7 ms·

So much this. Practically any other option is better than Python for web development if you're looking for performance.

by nsizx 5y ago

void_mint 5y ago
By this logic, why not Java, C++, Rust, Go, C#? They’re all web-capable and blow the doors off PHP, Python, etc.
- sdze 5y ago
  C#, Java, C++ need application servers, no? "Serverless" scales infinitely due to its simpler request/response lifecycle.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    Serverless is too overloaded a term to have any meaning. I'm not really seeing how Python or PHP "scales infinitely" in any way that C#, Java, C++ couldn't.
    - tored 5y ago
      PHP is usually easier to scale because it just a matter of how many webservers. e.g. apache or nginx, you choose to deploy. This also possible with other platforms, but can be a bit trickier to get right. For large PHP setups it is usually the number of database connections that is the limiting factor, however that is why historically the replicated MySQL databases was such a good fit for PHP, thus only creating a limit for writes on the master.
      - void_mint 5y ago
        > For large PHP setups it is usually the number of database connections that is the limiting factor, For pretty much every modern programming language, IO is the bottleneck over everything else. To save you some time, there are practically no metrics in which I think PHP beats another programming language other than maturity, and even then, not really.
  - swiley 5y ago
    Php needs an application server as well.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  Yes all of those would be way better options than Python and probably PHP. Well maybe not C++. You'd have to be pretty crazy to have web developers writing security sensitive code in C++. The "blame our co-founder for the choice" bit is exactly what that graph about the cost of defects vs how early they are fixed is talking about. If they had just picked Go or Java right at the start they wouldn't have had to expend all this engineering effort to get to a still-not-very-good solution.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    This thread arose from a person that said "Use PHP", as an argument to using Python. It's a silly argument.
    - sdze 5y ago
      It was just a silly remark about the snail-like performance of Python. Another silly thing: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/php-python3.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...
      - void_mint 5y ago
        I'm not really seeing what's silly about what you're linking. I'm seeing Java blowing the doors off of PHP, which matches my previous assertion.
        tored 5y ago
        Much better comparison for typical web load, what this discussion is about. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r20&hw=ph&test=query&l=zijyin-sf&p=0-0-0-e8-0&d=9&f=zhawhj-zijatb-zik0zj-zik0vz-zijbpb-zik0zj-zik0zj-zik0zj-zik0zj-zhxjwf-zik0zj-cn3 https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r20&hw=... Java wins as expected, but a typical setup with Spring versus the typical top PHP frameworks isn't blowing the doors off. Typical Python + Django is far behind, as someone pointed out. However what we can see in the diagrams is that ORM layers, regardless of language, are more expensive than what most people realize, even for a compiled language like Java. Why PHP wins is because it is fast enough, compared to other dynamic languages, but is a better fit for web development than Java or other compiled languages.
sdze 5y ago
It blows my mind how quickly PHP7.4 processes even shitty code.
waprin 5y ago
Yet YouTube, Instagram, Pinterest, Reddit, Robinhood, DoorDash, and Lyft backend were originally primarily written in Python. What’s funny is that nobody can really deny Python is slow yet somehow the biggest websites in the world were written in it. More proof that Worse Is Better?
- huffmsa 5y ago
  In the early stages: Speed of development is far more important than optimizing CPU usage. You can fake your way to fast responses with good caching, but there's not really many ways to fake having the best features.

So much this. Practically any other option is better than Python for web development if you're looking for performance.

by nsizx 5y ago

So much this. Practically any other option is better than Python for web development if you're looking for performance.

void_mint 5y ago

By this logic, why not Java, C++, Rust, Go, C#? They’re all web-capable and blow the doors off PHP, Python, etc.

sdze 5y ago
C#, Java, C++ need application servers, no? "Serverless" scales infinitely due to its simpler request/response lifecycle.
- void_mint 5y ago
  Serverless is too overloaded a term to have any meaning. I'm not really seeing how Python or PHP "scales infinitely" in any way that C#, Java, C++ couldn't.
  - tored 5y ago
    PHP is usually easier to scale because it just a matter of how many webservers. e.g. apache or nginx, you choose to deploy. This also possible with other platforms, but can be a bit trickier to get right. For large PHP setups it is usually the number of database connections that is the limiting factor, however that is why historically the replicated MySQL databases was such a good fit for PHP, thus only creating a limit for writes on the master.
    - void_mint 5y ago
      > For large PHP setups it is usually the number of database connections that is the limiting factor, For pretty much every modern programming language, IO is the bottleneck over everything else. To save you some time, there are practically no metrics in which I think PHP beats another programming language other than maturity, and even then, not really.
- swiley 5y ago
  Php needs an application server as well.
IshKebab 5y ago
Yes all of those would be way better options than Python and probably PHP. Well maybe not C++. You'd have to be pretty crazy to have web developers writing security sensitive code in C++. The "blame our co-founder for the choice" bit is exactly what that graph about the cost of defects vs how early they are fixed is talking about. If they had just picked Go or Java right at the start they wouldn't have had to expend all this engineering effort to get to a still-not-very-good solution.
- void_mint 5y ago
  This thread arose from a person that said "Use PHP", as an argument to using Python. It's a silly argument.
  - sdze 5y ago
    It was just a silly remark about the snail-like performance of Python. Another silly thing: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/php-python3.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...
    - void_mint 5y ago
      I'm not really seeing what's silly about what you're linking. I'm seeing Java blowing the doors off of PHP, which matches my previous assertion.
      - tored 5y ago
        Much better comparison for typical web load, what this discussion is about. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r20&hw=ph&test=query&l=zijyin-sf&p=0-0-0-e8-0&d=9&f=zhawhj-zijatb-zik0zj-zik0vz-zijbpb-zik0zj-zik0zj-zik0zj-zik0zj-zhxjwf-zik0zj-cn3 https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r20&hw=... Java wins as expected, but a typical setup with Spring versus the typical top PHP frameworks isn't blowing the doors off. Typical Python + Django is far behind, as someone pointed out. However what we can see in the diagrams is that ORM layers, regardless of language, are more expensive than what most people realize, even for a compiled language like Java. Why PHP wins is because it is fast enough, compared to other dynamic languages, but is a better fit for web development than Java or other compiled languages.

sdze 5y ago

It blows my mind how quickly PHP7.4 processes even shitty code.

waprin 5y ago

Yet YouTube, Instagram, Pinterest, Reddit, Robinhood, DoorDash, and Lyft backend were originally primarily written in Python. What’s funny is that nobody can really deny Python is slow yet somehow the biggest websites in the world were written in it. More proof that Worse Is Better?

huffmsa 5y ago
In the early stages: Speed of development is far more important than optimizing CPU usage. You can fake your way to fast responses with good caching, but there's not really many ways to fake having the best features.