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Yes, most martial arts are more of cultural dance and ceremony than an actual effective fighting techniques. MMA/UFC has done more to advance the state of the

Yes, most martial arts are more of cultural dance and ceremony than an actual effective fighting techniques. MMA/UFC has done more to advance the state of the art than a 1000 years of dojos ever did. From a cultural standpoint it's a shame that this martial art is lost, but I would be surprised if it had anything novel that would translate to real combat.

austinjp 5y ago
Well, MMA is a one-on-one sport, with all that entails. No multiple opponents, no small joint manipulation, no gouging, no biting, no spitting, no striking the neck or back of the head, no kicking the head of a downed opponent.... etc etc. All of which could happen in actual combat and non-sport fighting.
- simonh 5y ago
  There was a famous Greek fighter who competed in the original Olympics who's preferred tactic was to break all the fingers of his opponent first, before finishing them off. It was pretty normal for fighters to lose teeth or suffer broken bones.
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    This guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sostratus_of_Sicyon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sostratus_of_Sicyon
    - simonh 5y ago
      Go Sostratus!
- danenania 5y ago
  Apart from multiple opponents, those all seem like fairly minor variations on MMA technique in the sense that defending against the legal MMA attacks naturally defends against the illegal ones as well, and similarly the same skills that allow a fighter to land legal attacks would allow them to land illegal ones in a non-sport situation. It seems unlikely an overall inferior MMA fighter could win just by focusing on specific illegal moves. For multiple opponents, I could certainly see that changing the optimal strategy, but it seems like the odds of winning would still mainly be a function of how strong a fighter is one-on-one, since the only hope is to quickly neutralize the additional opponent(s).
  - roel_v 5y ago
    "Monkey steals the peach" is all you need to know to win any fight you're in! Buy my mail order course now, only $19.95!
  - aikinai 5y ago
    Attacking eyes, fingers, groin, etc. would change everything. Everyone thinks grappling is more “realistic” than pre-MMA striking styles, but they forget that most of those grappling positions leave tons of delicate targets wide open for poking, ripping, gouging. The effective techniques in MMA are just as defined by the ground rules as any other martial art. Real “anything goes” fighting would be as different from MMA as MMA is from kickboxing.
    - danenania 5y ago
      It changes things, sure, but I think the person best able to adapt and take advantage of those differences would be the better overall fighter, not the person who has practiced more eye gouges or groin kicks. Against a more skilled opponent your attempts to groin kick or break a finger or whatever will most likely lead you to be knocked out or otherwise submitted just like your attempts to choke or side kick would under MMA rules. Being in a position to make those attacks generally implies that your opponent is either less skilled or is deliberately leaving those openings because they know the rules, and could avoid doing so if the rules were different or there weren’t any rules... because ultimately they’re the one in control if they’re a lot better than you at the core skills of fighting. That said, given two otherwise equally skilled fighters, of course the one with more experience under the specific conditions would have an advantage.
    - matwood 5y ago
      It actually wouldn't change much at all. Every MMA fighter already instinctively protects their head which includes eyes. Finger locks are laughable in an actual a fight. I know a person who (I think stupidly), refused to tap to an ankle lock in a BJJ match, broke his ankle, but did win the fight. No finger lock was stopping him. I guess someone could try to kick someone's groin and maybe get one through. An MMA fighter is already trained to check kicks down so again unlikely. And if you think someone is going to drop their hands to get to someone's groin...ok. The reality is BJJ and MMA is basically how most street fight/self-defense situations go down. Untrained people wildly throw some punches and end up on the ground. The only caveat, which every grapplers knows, is pulling guard is a competition only thing. In a 'real' fight you never want to be on the bottom.
- roel_v 5y ago
  Ah yes, the true and tried "my martial art is too deadly to be tested" argument.
  - austinjp 5y ago
    Um... that wasn't my point at all...?
- matwood 5y ago
  I'm not sure where you train MMA or BJJ, but where I train the self-defense aspect of various grappling techniques are always discussed. There's a reason that it's drilled from day 1 to keep hands inside protecting the head (whether on your feet, ground, or anywhere in between). Next is controlling the shoulders b/c then it's hard for someone to punch. Every grappler knows pulling guard in a real fight is dumb, with the best position being knee on belly b/c it gives control and the ability to assess the situation for more attackers. The reason for the lack of small joint manipulation is that it doesn't really work in a true self-defense/life or death situation (and who wants broken fingers for sport?). Heck, I've read of people get their arms broken or shoulders dislocated and keep attacking. You think a finger or toe is going to stop them? LOL. With all that said, the biggest advantage of training MMA or BJJ is learning to stay relaxed and make good decisions when a self-defense situation does occur. I might have 30+ simulated fight situations per week (with people who know what they are doing attacking me), how many fights in their lifetime has the person been in who may attack me?
  - austinjp 5y ago
    Hmmm, I think we're partly in agreement. I've also drilled multiple assailant stuff too, although rarely. My point was more about MMA not being the pinnacle of fighting. There's much that an MMA fighter would never learn. But this isn't a criticism, it's just a reality. There's no such thing as the "perfect" fighting style. Incidentally, the reason for banning small joint manipulation is the same reason for banning ballistic joint strikes: avoiding serious injury. I'm certainly not suggesting that breaking someone's finger in a competitive fight would stop them. However, in a mugging/rape situation, breaking fingers and gouging eyes would absolutely be on the cards. Having said all that, I'd most definitely recommend a good MMA class to someone interested in self-defence. I'd probably suggest augmenting it with classes at a good club that has some element of street awareness, or whatever is appropriate to the local context. That might be mugging awareness and avoidance, or what have you
- rasz 5y ago
  those are the guys training in mma gyms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtnV2M1pAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtnV2M1pAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z--ZO3fuhz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z--ZO3fuhz0
  - austinjp 5y ago
    That looks fun :) Although from what I can see from a little Googling, these guys might be more street-fighters than MMA players. Some cross-over, I'm sure. My Polish isn't good enough to tell. I'd like to see what difference some decent strategic training would make in those fights. There are quite a few team combat fights on YouTube now, often staged in Poland and Russia, from what I can see. Most seem to be groups of one-v-one, rather than mass melée.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
It being a cultural expression is (I think, I'm no expert / armchair, etc) an important motivator for erasure. If missionaries think this cultural expression is pagan or anti-christian, they would have tried to suppress or erase it. And it's well-established that China's cultural revolution erased (and is erasing) culture, see also Tibet and the current erasure of Uyghur culture and identity. They seem to have come to an understanding with martial arts, but there were attempts to erase it.
- 7thaccount 5y ago
  Kung Fu is a major tourist attraction for China and part of their cultural heritage, so they're pretty invested in it. There is a Chinese citizen that is a very mediocre MMA fighter who goes around and challenges so called "grand masters" to show how full of BS they are. He's beaten so many without any serious effort that the communist party got upset and downgraded his social credit to where he can no longer fly to the matches to go best more phonies. It's the same thing in any dojo though and there is sadly a bit of a cult perception of thinking each styles grandmaster is some super powerful fighter when in reality they're okay, but could never make it even in a regional MMA match. I feel bad for the Chinese MMA fighter as he sounds like someone with a lot of character, determination, and morals. He believes that Kung Fu is holding his people back I think and that embracing modern techniques is the future of martial arts.
  - propertymagnate 5y ago
    "There is a Chinese citizen that is a very mediocre MMA fighter who goes around and challenges so called "grand masters" to show how full of BS they are." This guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Xiaodong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Xiaodong
    - 7thaccount 5y ago
      I can't edit my original comment, but after re-reading it I hope it didn't come off like I was insulting the fighter. When I say "mediocre" I mean that despite MMA wins (very impressive by itself) I assume he's pretty far from ever being in the UFC. In other words, he represents a fairly average (maybe below average) MMA fighter, yet he was able to take out "master" after "master" in just seconds without any effort. Clearly, MMA is more effective in a fight than Tai-Chi. That isn't an insult to Tai-Chi either, as I think it makes for terrific low-stress excercise and does have some martial merit, just not a whole lot in today's world.
chana_masala 5y ago
However the cultural fighting styles provide a spiritual or religious framework that MMA lacks. Of course some (many?) won't find that an issue, however I think that the spiritual framework includes moral and character building disciplines which are helpful in life (not always and not completely, but much more than MMA)

austinjp 5y ago

Well, MMA is a one-on-one sport, with all that entails. No multiple opponents, no small joint manipulation, no gouging, no biting, no spitting, no striking the neck or back of the head, no kicking the head of a downed opponent.... etc etc. All of which could happen in actual combat and non-sport fighting.

simonh 5y ago
There was a famous Greek fighter who competed in the original Olympics who's preferred tactic was to break all the fingers of his opponent first, before finishing them off. It was pretty normal for fighters to lose teeth or suffer broken bones.
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  This guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sostratus_of_Sicyon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sostratus_of_Sicyon
  - simonh 5y ago
    Go Sostratus!
danenania 5y ago
Apart from multiple opponents, those all seem like fairly minor variations on MMA technique in the sense that defending against the legal MMA attacks naturally defends against the illegal ones as well, and similarly the same skills that allow a fighter to land legal attacks would allow them to land illegal ones in a non-sport situation. It seems unlikely an overall inferior MMA fighter could win just by focusing on specific illegal moves. For multiple opponents, I could certainly see that changing the optimal strategy, but it seems like the odds of winning would still mainly be a function of how strong a fighter is one-on-one, since the only hope is to quickly neutralize the additional opponent(s).
- roel_v 5y ago
  "Monkey steals the peach" is all you need to know to win any fight you're in! Buy my mail order course now, only $19.95!
- aikinai 5y ago
  Attacking eyes, fingers, groin, etc. would change everything. Everyone thinks grappling is more “realistic” than pre-MMA striking styles, but they forget that most of those grappling positions leave tons of delicate targets wide open for poking, ripping, gouging. The effective techniques in MMA are just as defined by the ground rules as any other martial art. Real “anything goes” fighting would be as different from MMA as MMA is from kickboxing.
  - danenania 5y ago
    It changes things, sure, but I think the person best able to adapt and take advantage of those differences would be the better overall fighter, not the person who has practiced more eye gouges or groin kicks. Against a more skilled opponent your attempts to groin kick or break a finger or whatever will most likely lead you to be knocked out or otherwise submitted just like your attempts to choke or side kick would under MMA rules. Being in a position to make those attacks generally implies that your opponent is either less skilled or is deliberately leaving those openings because they know the rules, and could avoid doing so if the rules were different or there weren’t any rules... because ultimately they’re the one in control if they’re a lot better than you at the core skills of fighting. That said, given two otherwise equally skilled fighters, of course the one with more experience under the specific conditions would have an advantage.
  - matwood 5y ago
    It actually wouldn't change much at all. Every MMA fighter already instinctively protects their head which includes eyes. Finger locks are laughable in an actual a fight. I know a person who (I think stupidly), refused to tap to an ankle lock in a BJJ match, broke his ankle, but did win the fight. No finger lock was stopping him. I guess someone could try to kick someone's groin and maybe get one through. An MMA fighter is already trained to check kicks down so again unlikely. And if you think someone is going to drop their hands to get to someone's groin...ok. The reality is BJJ and MMA is basically how most street fight/self-defense situations go down. Untrained people wildly throw some punches and end up on the ground. The only caveat, which every grapplers knows, is pulling guard is a competition only thing. In a 'real' fight you never want to be on the bottom.
roel_v 5y ago
Ah yes, the true and tried "my martial art is too deadly to be tested" argument.
- austinjp 5y ago
  Um... that wasn't my point at all...?
matwood 5y ago
I'm not sure where you train MMA or BJJ, but where I train the self-defense aspect of various grappling techniques are always discussed. There's a reason that it's drilled from day 1 to keep hands inside protecting the head (whether on your feet, ground, or anywhere in between). Next is controlling the shoulders b/c then it's hard for someone to punch. Every grappler knows pulling guard in a real fight is dumb, with the best position being knee on belly b/c it gives control and the ability to assess the situation for more attackers. The reason for the lack of small joint manipulation is that it doesn't really work in a true self-defense/life or death situation (and who wants broken fingers for sport?). Heck, I've read of people get their arms broken or shoulders dislocated and keep attacking. You think a finger or toe is going to stop them? LOL. With all that said, the biggest advantage of training MMA or BJJ is learning to stay relaxed and make good decisions when a self-defense situation does occur. I might have 30+ simulated fight situations per week (with people who know what they are doing attacking me), how many fights in their lifetime has the person been in who may attack me?
- austinjp 5y ago
  Hmmm, I think we're partly in agreement. I've also drilled multiple assailant stuff too, although rarely. My point was more about MMA not being the pinnacle of fighting. There's much that an MMA fighter would never learn. But this isn't a criticism, it's just a reality. There's no such thing as the "perfect" fighting style. Incidentally, the reason for banning small joint manipulation is the same reason for banning ballistic joint strikes: avoiding serious injury. I'm certainly not suggesting that breaking someone's finger in a competitive fight would stop them. However, in a mugging/rape situation, breaking fingers and gouging eyes would absolutely be on the cards. Having said all that, I'd most definitely recommend a good MMA class to someone interested in self-defence. I'd probably suggest augmenting it with classes at a good club that has some element of street awareness, or whatever is appropriate to the local context. That might be mugging awareness and avoidance, or what have you
rasz 5y ago
those are the guys training in mma gyms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtnV2M1pAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtnV2M1pAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z--ZO3fuhz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z--ZO3fuhz0
- austinjp 5y ago
  That looks fun :) Although from what I can see from a little Googling, these guys might be more street-fighters than MMA players. Some cross-over, I'm sure. My Polish isn't good enough to tell. I'd like to see what difference some decent strategic training would make in those fights. There are quite a few team combat fights on YouTube now, often staged in Poland and Russia, from what I can see. Most seem to be groups of one-v-one, rather than mass melée.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

It being a cultural expression is (I think, I'm no expert / armchair, etc) an important motivator for erasure. If missionaries think this cultural expression is pagan or anti-christian, they would have tried to suppress or erase it. And it's well-established that China's cultural revolution erased (and is erasing) culture, see also Tibet and the current erasure of Uyghur culture and identity. They seem to have come to an understanding with martial arts, but there were attempts to erase it.

7thaccount 5y ago
Kung Fu is a major tourist attraction for China and part of their cultural heritage, so they're pretty invested in it. There is a Chinese citizen that is a very mediocre MMA fighter who goes around and challenges so called "grand masters" to show how full of BS they are. He's beaten so many without any serious effort that the communist party got upset and downgraded his social credit to where he can no longer fly to the matches to go best more phonies. It's the same thing in any dojo though and there is sadly a bit of a cult perception of thinking each styles grandmaster is some super powerful fighter when in reality they're okay, but could never make it even in a regional MMA match. I feel bad for the Chinese MMA fighter as he sounds like someone with a lot of character, determination, and morals. He believes that Kung Fu is holding his people back I think and that embracing modern techniques is the future of martial arts.
- propertymagnate 5y ago
  "There is a Chinese citizen that is a very mediocre MMA fighter who goes around and challenges so called "grand masters" to show how full of BS they are." This guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Xiaodong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Xiaodong
  - 7thaccount 5y ago
    I can't edit my original comment, but after re-reading it I hope it didn't come off like I was insulting the fighter. When I say "mediocre" I mean that despite MMA wins (very impressive by itself) I assume he's pretty far from ever being in the UFC. In other words, he represents a fairly average (maybe below average) MMA fighter, yet he was able to take out "master" after "master" in just seconds without any effort. Clearly, MMA is more effective in a fight than Tai-Chi. That isn't an insult to Tai-Chi either, as I think it makes for terrific low-stress excercise and does have some martial merit, just not a whole lot in today's world.

chana_masala 5y ago

However the cultural fighting styles provide a spiritual or religious framework that MMA lacks. Of course some (many?) won't find that an issue, however I think that the spiritual framework includes moral and character building disciplines which are helpful in life (not always and not completely, but much more than MMA)