6 ms·

My takeaways: 1. Open the windows as often as weather allows. 2. Don't use nonstick pans unless they're cast iron or some kind of fired enamel. 3. Use a wate

My takeaways: 1. Open the windows as often as weather allows. 2. Don't use nonstick pans unless they're cast iron or some kind of fired enamel. 3. Use a water purifier.

nradov 5y ago
In California now it seems like we have an extended wildfire season every summer where no one wants to open the windows due to bad air quality.
- sgc 5y ago
  But we are also running hepa filters inside for the same reason.
nate_meurer 5y ago
There are no mobile PFAS chemicals in nonstick cookware. Nonstick coatings are made from PTFE, which is a completely inert polymer that cannot be broken down into mobile components unless it's overheated. The fluorinated chemicals used in the manufacture of the coatings (largely surfactants) are completely removed when the coating is baked on, and they have to be or else the coating would fail. PTFE is used in medical implants. You can eat it. In no case that I'm aware of have these things resulted in detectable fluorinated compounds in someone's blood stream.
- slumdev 5y ago
  The idea that PTFE doesn't break down except at very high temperatures is not true. Breakdown begins to occur at either 200 or 260 degrees Celsius (depending on what data you're looking at). These temperatures are well within the realm of temperatures that even a home chef might encounter.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    > Breakdown begins to occur at either 200 or 260 degrees Celsius (depending on what data you're looking at). This isn't good data. The stories of PTFE coatings breaking down at less than 260 deg C are anecdotal. The most well known one comes from someone who swears their chickens were killed by coated light bulbs in a coop. The lowest temperature that has lead to bird deaths in a controlled laboratory setting is 280 deg C, which is about 580 deg F. [1] This is way freaking hot, and likely only to be reached by accident. Even in the case of accidental overheating of non-stick cookware, there have been only a few verifiable cases of injury, and certainly no fatalities. Most cases of polymer fume fever have been gleened from among workers in factories, which is remarkable considering that billions of pieces of nonstick cookware have been in use every day around the world for the past seventy years. Also note that cooking fumes from food are themselves toxic, and kill birds and lead to long term respiratory issues in humans much more easily than PTFE coatings. 1 - https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 - An Industrial Approach to Evaluation of Pyrolysis and Combustion Hazards
    - slumdev 5y ago
      > The lowest temperature that has lead to bird deaths in a controlled laboratory setting is 280 deg C "Did any birds die?" is an approach to this problem that I would expect from an undeveloped nation a hundred years ago. It is both excruciatingly short-term in focus and so imprecise that the results are useless for anyone who is not himself a rat or a canary. Your data answers the question, "To what temperature must we heat PTFE in order to kill small animals?" It does not answer the question, "What are the long-term effects on humans of short excursions outside of normal cooking temperatures?"
      - nate_meurer 5y ago
        > "Did any birds die?" is an approach to this problem that I would expect from an undeveloped nation a hundred years ago. It is both excruciatingly short-term in focus and so imprecise that the results are useless for anyone who is not himself a rat or a canary. I sort of agree, but birds do make a convenient study subject because they are exquisitely sensitive, much more so than humans. The lowest temperature at which PTFE coatings have been seen to evolve breakdown products (that I know of) is 240 deg C. Even then, the only detected product was micro-size PTFE sublimate, which can lead to what we call "fume fever", but reports of this actually happening are rare, even in factory workers who are exposed at much higher levels. The temperatures at which PTFE pyrolysis really starts to give off nasty shit are way higher [1], but even then, evidence of physiological harm is sketchy. Anecdotally, I know a few people, including my father, who have left a nonstick pan on the stove, got distracted, and burned the coating right the fuck off. Aside from the smell, no ill effects were observed. This isn't scientific at all, but if burning PTFE is that toxic, one might have expected some effects. > It does not answer the question, "What are the long-term effects on humans of short excursions outside of normal cooking temperatures?" This is true, but undertaking such a study would be both impossible and pointless, because we are exposed to millions or billions of times more fluorinated compounds from clothing, furniture, and carepeting, than we could evey hope to get from nonstick cookware, even if you overheat it regularly. Keep in mind that billions of pieces of nonstick cookware have been in use every day around the world for the past seventy years. And all time, factory workers have been exposed to the manufacturing process. That's plenty of time for problems to have been observed on some level, but they just haven't. The problems we're seeing come from the billion-fold higher levels of PFC we get from other sources. To repeat an analogy from an earlier comment, worrying about nonstick cookware is sort of like a lifeguard who works in the sun all day, but obsessively blacks out the windows in his home because he's worried about UV radiation getting in his house. It makes no sense. 1 - https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 - Waritz, R. S. (1975). An industrial approach to evaluation of pyrolysis and combustion hazards. Environmental Health Perspectives
- atom_arranger 5y ago
  There aren't any long term studies comparing people who cook with non-stick vs stainless or cast iron, so we can only guess about long term and population level effects based on limited information. I personally would not take the risk given the benefit is just a pan that things stick to less. Medical uses are more justifiable.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >I personally would not take the risk given the benefit is just a pan that things stick to less. Being able to use less cooking oils is a material benefit, especially considering the obesity rates we see in the developed world.
    - atom_arranger 5y ago
      Obesity rates going up may actually be a side effect of widespread PFAS exposure (some of which is possibly from these non-stick pans). https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/26/a-chemical-hunger-part-vi-pfas/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/26/a-chemical-hunger-p...
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    No, we have lots of long term information about nonstick cookware. People forget we've been using teflon cookware since the 1950's. There have been billions of pieces of nonstick cookware in use every day around the world for decades. The problem is that because there are so many free PFAS chemicals around us from other sources, studying the possible effects of cookware is a bit like studying whether it contains evil spirits. You won't be able to come up with a falsifiable hypothesis, because our PFC exposure via other routes is so high. Another reason long term studies aren't viable is that there is no plausible mechanism of action of toxicity from nonstick cookware under the sort of use that it almost always gets. Unless it's badly overheated, PTFE is completely stable in inert. Think about this logically: if you handle a water resistant jacket and then eat a sandwich, you'll ingest measureable quanities of PFAS. Every time kids or babies play on a stain-resistant carpetting and furniture, then ingest far greater quantities from their hands and toys. In contrast, any PFAS that remains in nonstick cookware would be on the edge of detectability. PFAS surfactants are used in the manufacture of the coatings, but it boils off when the coating is baked on, and as far as I know, no detectable PFAS has ever been verified in finished cookware. Even when agressively overheated, nonstick cookware doesn't emit PFAS. It sublimates micro-size PTFA particles, which can lead to what we call "fume fever" but reports of this actually happening are rare, even in factory workers who are exposed at much higher levels than a home cook is. So put these two things together: you are likely ingesting millions of times more PFAS from your clothes, carpets, and furniture than you ever could from nonstick cookware. Worrying about nonstick cookware is sort of like a lifeguard who works in the sun all day, but obsessively blacks out the windows in his home because he's worried about UV radiation getting in his house. It makes no sense.
- GordonS 5y ago
  With every non-stick pan I've ever owned, the coating eventually starts flaking off. Usually after less than 1 year of use. I'm pretty sure I must have ingested plenty of these coatings over the years...
  - jstanley 5y ago
    Right, and as long as you're not heating it to like 300 deg. C, it's completely inert and won't cause you any trouble.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    I have many pieces of well-used nonstick cookware well over a decade old, which are in pretty much the same condition as when I bought them. This includes cheap IKEA pans that my kids used. Some of them get used literally every day. We don't overheat them, and don't use metal utensils in them, and there's no reason they can't last forever. Regardless, you can eat the entire coating off of your pan, and there will be no detectable fluorinated compounds in your blood. PTFE is completely inert and indigestible. It is widely used in medical implants inside people's bodies, with no detectable leaching of any chemicals.
    - GordonS 5y ago
      Hmm, sounds like you've got lucky with your pans - everyone I've ever mentioned this too has had the same problem with non-stick pans! Lifetime of 6-12 months tops :/ I never did use metal utensils with them; it might be I overheated some, but certainly not all, and a pan isn't much use if you can't get it hot!
      - nate_meurer 5y ago
        I don't think I'm lucky, but there is definitely a cost. The cost is that I'm a fucking asshole about my nonstick pots and pans. I keep my stash separate from the rest of the family, I get grumpy if I catch anyone using it, and god forbid anyone scratches my shit. I buy separate stuff for my kids, and my wife has her own favorite pan. Of course there's no need to be an asshole like me. But I think it's eminently doable for everyone. I do believe keeping the temperature down is key to longevity, especially for cheaper cookware with simpler two-layer nonstick coating systems. I have a lot of these too, and I just avoid going over 300 deg F or so. No problems so far.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  PTFE burns at high but commonly achieved cooking temperatures, the result is a fine particulate in the air. You have to be careful (and many aren’t) to only use nonstick for low to medium temperature cooking.
- someguy321 5y ago
  I think PTFE pans are overheated more often than we expect.
- kaitai 5y ago
  People "overheat" their cookware all the time. Do you know anyone who measures the temp of the surface of their cookware? Teflon and nonstick coatings kill birds (house pets) when overheated. A nonstick pan in the oven to catch the drippings from your chicken baking at 400 or 425 can kill your parrot quickly. A nonstick wok left unattended for a few minutes during a high-heat stir fry easily reaches 400, enough to kill your cockatiel. And as another poster has noted, those coatings always start flaking off. Why buy something that produces fumes enough to kill your house pets and also has planned obsolescence built in when you can get a cast iron pan that's indestructible and will increase your iron intake a bit? It's not hard to develop a great seasoning on it that's essentially non-stick. I use cast iron for almost everything, and enamel for a few remaining applications.
  - yabones 5y ago
    Cast iron pans are wonderful. I inherited one that was purchased originally in 1929. It's used every day or two to cook eggs for breakfast, and as I've found over the years butter is fantastic for keeping the seasoning in great shape. It's more non-stick than teflon, just a little shake is enough to send my eggs sliding to the other side of the pan. All it takes is discipline. Best part is, this same pan will probably live well beyond 100 years. Possibly 150 or more. How many household items last that long? This is what we've lost with our culture's planned obsolescence, products that last for generations. It my have been expensive back then, but that was the last person in my family to buy this type of cookware. Safe, long lasting products isn't an innovation, it's a very welcomed regression.
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      I agree, I love vintage cookware. My favorite pans are a bunch of All-Clad LTD's I assembled from Ebay over the years. I use them for omelettes and french toast. Super thick aluminum clad with a stainless cooking surface, made sometime in the 1980s. They're as tough as cast iron, but they heat way more evenly, they're much lighter, and you don't have to worry about hurting the seasoning. With cast iron, you can easily destroy the seasoning by overheating the pan, or if your mother who doesn't know how to care for cast iron puts it in the dishwasher. I put my All-Clads in the sink and scrub them with a steel tuffy. They're probably the most indestructable tools I own.
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
Sure but this puts the burden on the citizen. I'm all about taking your health into your hands, but it won't hold on the long run. We also need strong policies against this.
- slumdev 5y ago
  Yeah, I agree that these things probably ought to be legislated out of existence, but I don't hold my breath on it.
meristohm 5y ago
Contrary responses aside, these three actions seem healthy. I’ll add that I’d like to see regulation towards cleaner air, water, and land, so that avoidance/mitigation is less necessary.

My takeaways: 1. Open the windows as often as weather allows. 2. Don't use nonstick pans unless they're cast iron or some kind of fired enamel. 3. Use a water purifier.

nradov 5y ago

In California now it seems like we have an extended wildfire season every summer where no one wants to open the windows due to bad air quality.

sgc 5y ago
But we are also running hepa filters inside for the same reason.

nate_meurer 5y ago

There are no mobile PFAS chemicals in nonstick cookware. Nonstick coatings are made from PTFE, which is a completely inert polymer that cannot be broken down into mobile components unless it's overheated. The fluorinated chemicals used in the manufacture of the coatings (largely surfactants) are completely removed when the coating is baked on, and they have to be or else the coating would fail. PTFE is used in medical implants. You can eat it. In no case that I'm aware of have these things resulted in detectable fluorinated compounds in someone's blood stream.

slumdev 5y ago
The idea that PTFE doesn't break down except at very high temperatures is not true. Breakdown begins to occur at either 200 or 260 degrees Celsius (depending on what data you're looking at). These temperatures are well within the realm of temperatures that even a home chef might encounter.
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  > Breakdown begins to occur at either 200 or 260 degrees Celsius (depending on what data you're looking at). This isn't good data. The stories of PTFE coatings breaking down at less than 260 deg C are anecdotal. The most well known one comes from someone who swears their chickens were killed by coated light bulbs in a coop. The lowest temperature that has lead to bird deaths in a controlled laboratory setting is 280 deg C, which is about 580 deg F. [1] This is way freaking hot, and likely only to be reached by accident. Even in the case of accidental overheating of non-stick cookware, there have been only a few verifiable cases of injury, and certainly no fatalities. Most cases of polymer fume fever have been gleened from among workers in factories, which is remarkable considering that billions of pieces of nonstick cookware have been in use every day around the world for the past seventy years. Also note that cooking fumes from food are themselves toxic, and kill birds and lead to long term respiratory issues in humans much more easily than PTFE coatings. 1 - https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 - An Industrial Approach to Evaluation of Pyrolysis and Combustion Hazards
  - slumdev 5y ago
    > The lowest temperature that has lead to bird deaths in a controlled laboratory setting is 280 deg C "Did any birds die?" is an approach to this problem that I would expect from an undeveloped nation a hundred years ago. It is both excruciatingly short-term in focus and so imprecise that the results are useless for anyone who is not himself a rat or a canary. Your data answers the question, "To what temperature must we heat PTFE in order to kill small animals?" It does not answer the question, "What are the long-term effects on humans of short excursions outside of normal cooking temperatures?"
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      > "Did any birds die?" is an approach to this problem that I would expect from an undeveloped nation a hundred years ago. It is both excruciatingly short-term in focus and so imprecise that the results are useless for anyone who is not himself a rat or a canary. I sort of agree, but birds do make a convenient study subject because they are exquisitely sensitive, much more so than humans. The lowest temperature at which PTFE coatings have been seen to evolve breakdown products (that I know of) is 240 deg C. Even then, the only detected product was micro-size PTFE sublimate, which can lead to what we call "fume fever", but reports of this actually happening are rare, even in factory workers who are exposed at much higher levels. The temperatures at which PTFE pyrolysis really starts to give off nasty shit are way higher [1], but even then, evidence of physiological harm is sketchy. Anecdotally, I know a few people, including my father, who have left a nonstick pan on the stove, got distracted, and burned the coating right the fuck off. Aside from the smell, no ill effects were observed. This isn't scientific at all, but if burning PTFE is that toxic, one might have expected some effects. > It does not answer the question, "What are the long-term effects on humans of short excursions outside of normal cooking temperatures?" This is true, but undertaking such a study would be both impossible and pointless, because we are exposed to millions or billions of times more fluorinated compounds from clothing, furniture, and carepeting, than we could evey hope to get from nonstick cookware, even if you overheat it regularly. Keep in mind that billions of pieces of nonstick cookware have been in use every day around the world for the past seventy years. And all time, factory workers have been exposed to the manufacturing process. That's plenty of time for problems to have been observed on some level, but they just haven't. The problems we're seeing come from the billion-fold higher levels of PFC we get from other sources. To repeat an analogy from an earlier comment, worrying about nonstick cookware is sort of like a lifeguard who works in the sun all day, but obsessively blacks out the windows in his home because he's worried about UV radiation getting in his house. It makes no sense. 1 - https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 - Waritz, R. S. (1975). An industrial approach to evaluation of pyrolysis and combustion hazards. Environmental Health Perspectives
atom_arranger 5y ago
There aren't any long term studies comparing people who cook with non-stick vs stainless or cast iron, so we can only guess about long term and population level effects based on limited information. I personally would not take the risk given the benefit is just a pan that things stick to less. Medical uses are more justifiable.
- gruez 5y ago
  >I personally would not take the risk given the benefit is just a pan that things stick to less. Being able to use less cooking oils is a material benefit, especially considering the obesity rates we see in the developed world.
  - atom_arranger 5y ago
    Obesity rates going up may actually be a side effect of widespread PFAS exposure (some of which is possibly from these non-stick pans). https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/26/a-chemical-hunger-part-vi-pfas/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/26/a-chemical-hunger-p...
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  No, we have lots of long term information about nonstick cookware. People forget we've been using teflon cookware since the 1950's. There have been billions of pieces of nonstick cookware in use every day around the world for decades. The problem is that because there are so many free PFAS chemicals around us from other sources, studying the possible effects of cookware is a bit like studying whether it contains evil spirits. You won't be able to come up with a falsifiable hypothesis, because our PFC exposure via other routes is so high. Another reason long term studies aren't viable is that there is no plausible mechanism of action of toxicity from nonstick cookware under the sort of use that it almost always gets. Unless it's badly overheated, PTFE is completely stable in inert. Think about this logically: if you handle a water resistant jacket and then eat a sandwich, you'll ingest measureable quanities of PFAS. Every time kids or babies play on a stain-resistant carpetting and furniture, then ingest far greater quantities from their hands and toys. In contrast, any PFAS that remains in nonstick cookware would be on the edge of detectability. PFAS surfactants are used in the manufacture of the coatings, but it boils off when the coating is baked on, and as far as I know, no detectable PFAS has ever been verified in finished cookware. Even when agressively overheated, nonstick cookware doesn't emit PFAS. It sublimates micro-size PTFA particles, which can lead to what we call "fume fever" but reports of this actually happening are rare, even in factory workers who are exposed at much higher levels than a home cook is. So put these two things together: you are likely ingesting millions of times more PFAS from your clothes, carpets, and furniture than you ever could from nonstick cookware. Worrying about nonstick cookware is sort of like a lifeguard who works in the sun all day, but obsessively blacks out the windows in his home because he's worried about UV radiation getting in his house. It makes no sense.
GordonS 5y ago
With every non-stick pan I've ever owned, the coating eventually starts flaking off. Usually after less than 1 year of use. I'm pretty sure I must have ingested plenty of these coatings over the years...
- jstanley 5y ago
  Right, and as long as you're not heating it to like 300 deg. C, it's completely inert and won't cause you any trouble.
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  I have many pieces of well-used nonstick cookware well over a decade old, which are in pretty much the same condition as when I bought them. This includes cheap IKEA pans that my kids used. Some of them get used literally every day. We don't overheat them, and don't use metal utensils in them, and there's no reason they can't last forever. Regardless, you can eat the entire coating off of your pan, and there will be no detectable fluorinated compounds in your blood. PTFE is completely inert and indigestible. It is widely used in medical implants inside people's bodies, with no detectable leaching of any chemicals.
  - GordonS 5y ago
    Hmm, sounds like you've got lucky with your pans - everyone I've ever mentioned this too has had the same problem with non-stick pans! Lifetime of 6-12 months tops :/ I never did use metal utensils with them; it might be I overheated some, but certainly not all, and a pan isn't much use if you can't get it hot!
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      I don't think I'm lucky, but there is definitely a cost. The cost is that I'm a fucking asshole about my nonstick pots and pans. I keep my stash separate from the rest of the family, I get grumpy if I catch anyone using it, and god forbid anyone scratches my shit. I buy separate stuff for my kids, and my wife has her own favorite pan. Of course there's no need to be an asshole like me. But I think it's eminently doable for everyone. I do believe keeping the temperature down is key to longevity, especially for cheaper cookware with simpler two-layer nonstick coating systems. I have a lot of these too, and I just avoid going over 300 deg F or so. No problems so far.
colechristensen 5y ago
PTFE burns at high but commonly achieved cooking temperatures, the result is a fine particulate in the air. You have to be careful (and many aren’t) to only use nonstick for low to medium temperature cooking.
someguy321 5y ago
I think PTFE pans are overheated more often than we expect.
kaitai 5y ago
People "overheat" their cookware all the time. Do you know anyone who measures the temp of the surface of their cookware? Teflon and nonstick coatings kill birds (house pets) when overheated. A nonstick pan in the oven to catch the drippings from your chicken baking at 400 or 425 can kill your parrot quickly. A nonstick wok left unattended for a few minutes during a high-heat stir fry easily reaches 400, enough to kill your cockatiel. And as another poster has noted, those coatings always start flaking off. Why buy something that produces fumes enough to kill your house pets and also has planned obsolescence built in when you can get a cast iron pan that's indestructible and will increase your iron intake a bit? It's not hard to develop a great seasoning on it that's essentially non-stick. I use cast iron for almost everything, and enamel for a few remaining applications.
- yabones 5y ago
  Cast iron pans are wonderful. I inherited one that was purchased originally in 1929. It's used every day or two to cook eggs for breakfast, and as I've found over the years butter is fantastic for keeping the seasoning in great shape. It's more non-stick than teflon, just a little shake is enough to send my eggs sliding to the other side of the pan. All it takes is discipline. Best part is, this same pan will probably live well beyond 100 years. Possibly 150 or more. How many household items last that long? This is what we've lost with our culture's planned obsolescence, products that last for generations. It my have been expensive back then, but that was the last person in my family to buy this type of cookware. Safe, long lasting products isn't an innovation, it's a very welcomed regression.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    I agree, I love vintage cookware. My favorite pans are a bunch of All-Clad LTD's I assembled from Ebay over the years. I use them for omelettes and french toast. Super thick aluminum clad with a stainless cooking surface, made sometime in the 1980s. They're as tough as cast iron, but they heat way more evenly, they're much lighter, and you don't have to worry about hurting the seasoning. With cast iron, you can easily destroy the seasoning by overheating the pan, or if your mother who doesn't know how to care for cast iron puts it in the dishwasher. I put my All-Clads in the sink and scrub them with a steel tuffy. They're probably the most indestructable tools I own.

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

Sure but this puts the burden on the citizen. I'm all about taking your health into your hands, but it won't hold on the long run. We also need strong policies against this.

slumdev 5y ago
Yeah, I agree that these things probably ought to be legislated out of existence, but I don't hold my breath on it.

meristohm 5y ago

Contrary responses aside, these three actions seem healthy. I’ll add that I’d like to see regulation towards cleaner air, water, and land, so that avoidance/mitigation is less necessary.