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As a progressive Muslim - I believe both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist, and thrive. Unfortunately, it looks like the state of Israel has now bec

As a progressive Muslim - I believe both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist, and thrive. Unfortunately, it looks like the state of Israel has now become a needless oppressor and are content building an apartheid state without learning from the past.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago
What does being a "progressive" Muslim have to do with it? Also, do you mean you are affiliated with Muslims for Progressive Values? Otherwise I don't know what makes you "progressive". Do you not believe the Quran is the word of God or something?
rayiner 5y ago
As a conservative former Muslim: As long as Palestinians chant “from the river to the sea” and tolerate Hamas any talk about a two state solution is a joke. By not rejecting Hamas, Palestinians make themselves a military problem rather than a civil rights issue. You don’t give civil rights to people who are military threat. This isn’t a point about morality, but the simple reality of nations protecting themselves. If you don’t have military superiority then scrupulous non-violence is the only alternative.
- crooked-v 5y ago
  Unchecked illegal settlement makes anti-Israeli sentiment inevitable. If the obvious outcome of playing by the rules is losing all their land and livelihood anyway, people won't play by the rules.
- Udik 5y ago
  > the simple reality of nations protecting themselves Israel is stealing from others (this is an established fact), its victims react, so Israel "protects itself" against that reaction. Are you ok with this? Do you think that robbers have a right to protect themselves from their victims?
- let_me_ask_this 5y ago
  The problem with peaceful protest is that it can only work if there is very strong international pressure to stop Israel, because they most definitely won't stop by themselves. The problem with expecting any international pressure, is that America vetos any such event, and Israel work really hard to make sure they always have the backing of all the countries that matter. In any case, Hamas's existence is completely orthogonal to the reason for Israel's aggression. They want more land and less Palestinians on it.
  - metta2uall 5y ago
    All Palestinian violence, especially by Hamas, is used very effectively to gain international sympathy for Israel and to excuse violent & unjust policies. A much greater level of non-violence from the Palestinian side would result in far stronger international pressure, and also domestic American pressure.
    - user982 5y ago
      > A much greater level of non-violence from the Palestinian side would result in far stronger international pressure, and also domestic American pressure. The 2018-2019 Gaza border protests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_...) began with extended peaceful demonstrations and dancing by Palestinians. This was met with live fire from Israel, maiming tens of thousands and killing well over 200 people. There was no meaningful international response, with America only voicing support for Israel's "right to defend itself."
      - metta2uall 5y ago
        Of course that was gross criminality & basically mass murder from the IDF side, but they still used the excuse of Hamas using the protests as cover to attack, to breach the border, to fire flaming kites, etc. Nevertheless there was quite a significant international response and loads of reputational damage to the IDF. The difficulty is that the non-violence has to be deep and prolonged.. The current leadership of Hamas controlling Gaza makes things extremely sad/difficult & is a great gift to the Israeli militarists..
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > As long as Palestinians chant “from the river to the sea” and tolerate Hamas any talk about a two state solution is a joke. Comments like this one are the gears that turn to prevent peace. As with many conflicts, both sides do things that are incompatible with peace, and will not give them up because they see what the other side does. The answer is not to blame one side for reacting to the other. It's not a novel situation at all. There are well-established, well-studied ways to build trust and peace.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  It would be hard for a moderate, compromising government to emerge in this atmosphere where the big guns have already come out.
- p_j_w 5y ago
  >By not rejecting Hamas, Palestinians make themselves a military problem rather than a civil rights issue. Why does this statement not work against Israel for supporting governments that build settlements? Surely the war crime of building settlements is worse than a chant?
- edanm 5y ago
  I don't disagree with your assessment, though it's not like Israel is perfect either - Israelis have been happy to continually vote for people who don't particularly prioritize peace (to put it mildly), and Israel has basically been strategically strengthening their position in negotiations by building settlements for the past 50 years. The situation is complicated exactly because there are few ways forward if neither side has any incentives to compromise (partly for real strategic reasons, partly because the people in charge have goals that are not equivalent to making their people better off).
maybelsyrup 5y ago
> As long as [...], any talk about a two state solution is a joke It sucks to have to say, but no one in any position of power on any side of this conflict believes a two-state solution is possible anymore. That ship sailed a decade ago or so, depending on who you ask, and all of the players have moved on; it's only parts of the public who still believe it's possible. It may still be desirable, of course - I certainly desire it - but the "facts of the ground", as the Israelis love to phrase it, don't allow for it, and won't. (Said "facts" have been engineered for precisely that purpose: to make a Palestinian state impossible to achieve in any reasonable and practical sense.)
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Why do you think it's not possible for the settlers to leave the West Bank? They did from Gaza.
  - js212 5y ago
    It did not go well after they left Gaza. Hamas was elected soon after. I am sure this comes into the calculation.
edgyquant 5y ago
Can we stop throwing around the word apartheid? Just because something is bad, or racist, doesn’t make it apartheid. That is descriptive of an extremely specific economic state that existed in the “dual” economies of South Africa after decolonization. What Israel is doing is not similar to Apartheid.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  I think you'll find that the generalized definition does apply[1] and that Human Rights Watch naturally agrees [2]. In fact it will apply to any ethnostate and Israel does define itself as an ethnostate for Jews. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_(crime) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_(crime) 2. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...

notsureaboutpg 5y ago

What does being a "progressive" Muslim have to do with it? Also, do you mean you are affiliated with Muslims for Progressive Values? Otherwise I don't know what makes you "progressive". Do you not believe the Quran is the word of God or something?

rayiner 5y ago

As a conservative former Muslim: As long as Palestinians chant “from the river to the sea” and tolerate Hamas any talk about a two state solution is a joke. By not rejecting Hamas, Palestinians make themselves a military problem rather than a civil rights issue. You don’t give civil rights to people who are military threat. This isn’t a point about morality, but the simple reality of nations protecting themselves. If you don’t have military superiority then scrupulous non-violence is the only alternative.

crooked-v 5y ago
Unchecked illegal settlement makes anti-Israeli sentiment inevitable. If the obvious outcome of playing by the rules is losing all their land and livelihood anyway, people won't play by the rules.
Udik 5y ago
> the simple reality of nations protecting themselves Israel is stealing from others (this is an established fact), its victims react, so Israel "protects itself" against that reaction. Are you ok with this? Do you think that robbers have a right to protect themselves from their victims?
let_me_ask_this 5y ago
The problem with peaceful protest is that it can only work if there is very strong international pressure to stop Israel, because they most definitely won't stop by themselves. The problem with expecting any international pressure, is that America vetos any such event, and Israel work really hard to make sure they always have the backing of all the countries that matter. In any case, Hamas's existence is completely orthogonal to the reason for Israel's aggression. They want more land and less Palestinians on it.
- metta2uall 5y ago
  All Palestinian violence, especially by Hamas, is used very effectively to gain international sympathy for Israel and to excuse violent & unjust policies. A much greater level of non-violence from the Palestinian side would result in far stronger international pressure, and also domestic American pressure.
  - user982 5y ago
    > A much greater level of non-violence from the Palestinian side would result in far stronger international pressure, and also domestic American pressure. The 2018-2019 Gaza border protests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_...) began with extended peaceful demonstrations and dancing by Palestinians. This was met with live fire from Israel, maiming tens of thousands and killing well over 200 people. There was no meaningful international response, with America only voicing support for Israel's "right to defend itself."
    - metta2uall 5y ago
      Of course that was gross criminality & basically mass murder from the IDF side, but they still used the excuse of Hamas using the protests as cover to attack, to breach the border, to fire flaming kites, etc. Nevertheless there was quite a significant international response and loads of reputational damage to the IDF. The difficulty is that the non-violence has to be deep and prolonged.. The current leadership of Hamas controlling Gaza makes things extremely sad/difficult & is a great gift to the Israeli militarists..
wolverine876 5y ago
> As long as Palestinians chant “from the river to the sea” and tolerate Hamas any talk about a two state solution is a joke. Comments like this one are the gears that turn to prevent peace. As with many conflicts, both sides do things that are incompatible with peace, and will not give them up because they see what the other side does. The answer is not to blame one side for reacting to the other. It's not a novel situation at all. There are well-established, well-studied ways to build trust and peace.
threatofrain 5y ago
It would be hard for a moderate, compromising government to emerge in this atmosphere where the big guns have already come out.
p_j_w 5y ago
>By not rejecting Hamas, Palestinians make themselves a military problem rather than a civil rights issue. Why does this statement not work against Israel for supporting governments that build settlements? Surely the war crime of building settlements is worse than a chant?
edanm 5y ago
I don't disagree with your assessment, though it's not like Israel is perfect either - Israelis have been happy to continually vote for people who don't particularly prioritize peace (to put it mildly), and Israel has basically been strategically strengthening their position in negotiations by building settlements for the past 50 years. The situation is complicated exactly because there are few ways forward if neither side has any incentives to compromise (partly for real strategic reasons, partly because the people in charge have goals that are not equivalent to making their people better off).

maybelsyrup 5y ago

> As long as [...], any talk about a two state solution is a joke It sucks to have to say, but no one in any position of power on any side of this conflict believes a two-state solution is possible anymore. That ship sailed a decade ago or so, depending on who you ask, and all of the players have moved on; it's only parts of the public who still believe it's possible. It may still be desirable, of course - I certainly desire it - but the "facts of the ground", as the Israelis love to phrase it, don't allow for it, and won't. (Said "facts" have been engineered for precisely that purpose: to make a Palestinian state impossible to achieve in any reasonable and practical sense.)

guerrilla 5y ago
Why do you think it's not possible for the settlers to leave the West Bank? They did from Gaza.
- js212 5y ago
  It did not go well after they left Gaza. Hamas was elected soon after. I am sure this comes into the calculation.

edgyquant 5y ago

Can we stop throwing around the word apartheid? Just because something is bad, or racist, doesn’t make it apartheid. That is descriptive of an extremely specific economic state that existed in the “dual” economies of South Africa after decolonization. What Israel is doing is not similar to Apartheid.

guerrilla 5y ago
I think you'll find that the generalized definition does apply[1] and that Human Rights Watch naturally agrees [2]. In fact it will apply to any ethnostate and Israel does define itself as an ethnostate for Jews. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_(crime) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_(crime) 2. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...