7 ms·

Don't be rich, Live rich

307 points by BioGeek 15y ago

jonmaim 15y ago
Currently doing it in Bangalore, India! Anymore people/couples doing the same right now?
- zml 15y ago
  After getting my degree I will give it a try!
- peng 15y ago
  Currently doing this in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Off to Croatia next!
  - romansanchez 15y ago
    Jealous!
  - hvass 15y ago
    Peng, can you talk about the visas/taxes part? Thanks.
    - Luyt 15y ago
      I don't think traveling workers do anything special with visas - if any visa is needed, they just use a tourist visa. For all business purposes, it looks like they never left their home country; billing is done as if it came from their home business address. I once spent a few months in Spain, where I devoted 30% of my time to developing a C++ application, 30% of my time to learning Spanish, and 30% on touristy things. This was before the Internet era, and I sent in my work each month on a floppy disk, along with an invoice (just as I did from home). I think they never noticed the Spanish post stamps ;-)
- Harkins 15y ago
  Yep. Currently in Montreal on an east-to-west tour across Canada. :)
- keeptrying 15y ago
  Awesome. I'm in Bangalore too while my stuff is halfway between Cali and NYC. My parents live here so don't know it counts :) ... If you would like to grab a drink drop me an email- railsnoob at yahoo dot com. I would love to hear about your travels and how you started doing this.
robertduncan 15y ago
How does immigration law work for this kind of trip? Do you need a work permit/visa?
- rflrob 15y ago
  And where do you need to file taxes?
  - Harkins 15y ago
    If you are an American citizen, you always have to file taxes on wages, no matter where you earn them or who you work for (even if you steal things, you pay taxes on them).
    - rafski 15y ago
      This is distinctive for the US from what I understand. People in most western countries don't have to report to them once they've left other than to renew passports.
      - kingkilr 15y ago
        That's correct, the US does taxes by citizenship, whereas most countries do it by residence.
        rafski 15y ago
        In other words, US citizens are US property.
        ahoyhere 15y ago
        It gets worse: you can give up your US citizenship, but the US claims you must file taxes (and PAY taxes) for 10 years afterwards. We are chattel.
  - Mvandenbergh 15y ago
jonmaim 15y ago
A very useful site to help you find a good city/country is numbeo.com. There you can make cost-of-living comparison between 2 cities. For example, look at the difference between Lausanne, Switzerland and Bangalore, India (the indian silicon valley!) -> bit.ly/ltwXUf
- bravura 15y ago
  I find the Cost of Living Index on the bottom of that site to be suspect. If NYC is 100, Berlin is 91.71? I simply don't trust that. I lived in New York for years, and have spent several weeks in Berlin. Berlin is far cheaper than NYC. It is considered one of the cheapest big cities in Europe. And numbeo says that it is only 10% cheaper than NYC: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/cpi_explained.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/cpi_explained.jsp I find that the estimate on Expatistan seem much more reasonable: http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/berlin/new-york-city http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/berlin/n... Expatistan: NYC is 43% more expensive than Berlin Perhaps this is because Expatistan provides more emphasis on the entertainment category? p.s. Please don't use shortened links on HN.
  - jonmaim 15y ago
    expatisan is very nice for big cities, but as soon as you look for smaller city no data is available.
sjmulder 15y ago
What’s the best way to go about finding places to live for a short time that don’t cost an arm, leg and rib?
- jonmaim 15y ago
  numbeo.com
- Harkins 15y ago
  I've been on the road six months so far, and have been using Craigslist, AirBNB, HomeAway, and VRBO.com. (Though these last two nearly never have sane prices.) You absolutely have to haggle. Every time. Even if you're only staying two days, ask for a discount because you're a quiet computer programmer who knows how to clean up after themself. Other good reasons include last-minute offers and long stays. I've knocked 50% off of ~50 nights so far, the usual discount for even trying anything is 25%, and only once has none of the half-dozen places I've contacted not taken something off the price.
- jen_h 15y ago
  We've been doing this for going on two years now. Off-season--even just by a few weeks--rocks for better pricing. We've gotten a bunch of beautiful places very inexpensively off-season, after school starts, for example...this is in the US; for what we do, we need consistent & reliable Internet access, plus we're traveling with our pet. VRBO & HomeAway have been pretty solid senders, we've tried a bunch of other options, but I don't think we've ever managed to book via any other site (except for one rental straight through the condo complex in an area not well-served by HomeAway/VRBO). Searching VRBO is a pain in the neck, but the owners tend to be a lot more experienced.
  - Harkins 15y ago
    Funny, the only time I've had luck with VRBO/HomeAway is peak season, grabbing last-minute deals on things that would otherwise stand empty. :)
    - jen_h 15y ago
skarayan 15y ago
Moral of the story: structure your life around things you love. Travel is cool, but not for me long term. I love internet startups and getting better with every new idea/execution. Soon, I will be able to stop consulting and get my cash flow from a self sustained business. In the mean time, I consult to fund me ideas. Life is good.
wallflower 15y ago
For inspiration, check out Worldhum and Brave New Traveler: http://bravenewtraveler.com http://bravenewtraveler.com http://worldhum.com http://worldhum.com
sliverstorm 15y ago
Beetle? Vintage? That seems to imply "good"...
- nomadznu 15y ago
  Lol. We did the roads with a small (expensive) rented car. Airco and everything. And then we did it with the beetle: noisy, difficult to steer, fun. It doesn't imply good. It implies 'unforgettable' ;)
georgieporgie 15y ago
What are the best technologies to focus on in order to be mobile/remote? I've notice that nobody is interested in remote C++ development, and the few people I meet who are doing something like this are in some branch of web development.
- cheez 15y ago
  I think the reason for this is C++ is the new COBOL with the commensurate PHBs.
  - nostrademons 15y ago
    The kinds of things you need C++ for - high-performance webservers, database engines, 3D renderers, etc. - often require very close communication between team members to get right. They're deep, not broad - the software is structured as a series of layers, and if you don't get the interfaces between the layers just right, the software won't even compile. Typical webapps are much more horizontal - they consist of a series of screens, and once the basic webserver framework is in place, developers can pretty much parcel out portions of the UI and work on them independently.
    - cheez 15y ago
      This is not true. You can just parcel out those kinds of projects as well (my personal experience) if you are a competent manager. What you are comparing is complexity. Yes, it is easier to parcel out the typical web app than a database engine.
    - rdouble 15y ago
      In my experience it's the opposite. The C++ savant can write the high performance webserver from his basement in Estonia, but you need the webdevs around so they can collaborate with the design team, ops, and product management. When it's deep, work units can be split into days or weeks, which lends itself pretty well to disconnected, remote work. When it's broad, you need to constantly keep everyone on the same page, which equals daily stand-ups, 24x7 chatrooms and other agile forms of humiliation.
maccman 15y ago
I've been doing the same for 9 months now. I've travelled round the whole world, had a fantastic time, and wrote a book for O'Reilly as I went. It's been the best year of my life. In fact, it turns out that writing books is one of the best ways to do this - as it's very flexible and a successful book will just about cover traveling costs. What most people don't realize, is how cheap it is to do this. As always though, everything is best in moderation. I'm yearning to be back in the startup/technology scene - and I will be come September. I'm sure that'll I'll do another trip like this in my twenties though (I'm 21 now).
- Periodic 15y ago
  One thing I'm certain of is that my expenses for a trip like this when I was 21 would have been much lower than for a trip like this now. I've sadly grown accustomed to fancier meals (restaurants over ramen) and softer beds (hotels over hostels). It would be a lot of mental work to keep my expectations down and readjust them to what they were in my student days. It would be a very good exercise though.
  - bergie 15y ago
    I could stay in pretty nice hotels for the price of the rent I pay for the Helsinki flat. Most interesting cities are nowadays so expensive to have a home in, that hotels simply start sounding like an affordable alternative. And even more so if you want to stay in cheaper countries
  - maccman 15y ago
    Yes, hostels through most countries, but hotels in Asia. I live pretty cheaply, but I've actually eaten out every night of the trip. I love the minimalistic lifestyle, having 100 things and living out my bag - I hope I never lose that.
- keeptrying 15y ago
  You should write an ebook on how to do this.
  - 15y ago
rafski 15y ago
Not trying to take away from how fantastic and inspiring a story this is, what's with the "check for grants/subsidizing" bit? Is the ultimate advice "be from a wealthy country that lets you travel on welfare"? :)
- mistermann 15y ago
  Or even better,come to Canada and claim refugee status when you arrive, you get social assistance payments and free dental and health care while you are processed through the queue to determine if you are legitimate, takes about a year. Apparently its quite a popular vacation option for people from Mexico, there is even a "how to" guide online.
  - illumin8 15y ago
    No thanks. Abusing government resources that are intended for real refugees that have had to flee war zones and oppressive governments is not only unethical and rude, it could also land you in jail for welfare fraud.
- nomadznu 15y ago
  In Belgium (and other countries in Europe) there is a gap-year remuneration. It's a bit like the mini-retirements Stefan Sagmeister is talking about. They are meant for this sort of stuff. Next to that there are several ways to do what you want to do: like studying abroad, volunteering. We're not saying what we did should be 'copied', we're saying 'figure out what you want, and find a way to do it' A way that fits you. And that's not the other thing mentioned on the comments.
motters 15y ago
It sounds nice if you can pull it off, but on the occasions where I've been continually moving from place to place I've found it much harder to actually get anything done. Continual travel adds cognitive and other entropic overheads which deplete your mental and energy real estate.
- stevenp 15y ago
  I spent a month in Argentina last year thinking I was going to work on a personal project and got absolutely nothing done, so I can definitely relate. The distractions of foreign places definitely add to the cognitive overhead.
- mike_esspe 15y ago
  Yes, i have the same problem. Many times i thought, that i will build something while traveling, but that never happened :) Though as far as i understood, they solved this with going out as tourists only on weekends.
  - jurjenh 15y ago
    I have this exact problem even without the travel... A couple of days at home without continuous jobs / tasks needing to get done. Great, I can finally get onto doing some work for project X! Except it never happens. Seems my motivation / drive is so depleted that the best way to use the days off is to actually rest. Then I feel great (although generally a little miffed that I didn't get anything done on project X) and for the next several weeks I seem to have more focus and be able to get my everyday things done more effectively. Sometimes the best way to utilise a break is exactly that - have a (complete) break and just rest the mind - I find some physical exercise (surfing) helpful with that too.
    - hetaoblog 15y ago
      agree to some extent, spending time at home for long days will reduce productivity for me...
  - nomadznu 15y ago
stevenp 15y ago
At the beginning of June I went to Chris Guillebeau's first World Domination Summit in Portland, OR (http://worlddominationsummit.com/ http://worlddominationsummit.com/) and met lots of people who are living like this. I highly recommend going next year (I'm already registered!) if you're interested in learning about the techniques people use for lifestyle design.
rdouble 15y ago
This looks like fun, but so many people have done this now, it's almost a cliche. It almost seems more unique to hear about a hacker from NYC documenting a summer working in New Paltz, rather than another story about social media experts working from cafes in Buenos Aires and Thailand.
- kristofferR 15y ago
  True, but that doesn't make it a lesser experience for those who are doing it. I doubt many lifestyle designers do it because "it's the cool thing", they're doing it because it can be an amazing adventure and experience. It's only natural to want to talk about the great experiences you've had.
- viethonk 15y ago
  Do it for yourself. Why do u care what the others are doing? Its for broadening ur horizon and put urself in uncomfortable position everyday
VB6_Foreverr 15y ago
When it comes to discretionary spending I believe the 80:20 rule applies very often. I wanted a smartphone so I got the cheapest Android. I'm sure I'm missing something the most expensive phones have but not much. My car is 12 years old it pretty much does everything a new car does, it doesn't look pretty but I don't have to worry about it being stolen either. It's helpful to look at things from the other end. Companies produce a baseline product for a certain price, they then try to add value which essentially means getting people to pay a whole heap more for not very much extra. Sometimes even the extra is illusory (eg a celebrity endorsement). You can have almost as good the lifestyle of someone with many times your income if you can see past marketing.
econgeeker 15y ago
We've been doing this for three years now. This couple seemed to focus on having a year abroad, we've made it our lifestyle, and we're doing a startup (rather than consulting). I started this as a response to the "how to keep productive" question, but I'll try to address the other questions people have been asking in the thread later on. We also have the issue of taking some period of time to get back into the productive zone. What we do is spend the visa limit time in each country. For americans in the UK that is 6 months, for instance. So we rented an apartment for 6 months. In the Shengen zone (most of europe) it is 3 months, and last year we spent 2.5 months in berlin. In both cases we spent most of the time working a normal lifestyle %90 of the time. After our 2.5 months in berlin we spent a couple weeks traveling as tourists (that's where the other 0.5 months went.) I figure 2 weeks on either side of a relocation are not going to be productive, so might as well spend half of that time, or so, doing tourist stuff. By having such great breaks regularly, we are recharged and I think more productive when we are working. The weird thing is, indoors, the only thing foreign really is the outlets... so it feels like we're still in the USA, but then you step outdoors and the language, accents and architecture are completely different. So you can "travel" across the globe every day. It is really hard to explain that feeling but it is pretty powerful. -- Taxes & Visas-- As far as governments are concerned we're tourists. We present ourselves this way and we get tourist visas. However, for most visas "tourist" and "business" visas are essentially the same. We don't work in any country in the sense that we don't have a job, we don't participate in their employment schemes. We're taxed like americans (the US taxes your income no matter where it is earned). -- As I mentioned we're doing a startup. (We did one and we're just in the process of pivoting so what the new one is at this point is a little vague.) I don't feel out of the technology scene at all-- I have all the same connections I did before we left, except that I can't go to local unconferneces, but I didn't really get much out of them. There is one conference that I miss that is done in the USA only, but we started buying the videos for it. Spending hundreds of dollars on conference videos sounds expensive, but it is cheap compared to actually going there (Even from within the USA). I don't really miss the networking opportunities-- and we're now networking with a real international network. EG: we network with the locals wherever we are. The technology scene really is global. -- Budget: This is a big one. This inhibits a lot of people. However, if you've got an income from your work, and savings to get by in the USA, you can get buy longer when you're traveling. Even traveling in expensive first world places like europe, right now, we're able to live on the budget we were living on in the USA. Overall, we're actually spending a bit less, and we spend a lot less when we are living in lower cost places (even places in eastern europe, which are "expensive" compared to southeast asia, are cheep.) So, we could have remained in the USA, and spent the same amount of money. I don't think we would have gotten any more work done, and we would have had a lot less fun. Plus, as our product is global, better understanding of other countries helps. -- Health insurance: We have the health insurance we had in the USA. It covers us globally. There are specific health insurance plans that cover long term travelers and we might switch, we just haven't done so yet. Neither of us are under 30, nor are we over 50. -- Crazy? You hear a lot of people who knock this idea. Lots of people say "I'd love to do that but I've got responsibilities" or the equivalent. That's fine... just don't presume we're not doing serious work, we aren't doing a "real" startup or anything lie that. These days startups often have employees spread around the globe... we don't have to carry the whole company with us. I think people thinks this is harder than it is. Or maybe for some people the idea of living out of a backpack is tough. Personally, I relish the challenge! Between my laptop, camera, and assorted stuff, I've got about 7 pounds of clothes etc, and 10 pounds of electronics gear. Every time we-repack, we actually shed some unnecessary stuff. It is a process... but I love it.
ori_b 15y ago
How does this work with respect to visas and the like? I don't imagine that countries like you coming in to work and earn money without paying any taxes.
- ahoyhere 15y ago
  Most of those laws apply to people who are earning money locally. All around the world, it's a huge grey area when the work you are doing as a visitor is not local -- such as working for a client back in the US. Since in all my travels, I've never found a country with a clear explanation of what is & isn't allowed wrt remote work, I think of it like this: If you are on a trip and somebody from home calls you to ask you to make a decision on an investment, would that country tax you? No. If your investments back home made lots of money while you were on vacation, would that country tax you? No. What if you wrote emails telling other people what to do? What if you did a little bit of it for them? Etc. The thought experiment goes on.
kristofferR 15y ago
BTW, my favorite podcast is The Lifestyle Business Podcast: http://www.lifestylebusinesspodcast.com/ http://www.lifestylebusinesspodcast.com/ The hosts are two guys who have created a million dollar business in the last three years while traveling. Their business is not some bullshit "blog"/earn money by selling tips on how to make money thing, it's a real business that actually sells physical products. Everybody should check it out. It's a shame that they're charging for the first episodes since it makes it kinda hard to recommend to people (I discovered them before that), but their content is definitely worth paying for. It's probably the best audio-only business content I've heard.
- danspodcast 15y ago
  Thanks for the shout! :D
ilamont 15y ago
Living abroad in your 20s is an unforgettable experience. I lived in Europe and Asia for most of the 1990s, and still look back wistfully at that time of my life. I gave up some early career "juice" but got so much more out of it. Note that doing what the OP did is far more difficult if you have children, although it is possible to work stable jobs in a single country for longer stints with kids.
- josephcooney 15y ago
  'more difficult if you have children' seems like a huge understatement. Especially if they're school-aged.
  - ShirtlessRod 15y ago
    Massive, massive understatement. Not to mention if your children happen to have other issues, such as developmental disabilities, severe food allergies, or other things that make "normal" day-to-day living difficult, without adding the extra stressors related to travel and living abroad on top of that. It is absolutely no coincidence that the vast majority of people who do these sorts of things have no children. This is not to say that I don't think it's commendable to get out in the world like this, because if you can it's a great thing. However, I get annoyed with folks who seem to think there couldn't be any possible reason that someone wouldn't do the same.
  - YvesHanoulle 15y ago
    yes, it is more difficult with kids. Still that does not mean impossible. I moved with my family 6 months to work in Bordeaux. -(France) Joppe (7y) and Bent (5y) went to a French school. Geike (2y)stayed home with her mother. None of the kids spoke French when we left. I was dreaming about this for years, I now realized that all the excuses I had for years, were just that. Excuses. Together with my kids I gave a presentation at the same BarCamp that Ine & Catherine did theirs. At the end I asked everyone: "Would you do it again?" 2 of the 3 kids said they would. My wife said yes but then for longer.
TA662 15y ago
This is just how I'm hoping to spend most of my 20s. I did freelance for a while, and I came to the conclusion that I don't really enjoy doing client work, so now I'm working on a startup instead. Does anybody have experience doing a startup on the road, as opposed to the more common freelancing/blogging/consulting? My aim is to get my SaaS product(s) to the point of requiring almost zero work. (Everything automated, effective 'help' section to keep the amount support emails as low as possible, etc.) This seems impossible with freelancing/blogging/consulting, as you'll only be able to lessen the workload so much (i.e. it can't be self-sustaining), whereas depending on the startup you can theoretically get by on just a few hours work per week, while your revenues are still increasing.
- jen_h 15y ago
  Voxilate/HeyTell was built on the road; inside the US, though, as we've a pretty important server component and we've learned that if we are both offline, bad things happen. I.e., if we have to fly somewhere, we don't fly together. Phones on multiple networks capable of tethering, a wireless broadband card and a router that'll use it are a must-have (our Cradlepoint's been a champ...the Mifi's cool, but the ability to plug a card or Ethernet or both into the CP rocks). We've had a blast and we're still going gangbusters after almost two years on the road - so it's totally doable. My advice would be not to be too disappointed if your zero-work aim is never achieved (maybe you could get away with this if you didn't have users or a server component...hah!); we pretty much work around the clock, but we love it. We have an old blog post from our first month mobile about reducing burn rates while doing this sort of thing if you're interested - http://voxilate.blogspot.com/2010/01/reduce-your-micro-startup-burn-rateand.html http://voxilate.blogspot.com/2010/01/reduce-your-micro-start... - it could stand some updating, but still pretty much applies (plus, the user comment was spot-on).
- toumhi 15y ago
  Currently on the road in south east Asia while launching several (small) web apps/products. Definitely not easy, will be back in Europe in 1 month at least for a few months. You can check my blog www.sparklewise.com for stories about it ;-)
irahul 15y ago
> Don't be rich, Live rich. Why not be rich and live rich. I get the "Live rich" part but that "Don't be rich" is unwarranted.
- diggum 15y ago
  I believe the point is "Why wait UNTIL you're rich to enjoy a lifestyle perceived as only being available TO the rich."
- jbrains 15y ago
  I think you're overanalysing a phrase written by people whose first language is not English. :) I interpret it as "Don't kill yourself to make money if you can live /like/ you already have it."
bignoggins 15y ago
My wife and I are currently doing something similar. Traveling the world (4 continents, 20+ countries). She's working on photography and blogging while I'm developing my own iphone apps. Best decision we've ever made, and haven't looked back since (been on the road for 3 months, currently at an airbnb in Taiwan). My wife keeps a blog at http://www.shenventure.com http://www.shenventure.com if you're interested in reading about how we did it.
dennisgorelik 15y ago
Internet allows "rich live" without actual traveling. Besides, if you have kids, traveling is much harder / expensive.
- maigret 15y ago
  Can you explain the first line a bit more? I am a NY fan and maintain electronic contacts with many people there, but it's nothing compared to being there in person in my opinion.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    Now that we can even use video in electronic communications the difference with "in person" is getting really slim. For me advantages of electronic communications (speed, easy accessibility, various tools such as HN, conversation logs) outweigh "in person" communication most of the time.
    - maigret 15y ago
      I find electronic communication fine for most work tasks - but definitely not enough for tourism. Also not for seeing loved ones like my best friends and family.
      - dennisgorelik 15y ago
        That would change with time (technology): in the end all our perception translates into electrical impulses in our brains anyway.
hetaoblog 15y ago
interesting experience. for people running personal web business, maybe this is worth trying for some period; I just started to do something during weekends, hope it can grow big to cover my daily job
Tichy 15y ago
Wouldn't the rich way to do it be to buy a yacht and float from place to place?
- maigret 15y ago
  You're right! That would be the rich way and would be of course totally awesome. You have to be really successful before to be able to do that though ;) That would just make 99% of the readers feel miserable as a result...
- eitally 15y ago
  This is the way people with kids do it. :)
seanharper 15y ago
This is fascinating, and I would really like to try this at some point. However, I am 30, married and have a 1 year old kid. Does anyone have any similar resources, examples, for people who have done this with kid(s)?
- carlio 15y ago
  Here are a few that I've come across over the last year or so: http://manvsdebt.com/ http://manvsdebt.com/ http://twitter.com/sperrazzo http://twitter.com/sperrazzo http://almostfearless.com/about/ http://almostfearless.com/about/ http://locationindependent.com/ http://locationindependent.com/
- orofino 15y ago
  With kids this is the best I've found http://travelswithanineyearold.com/ http://travelswithanineyearold.com/
- YvesHanoulle 15y ago
  I moved with my family for 6 months with 3 kids: 7,5 and 2 year old.
dolvlo 15y ago
typical white people
jbrains 15y ago
The most fun part of this lifestyle is being able to say "I'd like to go to Paris again this year", then finding work close enough to Paris to pay for going to Paris. By not needing to squeeze every dollar out of my trips, I can be much more flexible and enjoy the travel more.

307 points by BioGeek 15y ago

jonmaim 15y ago

Currently doing it in Bangalore, India! Anymore people/couples doing the same right now?

zml 15y ago
After getting my degree I will give it a try!
peng 15y ago
Currently doing this in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Off to Croatia next!
- romansanchez 15y ago
  Jealous!
- hvass 15y ago
  Peng, can you talk about the visas/taxes part? Thanks.
  - Luyt 15y ago
    I don't think traveling workers do anything special with visas - if any visa is needed, they just use a tourist visa. For all business purposes, it looks like they never left their home country; billing is done as if it came from their home business address. I once spent a few months in Spain, where I devoted 30% of my time to developing a C++ application, 30% of my time to learning Spanish, and 30% on touristy things. This was before the Internet era, and I sent in my work each month on a floppy disk, along with an invoice (just as I did from home). I think they never noticed the Spanish post stamps ;-)
Harkins 15y ago
Yep. Currently in Montreal on an east-to-west tour across Canada. :)
keeptrying 15y ago
Awesome. I'm in Bangalore too while my stuff is halfway between Cali and NYC. My parents live here so don't know it counts :) ... If you would like to grab a drink drop me an email- railsnoob at yahoo dot com. I would love to hear about your travels and how you started doing this.

robertduncan 15y ago

How does immigration law work for this kind of trip? Do you need a work permit/visa?

rflrob 15y ago
And where do you need to file taxes?
- Harkins 15y ago
  If you are an American citizen, you always have to file taxes on wages, no matter where you earn them or who you work for (even if you steal things, you pay taxes on them).
  - rafski 15y ago
    This is distinctive for the US from what I understand. People in most western countries don't have to report to them once they've left other than to renew passports.
    - kingkilr 15y ago
      That's correct, the US does taxes by citizenship, whereas most countries do it by residence.
      - rafski 15y ago
        In other words, US citizens are US property.
        ahoyhere 15y ago
        It gets worse: you can give up your US citizenship, but the US claims you must file taxes (and PAY taxes) for 10 years afterwards. We are chattel.
- Mvandenbergh 15y ago

jonmaim 15y ago

A very useful site to help you find a good city/country is numbeo.com. There you can make cost-of-living comparison between 2 cities. For example, look at the difference between Lausanne, Switzerland and Bangalore, India (the indian silicon valley!) -> bit.ly/ltwXUf

bravura 15y ago
I find the Cost of Living Index on the bottom of that site to be suspect. If NYC is 100, Berlin is 91.71? I simply don't trust that. I lived in New York for years, and have spent several weeks in Berlin. Berlin is far cheaper than NYC. It is considered one of the cheapest big cities in Europe. And numbeo says that it is only 10% cheaper than NYC: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/cpi_explained.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/cpi_explained.jsp I find that the estimate on Expatistan seem much more reasonable: http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/berlin/new-york-city http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/berlin/n... Expatistan: NYC is 43% more expensive than Berlin Perhaps this is because Expatistan provides more emphasis on the entertainment category? p.s. Please don't use shortened links on HN.
- jonmaim 15y ago
  expatisan is very nice for big cities, but as soon as you look for smaller city no data is available.

sjmulder 15y ago

What’s the best way to go about finding places to live for a short time that don’t cost an arm, leg and rib?

jonmaim 15y ago
numbeo.com
Harkins 15y ago
I've been on the road six months so far, and have been using Craigslist, AirBNB, HomeAway, and VRBO.com. (Though these last two nearly never have sane prices.) You absolutely have to haggle. Every time. Even if you're only staying two days, ask for a discount because you're a quiet computer programmer who knows how to clean up after themself. Other good reasons include last-minute offers and long stays. I've knocked 50% off of ~50 nights so far, the usual discount for even trying anything is 25%, and only once has none of the half-dozen places I've contacted not taken something off the price.
jen_h 15y ago
We've been doing this for going on two years now. Off-season--even just by a few weeks--rocks for better pricing. We've gotten a bunch of beautiful places very inexpensively off-season, after school starts, for example...this is in the US; for what we do, we need consistent & reliable Internet access, plus we're traveling with our pet. VRBO & HomeAway have been pretty solid senders, we've tried a bunch of other options, but I don't think we've ever managed to book via any other site (except for one rental straight through the condo complex in an area not well-served by HomeAway/VRBO). Searching VRBO is a pain in the neck, but the owners tend to be a lot more experienced.
- Harkins 15y ago
  Funny, the only time I've had luck with VRBO/HomeAway is peak season, grabbing last-minute deals on things that would otherwise stand empty. :)
  - jen_h 15y ago

skarayan 15y ago

Moral of the story: structure your life around things you love. Travel is cool, but not for me long term. I love internet startups and getting better with every new idea/execution. Soon, I will be able to stop consulting and get my cash flow from a self sustained business. In the mean time, I consult to fund me ideas. Life is good.

wallflower 15y ago

For inspiration, check out Worldhum and Brave New Traveler: http://bravenewtraveler.com http://bravenewtraveler.com http://worldhum.com http://worldhum.com

sliverstorm 15y ago

Beetle? Vintage? That seems to imply "good"...

nomadznu 15y ago
Lol. We did the roads with a small (expensive) rented car. Airco and everything. And then we did it with the beetle: noisy, difficult to steer, fun. It doesn't imply good. It implies 'unforgettable' ;)

georgieporgie 15y ago

What are the best technologies to focus on in order to be mobile/remote? I've notice that nobody is interested in remote C++ development, and the few people I meet who are doing something like this are in some branch of web development.

cheez 15y ago
I think the reason for this is C++ is the new COBOL with the commensurate PHBs.
- nostrademons 15y ago
  The kinds of things you need C++ for - high-performance webservers, database engines, 3D renderers, etc. - often require very close communication between team members to get right. They're deep, not broad - the software is structured as a series of layers, and if you don't get the interfaces between the layers just right, the software won't even compile. Typical webapps are much more horizontal - they consist of a series of screens, and once the basic webserver framework is in place, developers can pretty much parcel out portions of the UI and work on them independently.
  - cheez 15y ago
    This is not true. You can just parcel out those kinds of projects as well (my personal experience) if you are a competent manager. What you are comparing is complexity. Yes, it is easier to parcel out the typical web app than a database engine.
  - rdouble 15y ago
    In my experience it's the opposite. The C++ savant can write the high performance webserver from his basement in Estonia, but you need the webdevs around so they can collaborate with the design team, ops, and product management. When it's deep, work units can be split into days or weeks, which lends itself pretty well to disconnected, remote work. When it's broad, you need to constantly keep everyone on the same page, which equals daily stand-ups, 24x7 chatrooms and other agile forms of humiliation.

maccman 15y ago

I've been doing the same for 9 months now. I've travelled round the whole world, had a fantastic time, and wrote a book for O'Reilly as I went. It's been the best year of my life. In fact, it turns out that writing books is one of the best ways to do this - as it's very flexible and a successful book will just about cover traveling costs. What most people don't realize, is how cheap it is to do this. As always though, everything is best in moderation. I'm yearning to be back in the startup/technology scene - and I will be come September. I'm sure that'll I'll do another trip like this in my twenties though (I'm 21 now).

Periodic 15y ago
One thing I'm certain of is that my expenses for a trip like this when I was 21 would have been much lower than for a trip like this now. I've sadly grown accustomed to fancier meals (restaurants over ramen) and softer beds (hotels over hostels). It would be a lot of mental work to keep my expectations down and readjust them to what they were in my student days. It would be a very good exercise though.
- bergie 15y ago
  I could stay in pretty nice hotels for the price of the rent I pay for the Helsinki flat. Most interesting cities are nowadays so expensive to have a home in, that hotels simply start sounding like an affordable alternative. And even more so if you want to stay in cheaper countries
- maccman 15y ago
  Yes, hostels through most countries, but hotels in Asia. I live pretty cheaply, but I've actually eaten out every night of the trip. I love the minimalistic lifestyle, having 100 things and living out my bag - I hope I never lose that.
keeptrying 15y ago
You should write an ebook on how to do this.
- 15y ago

rafski 15y ago

Not trying to take away from how fantastic and inspiring a story this is, what's with the "check for grants/subsidizing" bit? Is the ultimate advice "be from a wealthy country that lets you travel on welfare"? :)

mistermann 15y ago
Or even better,come to Canada and claim refugee status when you arrive, you get social assistance payments and free dental and health care while you are processed through the queue to determine if you are legitimate, takes about a year. Apparently its quite a popular vacation option for people from Mexico, there is even a "how to" guide online.
- illumin8 15y ago
  No thanks. Abusing government resources that are intended for real refugees that have had to flee war zones and oppressive governments is not only unethical and rude, it could also land you in jail for welfare fraud.
nomadznu 15y ago
In Belgium (and other countries in Europe) there is a gap-year remuneration. It's a bit like the mini-retirements Stefan Sagmeister is talking about. They are meant for this sort of stuff. Next to that there are several ways to do what you want to do: like studying abroad, volunteering. We're not saying what we did should be 'copied', we're saying 'figure out what you want, and find a way to do it' A way that fits you. And that's not the other thing mentioned on the comments.

motters 15y ago

It sounds nice if you can pull it off, but on the occasions where I've been continually moving from place to place I've found it much harder to actually get anything done. Continual travel adds cognitive and other entropic overheads which deplete your mental and energy real estate.

stevenp 15y ago
I spent a month in Argentina last year thinking I was going to work on a personal project and got absolutely nothing done, so I can definitely relate. The distractions of foreign places definitely add to the cognitive overhead.
mike_esspe 15y ago
Yes, i have the same problem. Many times i thought, that i will build something while traveling, but that never happened :) Though as far as i understood, they solved this with going out as tourists only on weekends.
- jurjenh 15y ago
  I have this exact problem even without the travel... A couple of days at home without continuous jobs / tasks needing to get done. Great, I can finally get onto doing some work for project X! Except it never happens. Seems my motivation / drive is so depleted that the best way to use the days off is to actually rest. Then I feel great (although generally a little miffed that I didn't get anything done on project X) and for the next several weeks I seem to have more focus and be able to get my everyday things done more effectively. Sometimes the best way to utilise a break is exactly that - have a (complete) break and just rest the mind - I find some physical exercise (surfing) helpful with that too.
  - hetaoblog 15y ago
    agree to some extent, spending time at home for long days will reduce productivity for me...
- nomadznu 15y ago

stevenp 15y ago

At the beginning of June I went to Chris Guillebeau's first World Domination Summit in Portland, OR (http://worlddominationsummit.com/ http://worlddominationsummit.com/) and met lots of people who are living like this. I highly recommend going next year (I'm already registered!) if you're interested in learning about the techniques people use for lifestyle design.

rdouble 15y ago

This looks like fun, but so many people have done this now, it's almost a cliche. It almost seems more unique to hear about a hacker from NYC documenting a summer working in New Paltz, rather than another story about social media experts working from cafes in Buenos Aires and Thailand.

kristofferR 15y ago
True, but that doesn't make it a lesser experience for those who are doing it. I doubt many lifestyle designers do it because "it's the cool thing", they're doing it because it can be an amazing adventure and experience. It's only natural to want to talk about the great experiences you've had.
viethonk 15y ago
Do it for yourself. Why do u care what the others are doing? Its for broadening ur horizon and put urself in uncomfortable position everyday

VB6_Foreverr 15y ago

When it comes to discretionary spending I believe the 80:20 rule applies very often. I wanted a smartphone so I got the cheapest Android. I'm sure I'm missing something the most expensive phones have but not much. My car is 12 years old it pretty much does everything a new car does, it doesn't look pretty but I don't have to worry about it being stolen either. It's helpful to look at things from the other end. Companies produce a baseline product for a certain price, they then try to add value which essentially means getting people to pay a whole heap more for not very much extra. Sometimes even the extra is illusory (eg a celebrity endorsement). You can have almost as good the lifestyle of someone with many times your income if you can see past marketing.

econgeeker 15y ago

We've been doing this for three years now. This couple seemed to focus on having a year abroad, we've made it our lifestyle, and we're doing a startup (rather than consulting). I started this as a response to the "how to keep productive" question, but I'll try to address the other questions people have been asking in the thread later on. We also have the issue of taking some period of time to get back into the productive zone. What we do is spend the visa limit time in each country. For americans in the UK that is 6 months, for instance. So we rented an apartment for 6 months. In the Shengen zone (most of europe) it is 3 months, and last year we spent 2.5 months in berlin. In both cases we spent most of the time working a normal lifestyle %90 of the time. After our 2.5 months in berlin we spent a couple weeks traveling as tourists (that's where the other 0.5 months went.) I figure 2 weeks on either side of a relocation are not going to be productive, so might as well spend half of that time, or so, doing tourist stuff. By having such great breaks regularly, we are recharged and I think more productive when we are working. The weird thing is, indoors, the only thing foreign really is the outlets... so it feels like we're still in the USA, but then you step outdoors and the language, accents and architecture are completely different. So you can "travel" across the globe every day. It is really hard to explain that feeling but it is pretty powerful. -- Taxes & Visas-- As far as governments are concerned we're tourists. We present ourselves this way and we get tourist visas. However, for most visas "tourist" and "business" visas are essentially the same. We don't work in any country in the sense that we don't have a job, we don't participate in their employment schemes. We're taxed like americans (the US taxes your income no matter where it is earned). -- As I mentioned we're doing a startup. (We did one and we're just in the process of pivoting so what the new one is at this point is a little vague.) I don't feel out of the technology scene at all-- I have all the same connections I did before we left, except that I can't go to local unconferneces, but I didn't really get much out of them. There is one conference that I miss that is done in the USA only, but we started buying the videos for it. Spending hundreds of dollars on conference videos sounds expensive, but it is cheap compared to actually going there (Even from within the USA). I don't really miss the networking opportunities-- and we're now networking with a real international network. EG: we network with the locals wherever we are. The technology scene really is global. -- Budget: This is a big one. This inhibits a lot of people. However, if you've got an income from your work, and savings to get by in the USA, you can get buy longer when you're traveling. Even traveling in expensive first world places like europe, right now, we're able to live on the budget we were living on in the USA. Overall, we're actually spending a bit less, and we spend a lot less when we are living in lower cost places (even places in eastern europe, which are "expensive" compared to southeast asia, are cheep.) So, we could have remained in the USA, and spent the same amount of money. I don't think we would have gotten any more work done, and we would have had a lot less fun. Plus, as our product is global, better understanding of other countries helps. -- Health insurance: We have the health insurance we had in the USA. It covers us globally. There are specific health insurance plans that cover long term travelers and we might switch, we just haven't done so yet. Neither of us are under 30, nor are we over 50. -- Crazy? You hear a lot of people who knock this idea. Lots of people say "I'd love to do that but I've got responsibilities" or the equivalent. That's fine... just don't presume we're not doing serious work, we aren't doing a "real" startup or anything lie that. These days startups often have employees spread around the globe... we don't have to carry the whole company with us. I think people thinks this is harder than it is. Or maybe for some people the idea of living out of a backpack is tough. Personally, I relish the challenge! Between my laptop, camera, and assorted stuff, I've got about 7 pounds of clothes etc, and 10 pounds of electronics gear. Every time we-repack, we actually shed some unnecessary stuff. It is a process... but I love it.

ori_b 15y ago

How does this work with respect to visas and the like? I don't imagine that countries like you coming in to work and earn money without paying any taxes.

ahoyhere 15y ago
Most of those laws apply to people who are earning money locally. All around the world, it's a huge grey area when the work you are doing as a visitor is not local -- such as working for a client back in the US. Since in all my travels, I've never found a country with a clear explanation of what is & isn't allowed wrt remote work, I think of it like this: If you are on a trip and somebody from home calls you to ask you to make a decision on an investment, would that country tax you? No. If your investments back home made lots of money while you were on vacation, would that country tax you? No. What if you wrote emails telling other people what to do? What if you did a little bit of it for them? Etc. The thought experiment goes on.

kristofferR 15y ago

BTW, my favorite podcast is The Lifestyle Business Podcast: http://www.lifestylebusinesspodcast.com/ http://www.lifestylebusinesspodcast.com/ The hosts are two guys who have created a million dollar business in the last three years while traveling. Their business is not some bullshit "blog"/earn money by selling tips on how to make money thing, it's a real business that actually sells physical products. Everybody should check it out. It's a shame that they're charging for the first episodes since it makes it kinda hard to recommend to people (I discovered them before that), but their content is definitely worth paying for. It's probably the best audio-only business content I've heard.

danspodcast 15y ago
Thanks for the shout! :D

ilamont 15y ago

Living abroad in your 20s is an unforgettable experience. I lived in Europe and Asia for most of the 1990s, and still look back wistfully at that time of my life. I gave up some early career "juice" but got so much more out of it. Note that doing what the OP did is far more difficult if you have children, although it is possible to work stable jobs in a single country for longer stints with kids.

josephcooney 15y ago
'more difficult if you have children' seems like a huge understatement. Especially if they're school-aged.
- ShirtlessRod 15y ago
  Massive, massive understatement. Not to mention if your children happen to have other issues, such as developmental disabilities, severe food allergies, or other things that make "normal" day-to-day living difficult, without adding the extra stressors related to travel and living abroad on top of that. It is absolutely no coincidence that the vast majority of people who do these sorts of things have no children. This is not to say that I don't think it's commendable to get out in the world like this, because if you can it's a great thing. However, I get annoyed with folks who seem to think there couldn't be any possible reason that someone wouldn't do the same.
- YvesHanoulle 15y ago
  yes, it is more difficult with kids. Still that does not mean impossible. I moved with my family 6 months to work in Bordeaux. -(France) Joppe (7y) and Bent (5y) went to a French school. Geike (2y)stayed home with her mother. None of the kids spoke French when we left. I was dreaming about this for years, I now realized that all the excuses I had for years, were just that. Excuses. Together with my kids I gave a presentation at the same BarCamp that Ine & Catherine did theirs. At the end I asked everyone: "Would you do it again?" 2 of the 3 kids said they would. My wife said yes but then for longer.

TA662 15y ago

This is just how I'm hoping to spend most of my 20s. I did freelance for a while, and I came to the conclusion that I don't really enjoy doing client work, so now I'm working on a startup instead. Does anybody have experience doing a startup on the road, as opposed to the more common freelancing/blogging/consulting? My aim is to get my SaaS product(s) to the point of requiring almost zero work. (Everything automated, effective 'help' section to keep the amount support emails as low as possible, etc.) This seems impossible with freelancing/blogging/consulting, as you'll only be able to lessen the workload so much (i.e. it can't be self-sustaining), whereas depending on the startup you can theoretically get by on just a few hours work per week, while your revenues are still increasing.

jen_h 15y ago
Voxilate/HeyTell was built on the road; inside the US, though, as we've a pretty important server component and we've learned that if we are both offline, bad things happen. I.e., if we have to fly somewhere, we don't fly together. Phones on multiple networks capable of tethering, a wireless broadband card and a router that'll use it are a must-have (our Cradlepoint's been a champ...the Mifi's cool, but the ability to plug a card or Ethernet or both into the CP rocks). We've had a blast and we're still going gangbusters after almost two years on the road - so it's totally doable. My advice would be not to be too disappointed if your zero-work aim is never achieved (maybe you could get away with this if you didn't have users or a server component...hah!); we pretty much work around the clock, but we love it. We have an old blog post from our first month mobile about reducing burn rates while doing this sort of thing if you're interested - http://voxilate.blogspot.com/2010/01/reduce-your-micro-startup-burn-rateand.html http://voxilate.blogspot.com/2010/01/reduce-your-micro-start... - it could stand some updating, but still pretty much applies (plus, the user comment was spot-on).
toumhi 15y ago
Currently on the road in south east Asia while launching several (small) web apps/products. Definitely not easy, will be back in Europe in 1 month at least for a few months. You can check my blog www.sparklewise.com for stories about it ;-)

irahul 15y ago

> Don't be rich, Live rich. Why not be rich and live rich. I get the "Live rich" part but that "Don't be rich" is unwarranted.

diggum 15y ago
I believe the point is "Why wait UNTIL you're rich to enjoy a lifestyle perceived as only being available TO the rich."
jbrains 15y ago
I think you're overanalysing a phrase written by people whose first language is not English. :) I interpret it as "Don't kill yourself to make money if you can live /like/ you already have it."

bignoggins 15y ago

My wife and I are currently doing something similar. Traveling the world (4 continents, 20+ countries). She's working on photography and blogging while I'm developing my own iphone apps. Best decision we've ever made, and haven't looked back since (been on the road for 3 months, currently at an airbnb in Taiwan). My wife keeps a blog at http://www.shenventure.com http://www.shenventure.com if you're interested in reading about how we did it.

dennisgorelik 15y ago

Internet allows "rich live" without actual traveling. Besides, if you have kids, traveling is much harder / expensive.

maigret 15y ago
Can you explain the first line a bit more? I am a NY fan and maintain electronic contacts with many people there, but it's nothing compared to being there in person in my opinion.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  Now that we can even use video in electronic communications the difference with "in person" is getting really slim. For me advantages of electronic communications (speed, easy accessibility, various tools such as HN, conversation logs) outweigh "in person" communication most of the time.
  - maigret 15y ago
    I find electronic communication fine for most work tasks - but definitely not enough for tourism. Also not for seeing loved ones like my best friends and family.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      That would change with time (technology): in the end all our perception translates into electrical impulses in our brains anyway.

hetaoblog 15y ago

interesting experience. for people running personal web business, maybe this is worth trying for some period; I just started to do something during weekends, hope it can grow big to cover my daily job

Tichy 15y ago

Wouldn't the rich way to do it be to buy a yacht and float from place to place?

maigret 15y ago
You're right! That would be the rich way and would be of course totally awesome. You have to be really successful before to be able to do that though ;) That would just make 99% of the readers feel miserable as a result...
eitally 15y ago
This is the way people with kids do it. :)

seanharper 15y ago

This is fascinating, and I would really like to try this at some point. However, I am 30, married and have a 1 year old kid. Does anyone have any similar resources, examples, for people who have done this with kid(s)?

carlio 15y ago
Here are a few that I've come across over the last year or so: http://manvsdebt.com/ http://manvsdebt.com/ http://twitter.com/sperrazzo http://twitter.com/sperrazzo http://almostfearless.com/about/ http://almostfearless.com/about/ http://locationindependent.com/ http://locationindependent.com/
orofino 15y ago
With kids this is the best I've found http://travelswithanineyearold.com/ http://travelswithanineyearold.com/
YvesHanoulle 15y ago
I moved with my family for 6 months with 3 kids: 7,5 and 2 year old.

dolvlo 15y ago

typical white people

jbrains 15y ago

The most fun part of this lifestyle is being able to say "I'd like to go to Paris again this year", then finding work close enough to Paris to pay for going to Paris. By not needing to squeeze every dollar out of my trips, I can be much more flexible and enjoy the travel more.