every day. I suppose you could make a similar argument that butter could be made daily in small batches, but the labor involved in butter making is orders of magnitude greater.
- canadianfella 5y ago
  It’s 100 times more effort to make butter?
stevenjohns 5y ago
Actually it would be exactly that — when it mentions butter it’s highly unlikely that it is referring to clarified butter.
captain_price7 5y ago
Am from Indian subcontinent. Butter isn't exactly that popular where I'm from (Bangladesh). Milk is usually collected at dawn and consumed in liquid form before the day is over, no need to store anything.
- JetAlone 5y ago
  I'm looking briefly at the history of Indian cheesemaking. Seems like rennet wasn't used, but instead things like lemon juice. Paneer seems to be the first word that comes up, consistently along with a few other varities. Looks pretty tasty :P
  - floren 5y ago
    Paneer is excellent, but in all my experience tends to get treated more like chicken: as a raw material which you will cook (by frying or simmering, etc.) and add seasoning to. I've never seen it simply sliced and served on a cracker, as you might with Western cheeses. Definitely seek out and try paneer, though. Saag paneer is one of my favorites: chunks of paneer in stewed mustard greens.
- hkarthik 5y ago
  Probably butter isn't as common where you're from, but ghee is. Ghee really made butter more viable by increasing it's shelf life, and was a bit of a technological achievement of food science.
xyzzyz 5y ago
Ghee doesn’t spoil without refrigeration like butter does, which is why it has been popular in India.
- OJFord 5y ago
  Perhaps it's just my cooler climate (UK), but (unclarified) butter lasts ages unrefrigerated. Far far longer than it takes me, alone, to consume it. It's not the first time I'm hearing this at all, so I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand.
  - noneeeed 5y ago
    It's our climate. During the really hot spells we had this year our butter melted at least partially when not kept in the fridge. The rest of the year we can keep butter out of the fridge. If it was consistently 5-10 degrees hotter that just wouldn't be an option really, at a minimum we'd need a cold pantry. I can see solid butter being way more effort to keep than it is worth.
    - galangalalgol 5y ago
      What is a normal indoor temperature there? In summer most have their AC keep the house below 27 here. We are a fan of 22 in my house but that is considered a bit wasteful. In winter we try to keep it above 18 unless it gets really cold. This last winter it got down to 8 inside.
      - noneeeed 5y ago
        I'd say most people probably have their heating set to 21 to 22, which for most of the year is more than the external temperature (hence why so few houses here have AC).
        galangalalgol 5y ago
        Thats sounds like heaven. Outside we swung from -18 to 45 this year.

captain_price7 5y ago

> major Abrahamic faiths venerated milk consumption In Islam, Milk is considered the drink of paradise. There are quite a few ayats (verses) in Quran about the greatness of Milk. https://damdaran.ir/en/articles/a-glance-at-milk-from-quran-point-of-view https://damdaran.ir/en/articles/a-glance-at-milk-from-quran-...

account-5 5y ago

A whole cucumber? As in an approx foot long fruit. I'm an adult, mostly, but if a colleague pulled out a whole cucumber and started munching on it you know I'm commenting about it!

bserge 5y ago
Growing up we only had the short (10-15cm) variety, and indeed I was munching on them lol When I first saw the long ones I was like "wtf did they do to them?". They also taste worse imo, but that could be because of greenhouse growth.
- namdnay 5y ago
  Ive always heard the small ones called “Lebanese cucumbers” , much nicer indeed than the “Dutch cucumbers” you usually see There are also the provencal cucumbers, which are larger but shorter than Dutch cucumbers, have a thicker rougher skin, and a much stronger taste
  - account-5 5y ago
    I had no idea there were other types of cucumbers. I think Rohl Dahl put me off cucumbers.
watwut 5y ago
That is because there is culture of not eating vegetables. Cucumber tastes good, is quite watery and does not have to be huge.
- have_faith 5y ago
  > Cucumber tastes good Let's not get ahead of ourselves
  - croon 5y ago
    Both my 1 year old and my 4 year old love cucumber, tomatoes, peas, broccoli, etc, and usually eat it before anything else on the plate. It feels really weird to have to tell a 4 year old to eat some meat or rice before getting more cucumber, as they also need some calories, but here we are.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> Specifically that cows aren’t the only source of milk: sheep, goats, buffalo and horses have all been milked throughout history Sheep and goats are major sources of milk today, just not milk for direct consumption.