6 ms·

I think that what you're seeing is HNers, and techies in general not really understanding that there is a world that exists well outside of their bubble of tech

by blhack 5y ago

I think that what you're seeing is HNers, and techies in general not really understanding that there is a world that exists well outside of their bubble of technology. Bitcoin did not create the concept of ransom. It didn't even create the concept of ransom as a business model for organized crime. See for instance our neighbor to the south: https://www.vox.com/2018/5/11/17276638/mexico-kidnappings-crime-cartels-drug-trade https://www.vox.com/2018/5/11/17276638/mexico-kidnappings-cr... This is such a common thing, that it has been the central plot of several hollywood movies. There are even insurance policies that you can get for it: https://www.mexipass.com/mexico-commercial-insurance/specialty-insurance/kidnap-extorsion-insurance https://www.mexipass.com/mexico-commercial-insurance/special... This is also common in the shipping industry: https://www.reuters.com/article/somalia-piracy/somali-pirates-say-release-syria-ship-after-ransom-idUSLDE74O1JS20110526 https://www.reuters.com/article/somalia-piracy/somali-pirate... And that type of ransoming has had hollywood movies made about it. And again that type of ransoming is common enough to have its own insurance: https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-piracy-marine/marine-insurance-for-piracy-attacks-necessities-and-benefits/ https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-piracy-marine/marine-in... Should we ban shipping? Or ban the internet? Probably not.

mcphage 5y ago
> Should we ban shipping? Shipping is pretty useful, though. What are the other major uses for Bitcoin?
- Mc_Big_G 5y ago
  Ask someone in a country whose currency has been debased.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Those people end up hoarding stable currencies like USD today, how is BTC any better?
- px43 5y ago
  Sending money over the internet. If you don't understand why that's an critical utility for billions of people on this planet, then you're not worth arguing with.
  - grumple 5y ago
    Sending money over the internet is faster and safer using methods that existed before bitcoin (sending via banks / paypal / venmo / cashapp / etc). Crypto does not enable this.
    - px43 5y ago
      None of those services actually let you send money over the internet. All of them are custodial. You give them your money, they hold onto it, and when they feel like it, they might let you interact with other users within their closed ecosystems.
      - grumple 5y ago
        That is a distinction without a difference and a nonsensical one at that. I have money in my bank account and it goes to someone else’s bank account. The same is true for Bitcoin anyway - you have to use exchanges to get money in/out and you are completely dependent on strangers to process your transactions, and they cost far more. Sure you can have your own wallet but it’s entirely useless until you interact with an exchange and the network.
        px43 5y ago
        You've got that backwards, exchanges are only used by people with USD or trying to get USD. The Bitcoin ecosystem did just fine before exchanges existed. I was there. We either mined our own coins, or earned them by doing work for people with coins. It was great. Also recognize the privilege that you were born with that allows you to open a bank account. About a third of the people in this world don't have that luxury. I've used Bitcoin to pay under-served artists and programmers in corners of the world that I had never heard of, and with many of them I never knew where they were located geographically, because it just doesn't matter anymore.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  In the long run? Maybe destroying the petro dollar. One can dream.
  - grumple 5y ago
    This doesn't make sense to me. Are you opposed to people paying for oil, or the influence of oil? Because that still exists whether they are paying with dollars or crypto, and will exist no matter what currency is used.
    - Dah00n 5y ago
      No, I'm opposed to using a currency that is force-fed down the throat of oil producing countries at the the risk of invasion if refused.
- blhack 5y ago
  I don't really know how to ask this question without it sounding insulting, but: do you agree that currency itself is useful? And then the broader question is: do you agree that financial instruments are useful? It seems odd to me that there are so many people on HN who don't seem to understand the importance of finance. You are literally posting on the website of a venture capital firm.
  - mcphage 5y ago
    > do you agree that currency itself is useful? Currency itself is useful, but has existed a lot longer than Bitcoin. If we're trying to evaluate the utility of some new thing, merely the fact that it's another kind of currency really doesn't get you much. Ocean Shipping on the other hand gets you a lot of things that other kind of shipping don't get you.
beloch 5y ago
Ordinary people use shipping and the internet every day. They do not use bitcoin. This article points out that, the last time a similar wave of crime occurred, the way it was defeated was by targeting the banks where the money changes hands. It is because cryptocurrencies do not currently function as usable currencies that the same trick could work again. If governments pass regulations making it illegal for financial institutions to process cryptocurrency transactions, companies/hackers will have no way to convert real money to and from bitcoin ransoms. Companies can't simply gather up bitcoin paid to them by their customers, because almost nobody uses bitcoin as an actual currency. The ransomers won't be able to spend their bitcoin on groceries and vodka because almost nobody uses bitcoin as an actual currency. Both parties need financial institutions to make the transaction work. Cryptocurrencies need to achieve real-world, everyday, legal usefulness fast or they're going to be strangled in their cradle by this. If the cost is massive amounts of energy use and billions of dollars of criminal damage annually, the benefit has to be more than providing a shell-game for finance gamblers and purely hypothetical future benefits.

by blhack 5y ago

mcphage 5y ago

> Should we ban shipping? Shipping is pretty useful, though. What are the other major uses for Bitcoin?

Mc_Big_G 5y ago
Ask someone in a country whose currency has been debased.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Those people end up hoarding stable currencies like USD today, how is BTC any better?
px43 5y ago
Sending money over the internet. If you don't understand why that's an critical utility for billions of people on this planet, then you're not worth arguing with.
- grumple 5y ago
  Sending money over the internet is faster and safer using methods that existed before bitcoin (sending via banks / paypal / venmo / cashapp / etc). Crypto does not enable this.
  - px43 5y ago
    None of those services actually let you send money over the internet. All of them are custodial. You give them your money, they hold onto it, and when they feel like it, they might let you interact with other users within their closed ecosystems.
    - grumple 5y ago
      That is a distinction without a difference and a nonsensical one at that. I have money in my bank account and it goes to someone else’s bank account. The same is true for Bitcoin anyway - you have to use exchanges to get money in/out and you are completely dependent on strangers to process your transactions, and they cost far more. Sure you can have your own wallet but it’s entirely useless until you interact with an exchange and the network.
      - px43 5y ago
        You've got that backwards, exchanges are only used by people with USD or trying to get USD. The Bitcoin ecosystem did just fine before exchanges existed. I was there. We either mined our own coins, or earned them by doing work for people with coins. It was great. Also recognize the privilege that you were born with that allows you to open a bank account. About a third of the people in this world don't have that luxury. I've used Bitcoin to pay under-served artists and programmers in corners of the world that I had never heard of, and with many of them I never knew where they were located geographically, because it just doesn't matter anymore.
Dah00n 5y ago
In the long run? Maybe destroying the petro dollar. One can dream.
- grumple 5y ago
  This doesn't make sense to me. Are you opposed to people paying for oil, or the influence of oil? Because that still exists whether they are paying with dollars or crypto, and will exist no matter what currency is used.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    No, I'm opposed to using a currency that is force-fed down the throat of oil producing countries at the the risk of invasion if refused.
blhack 5y ago
I don't really know how to ask this question without it sounding insulting, but: do you agree that currency itself is useful? And then the broader question is: do you agree that financial instruments are useful? It seems odd to me that there are so many people on HN who don't seem to understand the importance of finance. You are literally posting on the website of a venture capital firm.
- mcphage 5y ago
  > do you agree that currency itself is useful? Currency itself is useful, but has existed a lot longer than Bitcoin. If we're trying to evaluate the utility of some new thing, merely the fact that it's another kind of currency really doesn't get you much. Ocean Shipping on the other hand gets you a lot of things that other kind of shipping don't get you.

beloch 5y ago

Ordinary people use shipping and the internet every day. They do not use bitcoin. This article points out that, the last time a similar wave of crime occurred, the way it was defeated was by targeting the banks where the money changes hands. It is because cryptocurrencies do not currently function as usable currencies that the same trick could work again. If governments pass regulations making it illegal for financial institutions to process cryptocurrency transactions, companies/hackers will have no way to convert real money to and from bitcoin ransoms. Companies can't simply gather up bitcoin paid to them by their customers, because almost nobody uses bitcoin as an actual currency. The ransomers won't be able to spend their bitcoin on groceries and vodka because almost nobody uses bitcoin as an actual currency. Both parties need financial institutions to make the transaction work. Cryptocurrencies need to achieve real-world, everyday, legal usefulness fast or they're going to be strangled in their cradle by this. If the cost is massive amounts of energy use and billions of dollars of criminal damage annually, the benefit has to be more than providing a shell-game for finance gamblers and purely hypothetical future benefits.