6 ms·

> Honestly is it any less "baked in" than the pre-eminent Western powers? Because it's _less_ "baked-in". Germany just recognized their part in a genocide, Chi

by karlp 5y ago

> Honestly is it any less "baked in" than the pre-eminent Western powers? Because it's _less_ "baked-in". Germany just recognized their part in a genocide, China has yet to acknowledge the Tiananmen massacre.

Santosh83 5y ago
Acknowledgement is lip service, especially decades after the fact. If they provide significant compensation, then yes. There is hope for better days for China too, but not by portraying them as unmitigated evil. I can't think of any significant nation that has caved to orchestrated, vested moral outrage and said "sorry you guys... we'll hold elections next years and play by your rules henceforth", especially when the very countries asking for this unrepentant about their own past transgressions costing millions of lives (atomic bombs, Iraq invasion etc.)
- brodo 5y ago
  Germany will provide around 1.1 billion EUR but they will do it by sponsoring social projects over the next 30 years.
  - Daho0n 5y ago
    Do you have other examples?
  - dragonelite 5y ago
    Social project run by western NGOs I guess? What is 1.1 billion when the west steals like 2~3 trillion each year since ww2 from the global south. You can smooth over a lot of mismanagement or save a lot of costs this way. It also seems the dividend from the colonial days is not enough anymore to keep the West going given their infrastructure seem to crumble every year. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13563467.2021.1899153?scroll=top&needAccess=true https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13563467.2021.1...
- riffraff 5y ago
  > I can't think of any significant nation that has caved to orchestrated, vested moral outrage and said "sorry you guys... we'll hold elections next years and play by your rules henceforth", Governments regularly cave in due to protests in democratic countries. It happened in the Netherlands a few months ago, for example. Moreover, it's fundamentally important the fact that protests exist. Comparing any western democracy to a dictatorship is the worst form of whataboutism.
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    > Comparing any western democracy to a dictatorship is the worst form of whataboutism. Perhaps. Or perhaps not acknowledging that under the umbrella of democracy the same things happen, is whataboutism. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... In my country United States specifically did this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change#1947–1970s:_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golpe_Borghese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golpe_Borghese The English version says that it "allegedly" happened while in all the other languages it says it did happen, because it's true. In short, the CIA helped a group of fascists to organise a (failed) coup d'etat in Italy in 1973 fearing that socialist and communists could win the elections and later on were involved in what we call here "black terrorism" far-right terrorism that killed over 200 innocent people putting bombs in railroad stations or in crowded town squares. In Italy, an allied sovereign country. Imagine what they did to their enemies. Funny hu?
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Or perhaps not acknowledging that under the umbrella of democracy the same things happen, is whataboutism. No. That may be denial, but “whataboutism” is a variant (or, really, just a different name for) the tu quoque fallacy that deflects criticism by accusing the critic of hypocritically ignoring the same action they criticize when committed by a friendly party (or committing it themselves). A critic denying that a friendly party engages in the act they are criticizing isn’t “whataboutism”. It may or may not be hypcocrisy, denialism, or something else, but its not whataboutism. OTOH, accusing a critic of whataboutism (and invoking a nonstandard – indeed inverted – definition of “whataboutism” to do it) when they point out whataboutism as a deflection technique, so as to deflect the criticism contained in the original accusation of whataboutism is advanced-level whataboutism.
88840-8855 5y ago
How did they not "acknowledge" it? They did and they do. "They" call it "1989 incident" and despite the Western believe Chinese people are aware of that incident. And yet, most people I have spoken to in my countless trips to China follow the words of Deng Xiaoping that it was worth to sacrifice 3000 lifes for 30 years of stability. Edit: by the way, it annoys me that I got trolled into posting something totally unrelated within a tech article. Why are all Chinese-related articles turning into exactyly the same direction in the past 3 years? I am tired of that.
- ylyn 5y ago
  > it was worth to sacrifice 3000 lifes for 30 years of stability. No one knows what China would be like now had the CCP acceeded to the students' demands and liberalised. Taiwan ended their long period of martial law around the same time too, and for a nation with so much stacked against it, you can hardly say they're doing badly.

by karlp 5y ago

Santosh83 5y ago

Acknowledgement is lip service, especially decades after the fact. If they provide significant compensation, then yes. There is hope for better days for China too, but not by portraying them as unmitigated evil. I can't think of any significant nation that has caved to orchestrated, vested moral outrage and said "sorry you guys... we'll hold elections next years and play by your rules henceforth", especially when the very countries asking for this unrepentant about their own past transgressions costing millions of lives (atomic bombs, Iraq invasion etc.)

brodo 5y ago
Germany will provide around 1.1 billion EUR but they will do it by sponsoring social projects over the next 30 years.
- Daho0n 5y ago
  Do you have other examples?
- dragonelite 5y ago
  Social project run by western NGOs I guess? What is 1.1 billion when the west steals like 2~3 trillion each year since ww2 from the global south. You can smooth over a lot of mismanagement or save a lot of costs this way. It also seems the dividend from the colonial days is not enough anymore to keep the West going given their infrastructure seem to crumble every year. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13563467.2021.1899153?scroll=top&needAccess=true https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13563467.2021.1...
riffraff 5y ago
> I can't think of any significant nation that has caved to orchestrated, vested moral outrage and said "sorry you guys... we'll hold elections next years and play by your rules henceforth", Governments regularly cave in due to protests in democratic countries. It happened in the Netherlands a few months ago, for example. Moreover, it's fundamentally important the fact that protests exist. Comparing any western democracy to a dictatorship is the worst form of whataboutism.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > Comparing any western democracy to a dictatorship is the worst form of whataboutism. Perhaps. Or perhaps not acknowledging that under the umbrella of democracy the same things happen, is whataboutism. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... In my country United States specifically did this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change#1947–1970s:_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golpe_Borghese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golpe_Borghese The English version says that it "allegedly" happened while in all the other languages it says it did happen, because it's true. In short, the CIA helped a group of fascists to organise a (failed) coup d'etat in Italy in 1973 fearing that socialist and communists could win the elections and later on were involved in what we call here "black terrorism" far-right terrorism that killed over 200 innocent people putting bombs in railroad stations or in crowded town squares. In Italy, an allied sovereign country. Imagine what they did to their enemies. Funny hu?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Or perhaps not acknowledging that under the umbrella of democracy the same things happen, is whataboutism. No. That may be denial, but “whataboutism” is a variant (or, really, just a different name for) the tu quoque fallacy that deflects criticism by accusing the critic of hypocritically ignoring the same action they criticize when committed by a friendly party (or committing it themselves). A critic denying that a friendly party engages in the act they are criticizing isn’t “whataboutism”. It may or may not be hypcocrisy, denialism, or something else, but its not whataboutism. OTOH, accusing a critic of whataboutism (and invoking a nonstandard – indeed inverted – definition of “whataboutism” to do it) when they point out whataboutism as a deflection technique, so as to deflect the criticism contained in the original accusation of whataboutism is advanced-level whataboutism.

88840-8855 5y ago

How did they not "acknowledge" it? They did and they do. "They" call it "1989 incident" and despite the Western believe Chinese people are aware of that incident. And yet, most people I have spoken to in my countless trips to China follow the words of Deng Xiaoping that it was worth to sacrifice 3000 lifes for 30 years of stability. Edit: by the way, it annoys me that I got trolled into posting something totally unrelated within a tech article. Why are all Chinese-related articles turning into exactyly the same direction in the past 3 years? I am tired of that.

ylyn 5y ago
> it was worth to sacrifice 3000 lifes for 30 years of stability. No one knows what China would be like now had the CCP acceeded to the students' demands and liberalised. Taiwan ended their long period of martial law around the same time too, and for a nation with so much stacked against it, you can hardly say they're doing badly.