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"Win at what you do" is one of those rah-rah go-getter mindset phrasing that has infected the Western world. Do you "win" at being happy? Having fulfilling rela

"Win at what you do" is one of those rah-rah go-getter mindset phrasing that has infected the Western world. Do you "win" at being happy? Having fulfilling relationships? Is everything a game/competition, to be measured with winning and losing?

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
Let me rephrase: doesn't everyone want to win the game they choose to play? If you don't then maybe you picked the wrong game. If you choose to strive for a fulfilling relationship, and you succeed in achieving that then yes, you've won. I only use the analogy of life as a game because it resonates with me. There are other ways to phrase what I'm saying.
- stavros_ 5y ago
  I choose to play fighting games, and I get my current fix from Dark Souls - an asymmetric fighting game. I enjoy winning, and I structure my play around intentional practice so that I can improve. But I don't want to win. This is an important nuance. Do you know what winning means? It means the game is over. It means there's no more challenge, no more adversary. It means boredom and purposelessness. Rather than winning, what I want is to fight. Focusing on the outcome of the fight is missing the forest for the trees - the fun is in the conflict, in the struggle with your opponent(s), in the instinctive collaboration with your occassional teammate. In the glory of the defeat, as well as victory. Unless you've got firsthand experience of this, you won't believe how wonderful it feels to get your ass handed to you by a truly superior player. To put the gaming analogy aside, life will always have its ups and downs. Life will always take you somewhere unexpected. Fixating on outcomes will blind you to opportunities and invite needless suffering into your life.
  - biren34 5y ago
    In video games--and life--the only rewards for success are a transient celebration and a harder level.
  - Noos 5y ago
    It really doesn't feel wonderful in fighting games. A superior player can easily trap you in a corner and take your life down to half or more with a single combo string. It's like playing chess against someone entirely more skilled; everything you try to do gets responded to at a level far above you. There really isn't any "wonderful" about it; you could end up watching a video and getting the same result, for all you could do in the match. There is no "glory" in this. A lot of the "play to improve" mindset is a result of needing to make a stupid level of effort to win games, with players going on long loss series due to low population and over-skilled players in the brackets they are in. This is why the fighting game genre struggles to get new players in the game at all-you have to work so much to get to where the fun is or to feel good about your efforts.
    - stavros_ 5y ago
      So game and metagame are important here. Overall, I agree with your point. This is the reason I don't play those games, or in those ultra-competitive brackets. I don't think we're necessarily contradicting eachother. I choose to play fighting games for the fight, rather than the victory, and thus tailor my choices within that genre to suit me. To offer a couple of 'parallel' examples to your own: Player A is at a significantly higher level than player B, and 'stifles' player B through consistent reads and conditioning. Nothing player B tries works, everything player B does seems to play exactly into player As hands. This is almost a restatement of your example, except it was a highly rewarding experience for me. In the language of cognitive psychology, it brought about a powerful flow state. The two key differences: 1.) that the skill imbalance was not too great - just great enough - and 2.) that the nature of the game's design and the players' choices in tactics/playstyles ommitted the more obnoxious elements of combat. My second parallel example is simply my first, reversed: I am player A, and my opponent is player B. Everything plays out the same. Interesting, that. Because implicit in player A's skill is that they are in control of the fight - they can, usually, make things fairly unpleasant and dirty for the opponent. It doesn't take much to push someone past the mental edge, to knock them off balance and keep them there; to destroy their flow state. Why is player A so restrained? He didn't want to win, he wanted to fight. Players motivations in games are often what makes the difference between a positive and a negative experience. So we nicely return to the beginning: if you're focused on winning, you're not going to have a good time and neither are the people playing with you.
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    > Fixating on outcomes will blind you to opportunities and invite needless suffering into your life I think having an outcome in mind is important as your north star and/or driving force, but I agree about fixating on it.
- hattmall 5y ago
  No, not really. I don't do all the things that I do to win, I do it because I actually like them. I like to build things, I don't care if its the best. I like to play basketball, I don't care if I win, we rarely keep score. I know people that always want to win or have the best or be the best at something, it frequently makes them intolerable to be around for others that don't share their passion.
- jolux 5y ago
  >doesn't everyone want to win the game they choose to play? This seems totally backwards. Winning is fun, but you don't choose a game because you like winning it, you choose it because you like playing it. All games can be won, but they all play differently.
  - Noos 5y ago
    no one plays a game to lose all the time, because eventually it stops being fun. If you enjoy a game, but every time you play it you get your ass handed to you, eventually you stop. And eventually over time the game ends up having only the people who meet the skill requirements to be able to have a decent win loss ratio. You can't be Charlie Brown all the time. Ironically Peanuts is probably one of the original takes on this whole debate; Charlie Brown actually faces a lot of despair over losing. The animated special where he travels to the spelling bee is one of the most painful things I have watched because its so realistic; in the end there really was no answer given to him.
    - Hammershaft 5y ago
      > no one plays a game to lose all the time, because eventually it stops being fun. If you enjoy a game, but every time you play it you get your ass handed to you, eventually you stop. This isn't true for everybody. There are genres of games dedicated towards extremely challenging mastery where a single win will require hundreds or thousands of losses. Plenty of roguelikes and roguelites like Spelunky and Caves of Qud fall in this category.
      - Noos 5y ago
        and those games quickly stop being fun if you can't secure a win. This is why pure rogue games have given way to roguelikes designed to have meta progression to make it easier to eventually win, or see yourself making progress. And yes, you stop even those games; eventually you hit a plateau where you see enough and dont advance in skill enough to shelve the game for something much better.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  I think I recall a comment from Art Spiegelman about his father who was a Holocaust survivor - something to the effect of, if surviving was winning, did that mean dying was losing? Another case in point is Bruno Bettelheim - if you read his Wikipedia page, does he come off as a winner or a loser? He seemed very accomplished at one point in time. The article seems to indicate peoples' views of him changed after his death - that he was basically a fraud and an abuser, and did even more harm through the influence of his psychological theories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bettelheim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bettelheim
- solipsism 5y ago
  What? The discussion was about winning with respect to others. You've morphed it and defined winning as achieving one's goals. Yes, indeed everyone wants to achieve their goals. That's vacuous and tautological, and no one was talking about that.
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    They can be one in the same. > Yes, indeed everyone wants to achieve their goals. That's vacuous and tautological, and no one was talking about that My point is that choosing your goals is important. You might achieve your goals and then realize that you didn't even care about achieving them in the first place. The "winning with respect to others" seems like a detail to me. It doesn't matter if it's winning with respect to others or yourself, as long as you understand what you're doing and are happy with it and the possible outcomes. If someone wants to grind away to build a billion dollar company then so be it, as long as they understand what that means.
- pcl 5y ago
  This is one of the reasons I love to ski. Sometimes, when the conditions are just right and my legs are in good shape and my mind is in the right place, I have one of those amazing ski runs that is just perfection. And it’s great. But other times, I also have fun. And I don’t end up with a score telling me how I did on each turn or anything like that. I log most of my trips on Strava, mostly as a way to stay in touch with friends around the world, but intentionally avoid the run-counting and speed-tracking gizmos, to help preserve this “did I enjoy myself or not?” metric. Relatedly, I’ve intentionally slowed down when skiing on lift access. The ride down is more fun than the ride up, ans the lift is a fixed cost. So I get a better ratio of enjoyment by turning more, and thus sitting on the lift less.
- watwut 5y ago
  > Let me rephrase: doesn't everyone want to win the game they choose to play? If you don't then maybe you picked the wrong game. If you choose to strive for a fulfilling relationship, and you succeed in achieving that then yes, you've won. I find the combination of talking about "winning" and "game" in a sense of "having relationships" completely forced and odd. Those two really dont mix well. In the context of personal relationship, association with game and winning is typically related to toxic relationships.
AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
Winners send rovers to Mars. Winners create software installed on every other computer on the planet. Winners lead by example. And for what it's worth, having a fulfilling relationship takes a bit of an effort too.
- minblaster 5y ago
  Losers sit in patent offices dreaming of the theories that gets rovers to mars, or the universal model of computation that allowed computers to exist. People told they must be Bigly Winners become reality-star presidents and certainly set an example. Thinking a desire to win is necessary to exert effort is intriguing.

ZephyrBlu 5y ago

Let me rephrase: doesn't everyone want to win the game they choose to play? If you don't then maybe you picked the wrong game. If you choose to strive for a fulfilling relationship, and you succeed in achieving that then yes, you've won. I only use the analogy of life as a game because it resonates with me. There are other ways to phrase what I'm saying.

stavros_ 5y ago
I choose to play fighting games, and I get my current fix from Dark Souls - an asymmetric fighting game. I enjoy winning, and I structure my play around intentional practice so that I can improve. But I don't want to win. This is an important nuance. Do you know what winning means? It means the game is over. It means there's no more challenge, no more adversary. It means boredom and purposelessness. Rather than winning, what I want is to fight. Focusing on the outcome of the fight is missing the forest for the trees - the fun is in the conflict, in the struggle with your opponent(s), in the instinctive collaboration with your occassional teammate. In the glory of the defeat, as well as victory. Unless you've got firsthand experience of this, you won't believe how wonderful it feels to get your ass handed to you by a truly superior player. To put the gaming analogy aside, life will always have its ups and downs. Life will always take you somewhere unexpected. Fixating on outcomes will blind you to opportunities and invite needless suffering into your life.
- biren34 5y ago
  In video games--and life--the only rewards for success are a transient celebration and a harder level.
- Noos 5y ago
  It really doesn't feel wonderful in fighting games. A superior player can easily trap you in a corner and take your life down to half or more with a single combo string. It's like playing chess against someone entirely more skilled; everything you try to do gets responded to at a level far above you. There really isn't any "wonderful" about it; you could end up watching a video and getting the same result, for all you could do in the match. There is no "glory" in this. A lot of the "play to improve" mindset is a result of needing to make a stupid level of effort to win games, with players going on long loss series due to low population and over-skilled players in the brackets they are in. This is why the fighting game genre struggles to get new players in the game at all-you have to work so much to get to where the fun is or to feel good about your efforts.
  - stavros_ 5y ago
    So game and metagame are important here. Overall, I agree with your point. This is the reason I don't play those games, or in those ultra-competitive brackets. I don't think we're necessarily contradicting eachother. I choose to play fighting games for the fight, rather than the victory, and thus tailor my choices within that genre to suit me. To offer a couple of 'parallel' examples to your own: Player A is at a significantly higher level than player B, and 'stifles' player B through consistent reads and conditioning. Nothing player B tries works, everything player B does seems to play exactly into player As hands. This is almost a restatement of your example, except it was a highly rewarding experience for me. In the language of cognitive psychology, it brought about a powerful flow state. The two key differences: 1.) that the skill imbalance was not too great - just great enough - and 2.) that the nature of the game's design and the players' choices in tactics/playstyles ommitted the more obnoxious elements of combat. My second parallel example is simply my first, reversed: I am player A, and my opponent is player B. Everything plays out the same. Interesting, that. Because implicit in player A's skill is that they are in control of the fight - they can, usually, make things fairly unpleasant and dirty for the opponent. It doesn't take much to push someone past the mental edge, to knock them off balance and keep them there; to destroy their flow state. Why is player A so restrained? He didn't want to win, he wanted to fight. Players motivations in games are often what makes the difference between a positive and a negative experience. So we nicely return to the beginning: if you're focused on winning, you're not going to have a good time and neither are the people playing with you.
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  > Fixating on outcomes will blind you to opportunities and invite needless suffering into your life I think having an outcome in mind is important as your north star and/or driving force, but I agree about fixating on it.
hattmall 5y ago
No, not really. I don't do all the things that I do to win, I do it because I actually like them. I like to build things, I don't care if its the best. I like to play basketball, I don't care if I win, we rarely keep score. I know people that always want to win or have the best or be the best at something, it frequently makes them intolerable to be around for others that don't share their passion.
jolux 5y ago
>doesn't everyone want to win the game they choose to play? This seems totally backwards. Winning is fun, but you don't choose a game because you like winning it, you choose it because you like playing it. All games can be won, but they all play differently.
- Noos 5y ago
  no one plays a game to lose all the time, because eventually it stops being fun. If you enjoy a game, but every time you play it you get your ass handed to you, eventually you stop. And eventually over time the game ends up having only the people who meet the skill requirements to be able to have a decent win loss ratio. You can't be Charlie Brown all the time. Ironically Peanuts is probably one of the original takes on this whole debate; Charlie Brown actually faces a lot of despair over losing. The animated special where he travels to the spelling bee is one of the most painful things I have watched because its so realistic; in the end there really was no answer given to him.
  - Hammershaft 5y ago
    > no one plays a game to lose all the time, because eventually it stops being fun. If you enjoy a game, but every time you play it you get your ass handed to you, eventually you stop. This isn't true for everybody. There are genres of games dedicated towards extremely challenging mastery where a single win will require hundreds or thousands of losses. Plenty of roguelikes and roguelites like Spelunky and Caves of Qud fall in this category.
    - Noos 5y ago
      and those games quickly stop being fun if you can't secure a win. This is why pure rogue games have given way to roguelikes designed to have meta progression to make it easier to eventually win, or see yourself making progress. And yes, you stop even those games; eventually you hit a plateau where you see enough and dont advance in skill enough to shelve the game for something much better.
perl4ever 5y ago
I think I recall a comment from Art Spiegelman about his father who was a Holocaust survivor - something to the effect of, if surviving was winning, did that mean dying was losing? Another case in point is Bruno Bettelheim - if you read his Wikipedia page, does he come off as a winner or a loser? He seemed very accomplished at one point in time. The article seems to indicate peoples' views of him changed after his death - that he was basically a fraud and an abuser, and did even more harm through the influence of his psychological theories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bettelheim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bettelheim
solipsism 5y ago
What? The discussion was about winning with respect to others. You've morphed it and defined winning as achieving one's goals. Yes, indeed everyone wants to achieve their goals. That's vacuous and tautological, and no one was talking about that.
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  They can be one in the same. > Yes, indeed everyone wants to achieve their goals. That's vacuous and tautological, and no one was talking about that My point is that choosing your goals is important. You might achieve your goals and then realize that you didn't even care about achieving them in the first place. The "winning with respect to others" seems like a detail to me. It doesn't matter if it's winning with respect to others or yourself, as long as you understand what you're doing and are happy with it and the possible outcomes. If someone wants to grind away to build a billion dollar company then so be it, as long as they understand what that means.
pcl 5y ago
This is one of the reasons I love to ski. Sometimes, when the conditions are just right and my legs are in good shape and my mind is in the right place, I have one of those amazing ski runs that is just perfection. And it’s great. But other times, I also have fun. And I don’t end up with a score telling me how I did on each turn or anything like that. I log most of my trips on Strava, mostly as a way to stay in touch with friends around the world, but intentionally avoid the run-counting and speed-tracking gizmos, to help preserve this “did I enjoy myself or not?” metric. Relatedly, I’ve intentionally slowed down when skiing on lift access. The ride down is more fun than the ride up, ans the lift is a fixed cost. So I get a better ratio of enjoyment by turning more, and thus sitting on the lift less.
watwut 5y ago
> Let me rephrase: doesn't everyone want to win the game they choose to play? If you don't then maybe you picked the wrong game. If you choose to strive for a fulfilling relationship, and you succeed in achieving that then yes, you've won. I find the combination of talking about "winning" and "game" in a sense of "having relationships" completely forced and odd. Those two really dont mix well. In the context of personal relationship, association with game and winning is typically related to toxic relationships.

AlexTWithBeard 5y ago

Winners send rovers to Mars. Winners create software installed on every other computer on the planet. Winners lead by example. And for what it's worth, having a fulfilling relationship takes a bit of an effort too.

minblaster 5y ago
Losers sit in patent offices dreaming of the theories that gets rovers to mars, or the universal model of computation that allowed computers to exist. People told they must be Bigly Winners become reality-star presidents and certainly set an example. Thinking a desire to win is necessary to exert effort is intriguing.