5 ms·

Harsher punishments. Nothing is stopping kids from going around and stabbing randoms but the fear of getting caught (and for some the distaste of hurting others

Harsher punishments. Nothing is stopping kids from going around and stabbing randoms but the fear of getting caught (and for some the distaste of hurting others). Kids believe they can swat someone and get away with it. Don't only go after the cases that result in deaths, crackdown on all such cases.

ceejayoz 5y ago
That hasn't panned out with the death penalty (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/there...). People don't go "gee, I wonder what the typical criminal penalty for this action is..." They just do it, especially kids with immature brains and only partially developed impulse control.
- macintux 5y ago
  Many of those who commit crimes that could result in the death penalty are either in a high risk scenario (e.g., drug dealers) who face worse fates on a day-to-day basis. It’s understandable why the death penalty isn’t such a harsh deterrent for everyone.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bawolff 5y ago
  Who said anything about death peanalty. There's a lot of evidence that once a punishment is big enough, it makes no difference on deterence, but that's very different from saying punishment vs no punishment is the same.
  - sjg007 5y ago
    Interesting.. can you provide a study I can read?
    - bawolff 5y ago
      Its not my field so i'm not sure im aware of what the best studies are, but some links: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ffct-prsn/index-en.aspx https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ffct-prsn/i... https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterr...
      - sjg007 5y ago
        Ah sorry thought you were an expert.
- yadaeno 5y ago
  This may be true for the death penalty. But it certainly doesn't generalize to all punishment. Are you saying that punishing bad behavior consistently won't deter criminals? That flies in the face of common sense that I don't believe claims of "no evidence". Most children do have a concept of consequence. They certainly understand that calling police will be traced back to them. I was a kid once, they're not as stupid as you think.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > Are you saying that punishing bad behavior consistently won't deter criminals? I'm saying teenagers are frequently fucking idiots, and that sending them into the American prison system is a "solution" that causes even more damage.
    - blooalien 5y ago
      When I was a kid, sending kids to "jail" for the night was a great way to scare the hell outta them in the name of making sure they understood the gravity of the mistake they'd made crossing a certain line. Where I grew up, the police were always in cahoots with the parents to ensure that the kid got a right good unforgettable lesson outta the experience. Sounds like the sorta thing these stupid kids need to me.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        I agree with the caveat over the last ~30yr we've normalized calling law enforcement over the most petty things. When teachers threaten to call the police when kids get in a fist fight it substantially waters down the gravity of calling the police for something that actually matters.
        Lio 5y ago
        That’s probably a consequence of not allowing teachers to deal with that themselves. Which is a consequence of some teachers abusing that unofficial privilege. The police have become the only authority with the ability to use force in society. That too is being questioned now because of abuse of authority. Which leads to all sorts of questions about who should be the allowed to take action against bad behaviour? Who watches the watchmen?
- GuardianCaveman 5y ago
  Look on a small scale I could afford speeding tickets easily but I can’t afford to have my license suspended after x number of them so I don’t speed very much.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17366333/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17366333/ > Drivers who receive speeding citations are at increased risk of receiving subsequent speeding citations, suggesting that speeding citations have limited effects on deterrence in the context of the current traffic enforcement system.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
sp332 5y ago
You also have to communicate the penalties to people. "Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret!"
HeyZuess 5y ago
What would be a reasonable ("Harsher") punishment in this case?
scotty79 5y ago
Dumb kids are everywhere. Punishment is not harsher. And yet swatting seems to be nearly exclusively American problem.
t0mbstone 5y ago
A harsher punishment isn't going to solve the problem. These kids aren't doing this shit because they expect to get caught. The real problem is the militarization of the police force, and the idea that all it takes is a random phone call (without any proof or verification) to have someone's house stormed by a squad of men with guns and military gear.
- tqi 5y ago
  Why is there always a "real problem" as opposed "also a problem"?
  - t0mbstone 5y ago
    Because you will never be able to stop stupid kids from being stupid kids. Instead of trying to solve that unsolvable "problem", we should be focusing on the "real problems" that actually ARE solvable, like excessive and unwarranted (literally) police force.
mchusma 5y ago
The US already has about 10x the number of people in jail as European countries. We need less people in jail, not more. I don't think changing the punishment from 5 years in jail to 10 years in jail would deter anyone differently. And I would like to believe that someone doing this super stupid thing is redeemable and can be a productive member of society, versus a permanent ward of the state.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
I agree. This guy facing 5 yrs while Aaron Swartz was facing 35 yrs for scraping a website...
rodgerd 5y ago
I doubt that would make any difference. The problem is that swatting is trivial and risk-free. Phone networks make faking calls trivial, because spam callers want it to be. swatters piggyback on that to be able to swat you from all over the world. Police departments in some countries will respond hard to claims of violence in progress, making it easy to get the response you desire. There's no point having the death penalty for swatting if you can keep doing it from anywhere in the world with virtually no chance of being caught.
himinlomax 5y ago
The US has much harsher punishment than other countries. The main result is that it has 10 times more prisoner, literally, than all other countries. Has it resulted in less crimes than in other countries?

ceejayoz 5y ago

That hasn't panned out with the death penalty (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/there...). People don't go "gee, I wonder what the typical criminal penalty for this action is..." They just do it, especially kids with immature brains and only partially developed impulse control.

macintux 5y ago
Many of those who commit crimes that could result in the death penalty are either in a high risk scenario (e.g., drug dealers) who face worse fates on a day-to-day basis. It’s understandable why the death penalty isn’t such a harsh deterrent for everyone.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bawolff 5y ago
Who said anything about death peanalty. There's a lot of evidence that once a punishment is big enough, it makes no difference on deterence, but that's very different from saying punishment vs no punishment is the same.
- sjg007 5y ago
  Interesting.. can you provide a study I can read?
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Its not my field so i'm not sure im aware of what the best studies are, but some links: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ffct-prsn/index-en.aspx https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ffct-prsn/i... https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterr...
    - sjg007 5y ago
      Ah sorry thought you were an expert.
yadaeno 5y ago
This may be true for the death penalty. But it certainly doesn't generalize to all punishment. Are you saying that punishing bad behavior consistently won't deter criminals? That flies in the face of common sense that I don't believe claims of "no evidence". Most children do have a concept of consequence. They certainly understand that calling police will be traced back to them. I was a kid once, they're not as stupid as you think.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Are you saying that punishing bad behavior consistently won't deter criminals? I'm saying teenagers are frequently fucking idiots, and that sending them into the American prison system is a "solution" that causes even more damage.
  - blooalien 5y ago
    When I was a kid, sending kids to "jail" for the night was a great way to scare the hell outta them in the name of making sure they understood the gravity of the mistake they'd made crossing a certain line. Where I grew up, the police were always in cahoots with the parents to ensure that the kid got a right good unforgettable lesson outta the experience. Sounds like the sorta thing these stupid kids need to me.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      I agree with the caveat over the last ~30yr we've normalized calling law enforcement over the most petty things. When teachers threaten to call the police when kids get in a fist fight it substantially waters down the gravity of calling the police for something that actually matters.
      - Lio 5y ago
        That’s probably a consequence of not allowing teachers to deal with that themselves. Which is a consequence of some teachers abusing that unofficial privilege. The police have become the only authority with the ability to use force in society. That too is being questioned now because of abuse of authority. Which leads to all sorts of questions about who should be the allowed to take action against bad behaviour? Who watches the watchmen?
GuardianCaveman 5y ago
Look on a small scale I could afford speeding tickets easily but I can’t afford to have my license suspended after x number of them so I don’t speed very much.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17366333/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17366333/ > Drivers who receive speeding citations are at increased risk of receiving subsequent speeding citations, suggesting that speeding citations have limited effects on deterrence in the context of the current traffic enforcement system.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

sp332 5y ago

You also have to communicate the penalties to people. "Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret!"

HeyZuess 5y ago

What would be a reasonable ("Harsher") punishment in this case?

scotty79 5y ago

Dumb kids are everywhere. Punishment is not harsher. And yet swatting seems to be nearly exclusively American problem.

t0mbstone 5y ago

A harsher punishment isn't going to solve the problem. These kids aren't doing this shit because they expect to get caught. The real problem is the militarization of the police force, and the idea that all it takes is a random phone call (without any proof or verification) to have someone's house stormed by a squad of men with guns and military gear.

tqi 5y ago
Why is there always a "real problem" as opposed "also a problem"?
- t0mbstone 5y ago
  Because you will never be able to stop stupid kids from being stupid kids. Instead of trying to solve that unsolvable "problem", we should be focusing on the "real problems" that actually ARE solvable, like excessive and unwarranted (literally) police force.

mchusma 5y ago

The US already has about 10x the number of people in jail as European countries. We need less people in jail, not more. I don't think changing the punishment from 5 years in jail to 10 years in jail would deter anyone differently. And I would like to believe that someone doing this super stupid thing is redeemable and can be a productive member of society, versus a permanent ward of the state.

dzhiurgis 5y ago

I agree. This guy facing 5 yrs while Aaron Swartz was facing 35 yrs for scraping a website...

rodgerd 5y ago

I doubt that would make any difference. The problem is that swatting is trivial and risk-free. Phone networks make faking calls trivial, because spam callers want it to be. swatters piggyback on that to be able to swat you from all over the world. Police departments in some countries will respond hard to claims of violence in progress, making it easy to get the response you desire. There's no point having the death penalty for swatting if you can keep doing it from anywhere in the world with virtually no chance of being caught.

himinlomax 5y ago

The US has much harsher punishment than other countries. The main result is that it has 10 times more prisoner, literally, than all other countries. Has it resulted in less crimes than in other countries?