6 ms·
Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings
- sam0x17 5y agoIt's pretty crazy how expensive a simple sprint planning meeting really is if you have 5+ engineers.
- droctothorpe 5y agoNot to mention, depending on the size of the company / org, all hands meetings can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars.
- voiper1 5y ago... especially if you fly them cross-country and put them up in hotels. (I've read some stories.)
- kfarr 5y agoI agree, but it's also expensive if you have those same 5+ engineers working on the wrong thing all week. Finding the right balance is hard.
- IMTDb 5y agoWhat this clock does not compute, is how much money you leave on the table by reducing your meeting count/time and have your engineers/workers dive straight into the problem without talking enough to each other or with the stakeholders beforehand. Sometimes it leads the death of many man-month projects, or worse.
- ipaddr 5y agoIf the requirements are weak. These meetings try to shore up weak requirements. If the requirements are strong these meetings are not important and wasteful.
- loremipsium 5y agoah yes. Because there is a direct and clear road ahead from requirement to implementation. Requirements don't change and if they do it doesn't have any impact on existing parts of the software. /s
- MisterBastahrd 5y agoMy favorite is when stakeholders don't talk to devs to determine whether something is actually possible given the data we collect, but instead go off the recommendation of a technical manager who has never actually worked on the system or its data. An assertive dev will look at the requirements, try to figure out how that fits, and then reply back to stakeholders if it's unfeasible. Everyone else will sit there for a week bashing their brains out against a keyboard and have continually increased anxiety because they've been assigned an impossible task. The time for a dev to be involved in the process is during requirements gathering as a partner to the process, not after a contract for work has been signed by the client.
- ilaksh 5y agoThat's not the point of this. You would use this for something like poor management (quite common) that had "stand-up"s on Zoom every day or couple of days that were dragging out and had too many participants listening to irrelevant updates.
- droctothorpe 5y agoExactly!
- bigbillheck 5y agoTechnical solutions to social problems don't usually work, why would this be different?
- munchbunny 5y agoI don't see this as a technical solution to a social problem. I see this as a technical tool to help with a social solution to a social problem. Specifically, finding a way to communicate the opportunity cost of a meeting, which is a social solution to the social problem, because I don't need this app to do it, but it could help.
- gurchik 5y ago> finding a way to communicate the opportunity cost of a meeting ... I don't need this app to do it, but it could help. The terminal UI is one thing. From my personal experience, displaying the running cost of meetings in my Zoom camera would always be a bad idea. It's an optional feature of this program so it doesn't detract away from the entire idea, just saying that from my experience, managers already know that meetings cost money so displaying the cost of the meeting is pointless, you need to instead argue why your manager is wrong that the cost of the meeting is worth it.
- munchbunny 5y agoOh, I agree, I think it comes off as passive aggressive and wouldn't use it. But I also still don't see it as a technical solution to a social problem, which is what we see with the way certain tech giants are trying to handle content moderation. I just ask up front whether we can accomplish the same thing without a meeting, and if we can, I just say no to the meeting. If I'm actually necessary, then it'll get done one way or another without the meeting. If I'm not, then it's most likely not my battle to fight. (Substitute "We" for "I" if I'm the manager or a mentor or tech lead or something.)
- ilaksh 5y agoThere are unfortunately a lot of people who are put in a bad situation by bosses despite having multiple people explaining the time is a waste. Including them. So a little bit of passive aggression when someone is in that situation might help them fight out of it and give them a little breathing room. And the reality is that many jobs like that, if the manager reacts badly, it might actually be a relief for the person to finally move on to another job.
- cheschire 5y agoSimply announcing the cost of meetings afterwards would have a similar long term chilling effect without being the stereotypical passive aggressive engineer.
- dugmartin 5y agoI worked for someone in the 90s that came over from Disney and he mentioned they had a similar system but with the dollar amount in huge type on the screen. I can't imagine what some of those Disney executive meetings cost.
- badbetty 5y agoWow, I do waste a lot of company money by slacking off :)
- 300bps 5y agoGood luck. There are some people in organizations whose entire job is to schedule and attend meetings. No matter how you say it to those kinds of people, expressing that meetings are keeping you from getting engineer-related work done will be viewed extremely negatively. I’ve been in IT decades and still don’t know what the best answer is.
- ilaksh 5y agoFire those people.
- Hypergraphe 5y agoThose are generally at the top of the structure.
- ilaksh 5y agoTrue. Not saying it's usually practical. But still would be best to fire them.
- tomhallett 5y agoOur CEO requires every meeting to have an agenda sent out the day before which goes over the background for the meeting, any metrics/dashboards everyone should be familiar with, and what should be discussed in the meeting. If the person who schedules the meeting does this, it opens up a conversation where you can say "I read what you sent out - everything looks good and I don't think I'm needed for this meeting".
- phgn 5y agoLooks interesting! You may want to consider renaming the tool, it's overlapping with getclockwise.com, which is quite popular.
- kyawzazaw 5y agoHow popular is it? Considering working there.
- phgn 5y agoI only know anecdotally that we were rolling it out to engineering at Uber, and I see it at my current company as well. It has good selling points for management to "improve productivity", and usage spreads easily once someone in a team starts using it.
- jonnycomputer 5y agoWait till they use it to show the cost of your time spent on HN, or gabbing while refilling your coffee cup.
- quickthrower2 5y agoOr one where they show the cost of sleeping, cuddling on the couch, holding your newborn, getting vaccinated, attending church etc.
- travoc 5y agoThis should really just be an outlook plugin that estimates the cost of a meeting at the time of scheduling.
- Hypergraphe 5y ago"averageSalary defaults to $150,000 and can be modified by using the set subcommand." While in my country, engineers are paid around 50k$...
- phgn 5y agoThis is HN, what do expect? :)
- slg 5y agoFun app for personal use, but it seems rather passive aggressive to display this in Zoom if you aren't the one who called the meeting. Voice a concern if you think a meeting isn't necessary. Don't quietly try to undermine the meeting as it is happening. And odds are if this is something everyone on the team wants to include in a meeting, the team probably already puts a priority on not wasting time in meetings.
- 123pie123 5y ago>Voice a concern if you think a meeting isn't necessary Correct, I simple ask if I can be excused from the meeting. Which I find myself doing occasionally, since a lot of people do not bother looking at anyones busy/ free calender and I end up being quadriple booked
- cpeterso 5y agoI would also recommend voicing your concerns privately with the meeting host (before the meeting). Publicly asserting some meeting isn't necessary could feel like an attack on the meeting host. Give the host an opportunity to be the "hero" who improves or cancels the meeting. You can get the outcome you wanted without looking like a jerk.
- mnd999 5y agoYeah, it’s not a constructive approach. I would not want to work with anyone who pulls stunts like this, no matter how “clever” they are.
- PragmaticPulp 5y agoAgreed. Passive aggressive approaches like this app should be left to fantasy. If you have a problem, learn to handle it like a professional adult. Talk it out. Propose alternatives. If you find yourself in a 127-person Zoom call that isn’t relevant to you, just leave and send a note to the meeting organizer that you’re not available for such meetings and ask them to please let you know if anything comes up that is specific to you. Making a scene by holding up an app and being passive aggressive about the point you’re trying to make is not a productive way to communicate. It likely won’t have the intended effect, either.
- wpasc 5y agoI would love to see a feedback feature (not necessarily for this app but just in general) where meeting participants can answer: 1. Did I learn anything new at this meeting? 2. Did I talk at all during this meeting? 3. Would I have gotten the same value from some asynchronous shared doc, etc etc. So many meetings have so many people that just lose time by going to the meeting and provide no updates or don't receive any new info just because the meetings are big and unwieldy
- droctothorpe 5y agoThis is an awesome feature request. Thank you!
- 123pie123 5y agoa few of our team meetings people do a small poll with asking questions like this
- ryandrake 5y agoThis always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity. Be prepared to articulate exactly why you feel some other use of your time is more appropriate, in case someone asks, but nobody is holding a gun to your head telling you to join the meeting. I'm double-booked for meetings all day, so I'm constantly making judgment calls about which one (or neither) is more important. It's not a big deal, and you don't need an app for it.
- thanksforfish 5y agoAgreement from me, although I'd avoid double booking. Double booking means that other people are expecting you to attend, they may wait to see if more people join, or need to reschedule if the right audience isn't able to make it. I think it's best to pro-actively reject meetings versus only showing up for one.
- mwigdahl 5y agoDepends. If your schedule has a lot of flux (meetings being cancelled ad-hoc, etc.) then it can be useful to accept everything but notify the host that you probably won't be there unless something changes. That way if something does change you at least still have it on your calendar (I use Outlook, maybe other calendar/meeting apps handle this better).
- nraf 5y agoGoogle Calendar has a Maybe option that solves it simply enough.
- disgruntledphd2 5y agoOutlook has Tentative, for the same reason.
- phgn 5y ago
- beardbandit 5y agoThis is incredibly passive aggressive lol.
- droctothorpe 5y agoI call it RDD: Rage Driven Development.
- f6v 5y agoProgrammers often think the technical aspect of the work is the most important. I’ve met many developers wannabe entrepreneurs who were convinced they had to spend as much time perfecting their app as possible instead of talking to prospective customers. We all know that doesn’t end well. What I realized over my relatively long IT career is that maybe developers just don’t get why meetings are necessary. Not saying all meetings are equally useful, many of them are in fact a waste of time. But many engineers are narrow-minded and outright reject all the benefits of getting into the same room and discussing a problem.
- ryanSrich 5y agoI think we should make a distinction here. Client, prospect and customer meetings are absolutely necessary and you should prioritize those no matter what. Internal time wasting meetings are the pinnacle of the art of not working and should be avoided at all costs.
- f6v 5y ago> Internal time wasting meetings are the pinnacle of the art of not working and should be avoided at all costs. I’m yet to experience a 100% black-and-white phenomenon in the Universe. We’re all not equal in how we see the work and how we process the information. That’s why we need to compromise and try to underhand why meetings are scheduled. Ok, suppose programmers are 100% exempt from the internal meetings. Engineering managers and product owners then go ahead and just make every single decision there is. How’s that? The meetings are often used for people to sync on the progress and issues. Moreover, technical people can give their input and help non-technical ones to better understand the limitations, issues, etc.
- atonse 5y agoThe only black and white regarding this I’ve seen are status meetings where most questions could’ve been answered in a discussion or email thread. And the counter point, is where we wasted days in an email discussion thread when a 30 min meeting would’ve been as effective.
- lupire 5y agoRelated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20252759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20252759
- Galanwe 5y agoI'm waiting for the meeting that helps engineer fight back against pointless apps
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- meibo 5y agoI would get crucified at my org if I put that on my feed/screen. Wouldn't want to work at a place with a culture like that.
- onion2k 5y agoBased on the example gif in the repo I would definitely agree - any meeting with 127 participants is pointless. Or it's not a meeting. Maybe it's a lecture or an announcement instead.
- groby_b 5y agoIf you think a meeting is pointless, say so. And don't attend. Yes, sometimes that's hard due to being in a toxic environment, but in that case, a passive-aggressive measure like a meeting cost calculator will go over like a lead balloon too. (Source: I tried ;) Same goes for "multitasking". If a meeting doesn't have value, don't attend, or leave as soon as that's clear. If most meetings have no value to you, have a hard look as to why. Sometimes, it's because there's a meeting culture. But sometimes, it's because you're missing the point. (for meeting organizers: Spell out the damn point in the agenda, will you? You have an agenda, right?)
- cpeterso 5y agoTo actually help make meetings more productive, I highly recommend the book "The Surprising Science of Meetings: How You Can Lead Your Team to Peak Performance" [1] ("One of the top business books everybody will be reading in 2019" — Business Insider). For a quick summary, watch the author's webinar "The Surprising Science of Meetings: Evidence-Based Insights Leaders Need to Gain a Competitive Advantage" [2]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0190689218 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0190689218 [2] https://youtu.be/8rDuumUtfAM https://youtu.be/8rDuumUtfAM
- imvetri 5y agowhy do you need an app to fight back ?. Stay rebellious.
- tantalor 5y agoThese employees are salaried. They are not paid in 500ms increments.
- fire 5y agoThere is also a "smart assistant" rescheduling service by the same name[1] that I used to great effect at my last employer 1: https://www.getclockwise.com/ https://www.getclockwise.com/
- galuggus 5y agoYou could always use bufferi.ng
- _wldu 5y agoWe need to have a meeting about meetings that discuss the policy on policies to set some ground rules and then circle back...
- davidw 5y agoSpeaking of, could we just not with calling meetings "ceremonies"? It is so pretentious and pompous sounding.
- mixmastamyk 5y agoBy design, it is a term of derision.
- davidw 5y agoEh? 'Ceremony' is a word we normally use for important events. Weddings, funerals... that kind of thing.
- mixmastamyk 5y agoNot in a sarcastic business-meeting context.
- davidw 5y agoPeople do not use it sarcastically in my experience. Plenty of non sarcastic references like this https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum/ceremonies https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum/ceremonies
- mixmastamyk 5y agoI guess it’s another word with multiple meanings, depending on whether you buy into suit-speak or not.
- ramoz 5y agoAs lead I tell devs: you dont need to attend any meeting that is not useful & cuts into your dev. Some empowerment required, cross-functional explanations on my part.
- counternotions 5y agoSurely this is a guaranteed path to get nailed as a toxic employee. Conducive if the goal is to get fired and collect unemployment.
- JTbane 5y agoMy biggest gripe is "all-hands" meetings that often run over an hour. I'm pretty sure it's just upper management stroking their egos. I have no power in the decisions that have been already made, and are then relayed in these meetings. This crap could be summarized in a couple of paragraphs in an email, and I can read faster than they can talk.
- quickthrower2 5y agoI like all hands as they give you a great idea of what is going on at the company, how you fit in and you get to ask questions
- sandreas 5y agoOver the years I collected some general advice how to be productive in meetings, which worked out quite well for me. But it requires discipline, to follow the rules: https://pilabor.com/blog/2021/04/tips-and-tricks-for-meetings/ https://pilabor.com/blog/2021/04/tips-and-tricks-for-meeting...
- seriousquestion 5y agoShould Zoom build this in as a feature? Why or why not?
- quickthrower2 5y agoNot in their interests to do so.
- muhammadusman 5y agothere is already another calendar management app called Clockwise, maybe try a different name to avoid confusion?
- foxbee 5y agoI think this problem is institutional rather than technical. But I could be wrong.
- darepublic 5y agoWouldn't want a cost calculator when I go the washroom the clock
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y agoMeetings are awesome because I get to do nothing, get paid for it, and everybody agrees I did something that took up time and was work related. What is there not to love?
- beardbandit 5y agoSeriously. Its not like alternatively I can code for 8 straight hours. I treat meetings like breaks for the most part.
- sdevonoes 5y agoThere was a time when I used to say "What? Another pointless meeting? Oh c'mon that just distracts me from working on features/writing code!". I don't say that anymore. I'm fine with useless meetings because: - it's work time. I don't really mind how I spend my working hours. It's 8h and no more (well, with WFH, it's more like 5h or so, but the point stands) - if the meeting is pointless, I just disconnect. So, the meeting is actually like a break for me. I grab a coffee and let it go - if I have too many pointless meetings that do not let me do "my job" (but remember, pointless meetings are your job as well!), well let it be. In the standup of the next day I will clearly state: "I spent 2h attending meeting X". If someone asks "why aren't your Jira issues done on time?", I just answer "Oh, I was working on something else (meeting X)". So, pointless meetings are actually not bad. Just keep your soul free of noise, work (code) when you have time for it.
- stronglikedan 5y ago> I don't really mind how I spend my working hours. Must be nice to not have hard deadlines while on salary.
- sdevonoes 5y agoI don't get it. If I don't deliver on time whatever I must deliver because of external reasons (e.g., you're slacking, you don't really communicate well with others, you don't have a solid understanding of some tech concepts, etc.) then sure, it's "my fault" (although, it's more like the "team's fault" because is the whole team the one that delivers stuff, but this is another topic). And I understand if I don't get salary raises/promotions. But if the reason I don't get a salary raise is because I don't deliver on time because I am working on other company-related stuff (i.e., attending meetings) then either: a) I didn't communicate this clearly to my manager ("hey, I spent a significantly portion of my time on meetings") or b) the company thinks meetings "is not work". So, if it's "a)", it's my fault; but if it's "b)" then I probably already quit (who wants to work in such a company?)
- ipnon 5y agoThis is an emergent property of social organizations over a certain size, say the Dunbar number, I claim. The organization has its own eye, and cannot look in all directions at once. Some of its members will be able to hide.
- prepend 5y agoThese kinds of snarky calculators actually make meetings worse, I think. There’s lots of people who I think enjoy meetings because it demonstrates power. Calculating how much their meeting costs will make this worse because it’s easier to see how powerful a meeting is. Separately, I don’t think that time consumed as a cost is unknown to participants so quantifying it doesn’t help much. Kind of like how calories on the Burger King menu doesn’t result in fewer double whoppers with cheese ordered. To help prevent pointless meetings, what I do is reject meetings that don’t have agendas or clear objectives. I explicitly decline and say “I don’t know what this is for” and sometimes I find out what the reason is. Sometimes it changes my mind, but usually blank invites mean not so great meetings. And then, I try to never schedule meetings unless there’s no other solution. And I send simple agendas, and if necessary, homework with a time estimate needed to process (eg, read this background before we meet). Sometimes if I’m feeling froggy, I’ll actually mention something about how it’s a 30 minute meeting with the context and background done beforehand or a 60 minute meeting if we want to walk through everything together. I’m not sure how objectively valuable this is to the org, but it makes me feel better. And I’ve had multiple people comment that they appreciate it and use my reputation and approach in deciding whether to attend in my meetings.
- neltnerb 5y agoThe only thing that really gets to me is when the person leading the meeting shows up 20 minutes late as a show of their power. Ten people losing twenty minutes sitting there waiting.
- 29athrowaway 5y agoThis is fantastic but unfortunately it reveals compensation information for attendees.