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Loosing sight of the forest for this one tree. 1) Google doesn't release devices without unlockable bootloaders. They have always been transparent in allowing

Loosing sight of the forest for this one tree. 1) Google doesn't release devices without unlockable bootloaders. They have always been transparent in allowing people to unlock their Nexus and Pixels. Nexus was for developers, Pixels are geared towards the end user. Nothing changed with regards to the bootloaders. 2) Google uses Coreboot for their ChromeOS devices. Again, you couldn't get more open than that if you wanted to buy a Chromebook and install something else on it. 3) To this day, app sideloading on Android remains an option. They've even made it easier for third party app stores to automatically update apps with 12. 4) AOSP. Sure, it doesn't have all the bells and whistles as the latest and greatest packaged up skin and OS release, but all of the features that matter within Android, especially if you're going to de-Google yourself, are still there. Any one of those points, but consider all four, and I have trouble understanding why people think REEEEEEEE Google. So you can't play with one ball in the garden (SafetyNet), you've still got the rest of the toys. That's a compromise I'm willing to accept in order to be able to do what I want to and how I want to do it. (Eg, Rooting or third party roms.) If you don't like what they do on their mobile OS, there's nothing that Google is doing to lock you into a Walled Garden to where the only option you have is to completely give up what you're used to... ...Unlike Apple. Not one iOS device has been granted an unlockable bootloader. Ever.

Zak 5y ago
Safetynet is becoming a problem, and the trend shows to signs of slowing down. I shouldn't have to choose between keeping full control over my device and being able to use it to access the modern world.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  For instance: The McDonald's app uses SafetyNet and won't run on an unlocked device.[1] Google doesn't place any restrictions on which types of apps can use SafetyNet. Banking apps tend to use it, but so do an increasing number of apps that clearly shouldn't need it. (For the record, I don't think SafetyNet should exist at all, but if Google is pretending it's for the user's security and not just to allow developers to make it harder to reverse engineer their fast food apps, they should at least set some boundaries.) It's frustrating that Google has fostered an ecosystem where not all "Android apps" work on vanilla Android. [1] https://twitter.com/topjohnwu/status/1277683005843111936 https://twitter.com/topjohnwu/status/1277683005843111936
  - Zak 5y ago
    I think a system to verify the integrity of the operating system and make the user aware of any changes is a Good Thing. Of course, the user should be in control of what signing keys are trusted and who else gets access to that information. Instead, what Google has done is allowed app developers to check that the user isn't doing anything surprising - especially unprofitable things like blocking ads or spoofing tracking data. Since Google profits from ads and tracking, I must assume a significant part of their motivation is to make unprofitable behavior inconvenient enough most people won't do it.
shbooms 5y ago
"1) Google doesn't release devices without unlockable bootloaders. They have always been transparent in allowing people to unlock their Nexus and Pixels. Nexus was for developers, Pixels are geared towards the end user. Nothing changed with regards to the bootloaders." This is not accurate. Pixels that come from Verizon have bootloaders that cannot be fully unlocked.
- dheera 5y ago
  That's because Verizon doesn't want you using a discounted phone with another carrier. If they let you unlock your phone, you could flash a stock radio and ditch Verizon for Google Fi or AT&T. Different issue at play. As long as you buy a Pixel directly from Google or one of a few authorized resellers, it is unlockable. (I recommend B&H, they help you legally evade the sales tax.) You can also use a Pixel you buy from Google with Verizon.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - techrat 5y ago
    Not to nitpick here, but there is no way any device you buy from Verizon is discounted, regardless of what they advertise. Everyone pays _full_ price for any device they get on contract or payment plan. Back when contract pricing was a more regular thing, I ended up doing the math on the plan rate after I requested for the device contract subsidy to be removed as I didn't want to upgrade the device. I had a Droid DNA at the time. The monthly rate dropped by $25 just to keep the same device. (Nevermind that I had to ASK for them to not continue to charge me the extra $25/mo after 2 years) $25 a month for 24 months is $600. The device on contract was $199. Full retail price if you didn't opt in for a 2 year contract when getting it? $699. So I ended up paying an extra $100 for the device than if I had just bought it outright. Even if the offerings/terms are different now... Verizon, regardless of how they market anything, absolutely makes you pay full price (and then some) for the device you get at 'discount.' It's funny now that we're seeing people being able to BYOD to Verizon these days and AT&T is the one engaging in aggressive whitelisting.
ryukafalz 5y ago
> all of the features that matter within Android, especially if you're going to de-Google yourself, are still there Except, uh, GPS. Even for third party navigation apps. Yes, I know about microG, but the fact that there had to be a third party reimplementation of what should be a standard system API is still a problem.
- gowld 5y ago
  Yes, it's true you can't get everything you want for free with zero effort. Life is not fair.
- commoner 5y ago
  > Except, uh, GPS. Even for third party navigation apps. AOSP does support GPS without needing any additional software, but does not have built-in support for Wi-Fi and cell tower triangulation. As you mentioned, UnifiedNlp (bundled with microG) optionally supports triangulation using a variety of location providers (including offline and online choices) for a faster location lock.
- fragileone 5y ago
  Agreed, it's shitty of Google to have moved so much functionality into it's proprietary Play Services. Push Notifications API being in it bothers me even more. Unfortunately until Linux mobile operating systems catch up in functionality though I'm going to stick with GrapheneOS.
josephcsible 5y ago
> Google doesn't release devices without unlockable bootloaders. They have always been transparent in allowing people to unlock their Nexus and Pixels. True but misleading. If you unlock your bootloader, you can no longer use a lot of apps, including Snapchat, Netflix, Pokemon Go, Super Mario Run, Android Pay, and most banking apps. And before you say this isn't Google's fault, know that they provide the SafetyNet API, which has no legitimate, ethical use cases, and is what allows all of the aforementioned apps to detect whether the device has been modified, even if the owner doesn't want that.
- tjbiddle 5y ago
  Obviously anecdotal, but literally none of those examples I care to use on my phone anyway. Overtime, my phone has just become a glorified camera with some messaging features.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- commoner 5y ago
  > most banking apps This really depends on the apps. I have used over 10 banking apps on an Android phone with an unlocked bootloader without ever encountering any issues. On a device rooted using Magisk, the MagiskHide masking feature successfully bypasses the apps' root checks in my experience.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    > I have used over 10 banking apps on an Android phone with an unlocked bootloader without ever encountering any issues. You have 10 accounts at different banks? I thought I was bad with 4
    - commoner 5y ago
      Well, this also includes credit cards. In some countries, unused and barely used credit lines improve one's credit score.
heavyset_go 5y ago
SafetyNet also exists to prevent people from running Android apps on platforms other than Android. You can't use SafetyNet-enabled apps on Anbox, which is what SailfishOS uses as their Android compatibility layer, nor on emulators. If you wanted to do a WSL but for Android, SafetyNet guarantees many apps won't work. It also puts alternative Linux-based mobile operating systems, like SailfishOS or postmarketOS, at a disadvantage because they won't be able to run certain Android apps for no real technical reason other than the protection of Google's money firehouse.

Zak 5y ago

Safetynet is becoming a problem, and the trend shows to signs of slowing down. I shouldn't have to choose between keeping full control over my device and being able to use it to access the modern world.

NotPractical 5y ago
For instance: The McDonald's app uses SafetyNet and won't run on an unlocked device.[1] Google doesn't place any restrictions on which types of apps can use SafetyNet. Banking apps tend to use it, but so do an increasing number of apps that clearly shouldn't need it. (For the record, I don't think SafetyNet should exist at all, but if Google is pretending it's for the user's security and not just to allow developers to make it harder to reverse engineer their fast food apps, they should at least set some boundaries.) It's frustrating that Google has fostered an ecosystem where not all "Android apps" work on vanilla Android. [1] https://twitter.com/topjohnwu/status/1277683005843111936 https://twitter.com/topjohnwu/status/1277683005843111936
- Zak 5y ago
  I think a system to verify the integrity of the operating system and make the user aware of any changes is a Good Thing. Of course, the user should be in control of what signing keys are trusted and who else gets access to that information. Instead, what Google has done is allowed app developers to check that the user isn't doing anything surprising - especially unprofitable things like blocking ads or spoofing tracking data. Since Google profits from ads and tracking, I must assume a significant part of their motivation is to make unprofitable behavior inconvenient enough most people won't do it.

shbooms 5y ago

"1) Google doesn't release devices without unlockable bootloaders. They have always been transparent in allowing people to unlock their Nexus and Pixels. Nexus was for developers, Pixels are geared towards the end user. Nothing changed with regards to the bootloaders." This is not accurate. Pixels that come from Verizon have bootloaders that cannot be fully unlocked.

dheera 5y ago
That's because Verizon doesn't want you using a discounted phone with another carrier. If they let you unlock your phone, you could flash a stock radio and ditch Verizon for Google Fi or AT&T. Different issue at play. As long as you buy a Pixel directly from Google or one of a few authorized resellers, it is unlockable. (I recommend B&H, they help you legally evade the sales tax.) You can also use a Pixel you buy from Google with Verizon.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- techrat 5y ago
  Not to nitpick here, but there is no way any device you buy from Verizon is discounted, regardless of what they advertise. Everyone pays _full_ price for any device they get on contract or payment plan. Back when contract pricing was a more regular thing, I ended up doing the math on the plan rate after I requested for the device contract subsidy to be removed as I didn't want to upgrade the device. I had a Droid DNA at the time. The monthly rate dropped by $25 just to keep the same device. (Nevermind that I had to ASK for them to not continue to charge me the extra $25/mo after 2 years) $25 a month for 24 months is $600. The device on contract was $199. Full retail price if you didn't opt in for a 2 year contract when getting it? $699. So I ended up paying an extra $100 for the device than if I had just bought it outright. Even if the offerings/terms are different now... Verizon, regardless of how they market anything, absolutely makes you pay full price (and then some) for the device you get at 'discount.' It's funny now that we're seeing people being able to BYOD to Verizon these days and AT&T is the one engaging in aggressive whitelisting.

ryukafalz 5y ago

> all of the features that matter within Android, especially if you're going to de-Google yourself, are still there Except, uh, GPS. Even for third party navigation apps. Yes, I know about microG, but the fact that there had to be a third party reimplementation of what should be a standard system API is still a problem.

gowld 5y ago
Yes, it's true you can't get everything you want for free with zero effort. Life is not fair.
commoner 5y ago
> Except, uh, GPS. Even for third party navigation apps. AOSP does support GPS without needing any additional software, but does not have built-in support for Wi-Fi and cell tower triangulation. As you mentioned, UnifiedNlp (bundled with microG) optionally supports triangulation using a variety of location providers (including offline and online choices) for a faster location lock.
fragileone 5y ago
Agreed, it's shitty of Google to have moved so much functionality into it's proprietary Play Services. Push Notifications API being in it bothers me even more. Unfortunately until Linux mobile operating systems catch up in functionality though I'm going to stick with GrapheneOS.

josephcsible 5y ago

> Google doesn't release devices without unlockable bootloaders. They have always been transparent in allowing people to unlock their Nexus and Pixels. True but misleading. If you unlock your bootloader, you can no longer use a lot of apps, including Snapchat, Netflix, Pokemon Go, Super Mario Run, Android Pay, and most banking apps. And before you say this isn't Google's fault, know that they provide the SafetyNet API, which has no legitimate, ethical use cases, and is what allows all of the aforementioned apps to detect whether the device has been modified, even if the owner doesn't want that.

tjbiddle 5y ago
Obviously anecdotal, but literally none of those examples I care to use on my phone anyway. Overtime, my phone has just become a glorified camera with some messaging features.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
commoner 5y ago
> most banking apps This really depends on the apps. I have used over 10 banking apps on an Android phone with an unlocked bootloader without ever encountering any issues. On a device rooted using Magisk, the MagiskHide masking feature successfully bypasses the apps' root checks in my experience.
- tekknik 5y ago
  > I have used over 10 banking apps on an Android phone with an unlocked bootloader without ever encountering any issues. You have 10 accounts at different banks? I thought I was bad with 4
  - commoner 5y ago
    Well, this also includes credit cards. In some countries, unused and barely used credit lines improve one's credit score.

heavyset_go 5y ago

SafetyNet also exists to prevent people from running Android apps on platforms other than Android. You can't use SafetyNet-enabled apps on Anbox, which is what SailfishOS uses as their Android compatibility layer, nor on emulators. If you wanted to do a WSL but for Android, SafetyNet guarantees many apps won't work. It also puts alternative Linux-based mobile operating systems, like SailfishOS or postmarketOS, at a disadvantage because they won't be able to run certain Android apps for no real technical reason other than the protection of Google's money firehouse.