5 ms·

Why would you automatically declare an organization like Cato, which comprises a lot of living and dying Nobel Laureates (10 in fact) and read by a large number

by gdfsnob 15y ago

Why would you automatically declare an organization like Cato, which comprises a lot of living and dying Nobel Laureates (10 in fact) and read by a large number of PhDs in economics from our top universities, not HN worthy and "political propaganda"? It's a little absurd to make such a claim without substantiating your argument.

kenjackson 15y ago
To be clear, my pronouncement of it not being HN worthy has nothing to with it being from Cato. But purely with the content of the article. Let me explain. It opens with an unattributed quote. One that is somewhat surprising given what I've seen from the teachers and educators I know who have seen Khan Academy. While some complain about things like the rigor of the exercises, I've never heard the complaint about needing to slow down the education of students. Ben's statement, which Cato parrots needs to be attributed to someone. Cato should known better than to base a story on it. Furthermore, the Cato story say, "This attitude is a natural outgrowth of our decision to operate education as a monopoly." Is it really? Where is the argument that substantiates such a claim? Then they say, "In a competitive marketplace, educators have incentives to serve each individual child to the best of their ability, because each child can easily be enrolled elsewhere if they fail to do so." Again, can they substantiate that claim? Supermarkets exist in a competitive marketplace, but things like geography make it far from a frictionless market. Again, I'd love to see the data that supports this claim. Lastly, "But why should a monopolist bother doing that? It’s easier just to feed children through the system on a uniform conveyor belt based on when they were born." Again, this is a claim with no finding in fact. And ignores a LOT of things like the fact that schools typically have single classes by grade, but subclasses broken out by skill. In my experience a child who is three grade levels ahead in math often should't be placed for social interaction with children three years older. So again, my point is that this Cato article is full of speculation and absolutely no data. Now your appeals to Cato's authority (Nobel prizes and such) is fine. They should put their skills that won them the Noble prize to work and actually write credible stories. This was a junk story simply meant to attack public schools. Plain and simple. It's political propaganda. No data. No logical arguments. Not worthy of HN. But that's just my opinion.
- gdfsnob 15y ago
  The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). CATO is overwhelmingly filled with PhDs in Economics, and with my economics background, I think it's safe to assume the above article is not controversial at all among economists across the aisle and none of them would term it "purely political propaganda". You state that CATO is "purely political propaganda" without substantiating that claim with any specifics whatsoever. Where is your data? American public schools, with few exceptions, don't compete with each other for resources and students. Therefore, it's a form of monopoly. For instance, an American student within a designated area can only attend a certain public school. Geographically-disadvantaged residents can still choose supermarkets outside their areas if they find more utility doing so (or a competitor can start up their own supermarket and take market share from the lazy incumbent), so supermarkets do exist in a competitive market. Public school students rarely have the option to choose new suppliers.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). Or when there's not consensus in the field. You state that CATO is "purely political propaganda" without substantiating that claim with any specifics whatsoever. Why do you keep saying that? The first sentence of my last post makes it clear that this isn't about Cato. I don't care who wrote it. I'm from Seattle and this school district, up until this year, has been open enrollment which means students could attend any school in the school district they wanted. And the school district would even pay for busing, but traveling halfway across the city, spending 2 hours a day on the bus typically meant people went to neighborhood schools. And that's my point with supermarkets too. Go to Watts and check out the selection and quality of food in supermarkets. Then go to La Jolla. Sure its a free market, but people don't really have much in the way of choice in poor areas. Unless they want to hop on a bus for an hour each way. A PhD in econ may mean you've figured out the optimal way to rapidly approach equilibria, but it won't tell you that you can't ride the L through the westside to get to the good supermarkets if you're known to be from the eastside.

by gdfsnob 15y ago

kenjackson 15y ago

To be clear, my pronouncement of it not being HN worthy has nothing to with it being from Cato. But purely with the content of the article. Let me explain. It opens with an unattributed quote. One that is somewhat surprising given what I've seen from the teachers and educators I know who have seen Khan Academy. While some complain about things like the rigor of the exercises, I've never heard the complaint about needing to slow down the education of students. Ben's statement, which Cato parrots needs to be attributed to someone. Cato should known better than to base a story on it. Furthermore, the Cato story say, "This attitude is a natural outgrowth of our decision to operate education as a monopoly." Is it really? Where is the argument that substantiates such a claim? Then they say, "In a competitive marketplace, educators have incentives to serve each individual child to the best of their ability, because each child can easily be enrolled elsewhere if they fail to do so." Again, can they substantiate that claim? Supermarkets exist in a competitive marketplace, but things like geography make it far from a frictionless market. Again, I'd love to see the data that supports this claim. Lastly, "But why should a monopolist bother doing that? It’s easier just to feed children through the system on a uniform conveyor belt based on when they were born." Again, this is a claim with no finding in fact. And ignores a LOT of things like the fact that schools typically have single classes by grade, but subclasses broken out by skill. In my experience a child who is three grade levels ahead in math often should't be placed for social interaction with children three years older. So again, my point is that this Cato article is full of speculation and absolutely no data. Now your appeals to Cato's authority (Nobel prizes and such) is fine. They should put their skills that won them the Noble prize to work and actually write credible stories. This was a junk story simply meant to attack public schools. Plain and simple. It's political propaganda. No data. No logical arguments. Not worthy of HN. But that's just my opinion.

gdfsnob 15y ago
The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). CATO is overwhelmingly filled with PhDs in Economics, and with my economics background, I think it's safe to assume the above article is not controversial at all among economists across the aisle and none of them would term it "purely political propaganda". You state that CATO is "purely political propaganda" without substantiating that claim with any specifics whatsoever. Where is your data? American public schools, with few exceptions, don't compete with each other for resources and students. Therefore, it's a form of monopoly. For instance, an American student within a designated area can only attend a certain public school. Geographically-disadvantaged residents can still choose supermarkets outside their areas if they find more utility doing so (or a competitor can start up their own supermarket and take market share from the lazy incumbent), so supermarkets do exist in a competitive market. Public school students rarely have the option to choose new suppliers.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). Or when there's not consensus in the field. You state that CATO is "purely political propaganda" without substantiating that claim with any specifics whatsoever. Why do you keep saying that? The first sentence of my last post makes it clear that this isn't about Cato. I don't care who wrote it. I'm from Seattle and this school district, up until this year, has been open enrollment which means students could attend any school in the school district they wanted. And the school district would even pay for busing, but traveling halfway across the city, spending 2 hours a day on the bus typically meant people went to neighborhood schools. And that's my point with supermarkets too. Go to Watts and check out the selection and quality of food in supermarkets. Then go to La Jolla. Sure its a free market, but people don't really have much in the way of choice in poor areas. Unless they want to hop on a bus for an hour each way. A PhD in econ may mean you've figured out the optimal way to rapidly approach equilibria, but it won't tell you that you can't ride the L through the westside to get to the good supermarkets if you're known to be from the eastside.