10 ms·

German parliament pens letter to Apple with concerns over CSAM detection system

430 points by Darthy 5y ago

watt 5y ago
I don't feel like carrying a little police man in my pocket. Unless CSAM is dead and buried, Apple is dead to me.
- Bellamy 5y ago
  I already sold my apple stocks and try to leave the lock-in they have on me and my devices.
  - moooo99 5y ago
    The tragic but most likely outcome of this debate will be: most people just won't care, they will continue to buy and use Apple hardware as if nothing happened. The average consumer does only hear about the idea of protecting kids and approves this noble goal. Most consumers just do not care about the consequences this can have on their privacy. If people would really care about their privacy, Facebook and Instagram wouldn't be as big as they are, nobody would use facebook messenger for communication and a lot fewer people would use Windows and Android. Despite the warning of privacy advocates, experienced users, etc, people don't seem to care and I doubt this will change with the CSAM debate.
    - mnsc 5y ago
      I could argue that this actually might be different since Facebook and Instagram is opt-in. I think regular users understand that if they willingly upload a picture to a social media site, even if it is in a DM, it _might_ be "hacked", so you can choose not to upload that how-the-fuck-do-i-look-naked-from-behind mirror selfie and be completely confident that no-one will see this (cloud sync off). But now, if the general public will find out that every photo you take, period, is "analyzed", maybe people will start choosing otherwise. I think we will have to see.
      - moooo99 5y ago
        On could argue that this is scanning is also opt in, it requires you to purchase an iPhone. Also, at least according to Apple's provided material, the scanning only affects images which are uploaded to the iCloud, so not every image on the device. However, how long that restriction actually holds once the system is in place is questionable. Also, the risk of abuse by authorities as well the fact that there is no way to monitor the system as a user is a huge part of the problem.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  I don't either. But my personal boycotts of mainstream social media, advertising, and weaponised viral clickbait have had absolutely no effect on the general adoption of such practices. Collective action and regulation are what is required here. Parliaments are the effective mechanism. Possibly class-action suits.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I usually argue for Apple, but in this case I fully agree with CSAM hate. This isn't Minority Report.
  - majewsky 5y ago
    Without arguing the merit of your personal position, "this isn't Minority Report" is a terrible argument. Minority Report is about pre-crime. If someone has CSAM on their phone (and it's not a false positive), they are already actively committing a crime.
    - Santosh83 5y ago
      Ridiculous. So if I use malware to insert CSAM on your iPhone, you're "actively" committing a crime? CSA is a crime, but a person suspected of that must be properly tried through the judicial process. Private entities can also monitor what passes through their premises, but they have no business planting continuous surveillance functionality on your premises without a court warrant. Everyone knows that the worst CSA happen in lawless countries and regions. This is mere pretext to build generalised surveillance infrastructure, or more importantly, normalise the concept of being continuously surveilled by faceless entities. That is the big push society is heading generally towards. It started with CCTV and will end with brain implants, unless society decided enough is enough at some point instead of endless hair-splitting.
      - birdyrooster 5y ago
        We will have to try brain implants at least once to know it’s a bad choice
      - nonbirithm 5y ago
        The law still views willful possession as a crime, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I agree that does open up the possibility that you could frame somebody by planting CSAM on their device. Building mass surveillance features into the device only makes that easier to accomplish than before. But everybody agrees that outlawing the possession of CSAM in general is the right thing to do. This was the case even in a time when the Internet was still in its infancy.
- ilogik 5y ago
  holy fucking shit, so many idiots in this thread that have no idea what they're talking about. there are plenty of reasons to hate apple. this isn't one of them
  - dang 5y ago
    Please make your substantive points without fulminating or calling names, no matter how wrong other people are or you feel they are. Believe me, I know how frustrating it is when nearly everyone on the internet is wrong (or you feel like they are), but comments like this don't help, they just make things worse. If you want to patiently provide correct information, in a form people can actually learn from, that's great. If you don't want to do that, not posting is also an option. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - ilogik 5y ago
      I user to come to HN for interesting discussions. Now it's pretty much all BS. "Apple is looking at my pictures, I'm switching to Android." Nobody stops to think before saying something stupid. it's 1am, and this has been discussed to death. Good night
      - dang 5y ago
        Other people posting BS is a poor reason to post more BS. That only makes things worse. Better options are (1) post something thoughtful and substantive, or (2) don't post.
        ilogik 5y ago
        The main concern seems to be that people are afraid that other governments can use this technology to have iPhones scan for other types of images. (The "Tank Man" photo is often given as an example) Apple say they won't do that, but it's perfectly healthy to not trust Apple on that aspect. But the fact that they're scanning for CSAM images doesn't change the above in any way. If they back down and stop scanning for CSAM images, that won't have any effect on the above. The governments can still pressure them to add this to their phones. Or even worse. Maybe they have. It's like people disabling exposure notifications because they don't trust Apple. If that's the case, why do you trust the toggle to actually do anything? You either trust Apple that they won't bow down to pressure, or you don't, in which case, buy a phone from a company that you trust more. As someone said on a podcast recently, this isn't a technological problem, it's a government problem. The solution is to vote, not to change your mobile phone.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  I agree with this sentiment fully. Apple's CSAM is laying the foundation for a surveillance network to spy on its users - (Apple is Preparing to Comply with Indian Govt's New IT Rules - iPhones (and other Apple devices) will soon start deploying built-in surveillance to spy on its users. https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0/apple_is_preparing_to_comply_with_indian_govts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0... ).
- ByteWelder 5y ago
  Even if they end up canning the idea, they have been gaslighting their user base in the past week or so. Their CSAM implementation betrays their earlier statements on privacy, so they are dead to me already. Since a few days, I have finished switching over from a Mac Mini (M1), iPhone and Watch to a desktop (with a proper graphics card, unlike the M1), a phone with LineageOS (and microG, so no/little Google) and an Amazfit GTR 2e watch. Apple is missing out on 3-4k in purchases from me in this year alone.
  - intricatedetail 5y ago
    Same here I was going to buy an iPhone and waiting for Mac update, but now I am going buy Xperia and still researching a laptop.
    - ByteWelder 5y ago
      If you're still in doubt about the phone, I recommend OnePlus devices, because they seem to generally work well with the microG variant of LineageOS (https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/), which allows you to break free from Google too. Alternatively, Pixel devices also support a wide range of ROMs, including LineageOS. With microG to replace Google Services, you still get push notifications, but without having to log in with a Google account. I've got a OnePlus 8T for 3 days now. The OnePlus 9 sadly isn't yet supported by LineageOS, and the 9 Pro has some downsides that I don't like.
      - intricatedetail 5y ago
        I have a strict rule to not buy anything made in China if I can get an alternative from a different country so my choices are quite limited.
        foepys 5y ago
        Are there any smartphones definitely made outside of China? I know that Apple has a new factory in India (or similar) but still does some production in China.
- idunnoman 5y ago
  Agreed. I bought a pine phone when they announced it. Looking forward to leaning into it when it arrives. I know there will be some pain, but I'm getting off the ride here.
- max_ 5y ago
  The real problem is that their are no real alternatives
88840-8855 5y ago
unfortunately it won't change anything edit: i am being downvoted automatically. i think, some very special person, has a script running to downvote me. LOL, get a life.
- zeepzeep 5y ago
  We can hope...
- ginko 5y ago
  I downvoted you because I disagree with your defeatism.
  - 88840-8855 5y ago
    I disagree with you, too.
    - dang 5y ago
      Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments? You've been doing it repeatedly, and it's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- TravelPiglet 5y ago
  Obviously good for Apple to have as an example for rejecting these surveillance pushes from authorities in the future.
PikachuEXE 5y ago
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28215621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28215621
ribit 5y ago
I think it's a bit funny that German government is complaining to Apple about a feature that is not even going to be active in Europe while simultaneously considering a law that requires communication providers to scan all emails and messages for inappropriate content...
- bildung 5y ago
  It doesn't matter whether the feature is active right now - its presence means it is only a matter of time until agencies will want to have access.
  - ribit 5y ago
    And that's why we need to push our respective representatives to adopt laws that prohibit any kind of personal content scanning without a warrant. Personally, I would be ok if this scanning were applied to cloud-stored data that is shared to the public (e.g. social media platforms), but that's about it. From the technical standpoint, Apple's implementation seems sound, although it does raise strong concerns about the future applications of the technology. Strong privacy laws can prevent abuse.
- cheschire 5y ago
  This is hardly surprising. Governments are not unified bodies, they are inherently built of groups of at worst directly opposing or at best mildly aligned individuals claiming membership to some political ideal and/or club.
- HMH 5y ago
  You are right, I'd be pretty surprised if such a statement came from the government itself. But this complaint is actually only from some members of the parliament belonging to the Digital Agenda committee with the chairman being a member of the opposition.
  - type0 5y ago
    Yeah, in this case the difference between parliament and the government is substantial and OP doesn't seem to know there is one.
anothernewdude 5y ago
Can't wait for CSAM to cause or enable some repeat of the icloud issues a while back.
superkuh 5y ago
Can we stop calling it "CSAM detection system" and simply call it what it is, "the backdoor"?
gjsman-1000 5y ago
For everyone wondering why Apple is doing this scanning, remember there was a certain "EARN IT Act" that nearly passed in the US last year. This is a preferable alternative to that potentially coming back.

430 points by Darthy 5y ago

watt 5y ago

I don't feel like carrying a little police man in my pocket. Unless CSAM is dead and buried, Apple is dead to me.

Bellamy 5y ago
I already sold my apple stocks and try to leave the lock-in they have on me and my devices.
- moooo99 5y ago
  The tragic but most likely outcome of this debate will be: most people just won't care, they will continue to buy and use Apple hardware as if nothing happened. The average consumer does only hear about the idea of protecting kids and approves this noble goal. Most consumers just do not care about the consequences this can have on their privacy. If people would really care about their privacy, Facebook and Instagram wouldn't be as big as they are, nobody would use facebook messenger for communication and a lot fewer people would use Windows and Android. Despite the warning of privacy advocates, experienced users, etc, people don't seem to care and I doubt this will change with the CSAM debate.
  - mnsc 5y ago
    I could argue that this actually might be different since Facebook and Instagram is opt-in. I think regular users understand that if they willingly upload a picture to a social media site, even if it is in a DM, it _might_ be "hacked", so you can choose not to upload that how-the-fuck-do-i-look-naked-from-behind mirror selfie and be completely confident that no-one will see this (cloud sync off). But now, if the general public will find out that every photo you take, period, is "analyzed", maybe people will start choosing otherwise. I think we will have to see.
    - moooo99 5y ago
      On could argue that this is scanning is also opt in, it requires you to purchase an iPhone. Also, at least according to Apple's provided material, the scanning only affects images which are uploaded to the iCloud, so not every image on the device. However, how long that restriction actually holds once the system is in place is questionable. Also, the risk of abuse by authorities as well the fact that there is no way to monitor the system as a user is a huge part of the problem.
dredmorbius 5y ago
I don't either. But my personal boycotts of mainstream social media, advertising, and weaponised viral clickbait have had absolutely no effect on the general adoption of such practices. Collective action and regulation are what is required here. Parliaments are the effective mechanism. Possibly class-action suits.
pjmlp 5y ago
I usually argue for Apple, but in this case I fully agree with CSAM hate. This isn't Minority Report.
- majewsky 5y ago
  Without arguing the merit of your personal position, "this isn't Minority Report" is a terrible argument. Minority Report is about pre-crime. If someone has CSAM on their phone (and it's not a false positive), they are already actively committing a crime.
  - Santosh83 5y ago
    Ridiculous. So if I use malware to insert CSAM on your iPhone, you're "actively" committing a crime? CSA is a crime, but a person suspected of that must be properly tried through the judicial process. Private entities can also monitor what passes through their premises, but they have no business planting continuous surveillance functionality on your premises without a court warrant. Everyone knows that the worst CSA happen in lawless countries and regions. This is mere pretext to build generalised surveillance infrastructure, or more importantly, normalise the concept of being continuously surveilled by faceless entities. That is the big push society is heading generally towards. It started with CCTV and will end with brain implants, unless society decided enough is enough at some point instead of endless hair-splitting.
    - birdyrooster 5y ago
      We will have to try brain implants at least once to know it’s a bad choice
    - nonbirithm 5y ago
      The law still views willful possession as a crime, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I agree that does open up the possibility that you could frame somebody by planting CSAM on their device. Building mass surveillance features into the device only makes that easier to accomplish than before. But everybody agrees that outlawing the possession of CSAM in general is the right thing to do. This was the case even in a time when the Internet was still in its infancy.
ilogik 5y ago
holy fucking shit, so many idiots in this thread that have no idea what they're talking about. there are plenty of reasons to hate apple. this isn't one of them
- dang 5y ago
  Please make your substantive points without fulminating or calling names, no matter how wrong other people are or you feel they are. Believe me, I know how frustrating it is when nearly everyone on the internet is wrong (or you feel like they are), but comments like this don't help, they just make things worse. If you want to patiently provide correct information, in a form people can actually learn from, that's great. If you don't want to do that, not posting is also an option. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - ilogik 5y ago
    I user to come to HN for interesting discussions. Now it's pretty much all BS. "Apple is looking at my pictures, I'm switching to Android." Nobody stops to think before saying something stupid. it's 1am, and this has been discussed to death. Good night
    - dang 5y ago
      Other people posting BS is a poor reason to post more BS. That only makes things worse. Better options are (1) post something thoughtful and substantive, or (2) don't post.
      - ilogik 5y ago
        The main concern seems to be that people are afraid that other governments can use this technology to have iPhones scan for other types of images. (The "Tank Man" photo is often given as an example) Apple say they won't do that, but it's perfectly healthy to not trust Apple on that aspect. But the fact that they're scanning for CSAM images doesn't change the above in any way. If they back down and stop scanning for CSAM images, that won't have any effect on the above. The governments can still pressure them to add this to their phones. Or even worse. Maybe they have. It's like people disabling exposure notifications because they don't trust Apple. If that's the case, why do you trust the toggle to actually do anything? You either trust Apple that they won't bow down to pressure, or you don't, in which case, buy a phone from a company that you trust more. As someone said on a podcast recently, this isn't a technological problem, it's a government problem. The solution is to vote, not to change your mobile phone.
webmobdev 5y ago
I agree with this sentiment fully. Apple's CSAM is laying the foundation for a surveillance network to spy on its users - (Apple is Preparing to Comply with Indian Govt's New IT Rules - iPhones (and other Apple devices) will soon start deploying built-in surveillance to spy on its users. https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0/apple_is_preparing_to_comply_with_indian_govts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0... ).
ByteWelder 5y ago
Even if they end up canning the idea, they have been gaslighting their user base in the past week or so. Their CSAM implementation betrays their earlier statements on privacy, so they are dead to me already. Since a few days, I have finished switching over from a Mac Mini (M1), iPhone and Watch to a desktop (with a proper graphics card, unlike the M1), a phone with LineageOS (and microG, so no/little Google) and an Amazfit GTR 2e watch. Apple is missing out on 3-4k in purchases from me in this year alone.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  Same here I was going to buy an iPhone and waiting for Mac update, but now I am going buy Xperia and still researching a laptop.
  - ByteWelder 5y ago
    If you're still in doubt about the phone, I recommend OnePlus devices, because they seem to generally work well with the microG variant of LineageOS (https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/), which allows you to break free from Google too. Alternatively, Pixel devices also support a wide range of ROMs, including LineageOS. With microG to replace Google Services, you still get push notifications, but without having to log in with a Google account. I've got a OnePlus 8T for 3 days now. The OnePlus 9 sadly isn't yet supported by LineageOS, and the 9 Pro has some downsides that I don't like.
    - intricatedetail 5y ago
      I have a strict rule to not buy anything made in China if I can get an alternative from a different country so my choices are quite limited.
      - foepys 5y ago
        Are there any smartphones definitely made outside of China? I know that Apple has a new factory in India (or similar) but still does some production in China.
idunnoman 5y ago
Agreed. I bought a pine phone when they announced it. Looking forward to leaning into it when it arrives. I know there will be some pain, but I'm getting off the ride here.
max_ 5y ago
The real problem is that their are no real alternatives

88840-8855 5y ago

unfortunately it won't change anything edit: i am being downvoted automatically. i think, some very special person, has a script running to downvote me. LOL, get a life.

zeepzeep 5y ago
We can hope...
ginko 5y ago
I downvoted you because I disagree with your defeatism.
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  I disagree with you, too.
  - dang 5y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments? You've been doing it repeatedly, and it's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
TravelPiglet 5y ago
Obviously good for Apple to have as an example for rejecting these surveillance pushes from authorities in the future.

PikachuEXE 5y ago

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28215621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28215621

ribit 5y ago

I think it's a bit funny that German government is complaining to Apple about a feature that is not even going to be active in Europe while simultaneously considering a law that requires communication providers to scan all emails and messages for inappropriate content...

bildung 5y ago
It doesn't matter whether the feature is active right now - its presence means it is only a matter of time until agencies will want to have access.
- ribit 5y ago
  And that's why we need to push our respective representatives to adopt laws that prohibit any kind of personal content scanning without a warrant. Personally, I would be ok if this scanning were applied to cloud-stored data that is shared to the public (e.g. social media platforms), but that's about it. From the technical standpoint, Apple's implementation seems sound, although it does raise strong concerns about the future applications of the technology. Strong privacy laws can prevent abuse.
cheschire 5y ago
This is hardly surprising. Governments are not unified bodies, they are inherently built of groups of at worst directly opposing or at best mildly aligned individuals claiming membership to some political ideal and/or club.
HMH 5y ago
You are right, I'd be pretty surprised if such a statement came from the government itself. But this complaint is actually only from some members of the parliament belonging to the Digital Agenda committee with the chairman being a member of the opposition.
- type0 5y ago
  Yeah, in this case the difference between parliament and the government is substantial and OP doesn't seem to know there is one.

anothernewdude 5y ago

Can't wait for CSAM to cause or enable some repeat of the icloud issues a while back.

superkuh 5y ago

Can we stop calling it "CSAM detection system" and simply call it what it is, "the backdoor"?

gjsman-1000 5y ago

For everyone wondering why Apple is doing this scanning, remember there was a certain "EARN IT Act" that nearly passed in the US last year. This is a preferable alternative to that potentially coming back.