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That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines. I'm not sure why you're trying t

That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts: https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-hydrogen-embrittlement#:~:text=Corrosion%20in%20environments%20containing%20hydrogen%20sulphide%20can%20cause%20hydrogen%20absorption%20and%20cracking.&text=On%20this%20basis%2C%20ferritic%20steel,nickel%20alloys%20and%20aluminium%20alloys https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-....

pfdietz 5y ago
> That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines. So, when you said hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metal it comes into contact with, that didn't include the metal that the chemical industry makes their equipment from? So, let's just put a "this is chemical industry" signs on our hydrogen storage plants, and presto! Magically protected! Note that one of the things the chemical industry does with hydrogen-rich gases is burn them in combustion turbines, just like in a proposed hydrogen energy storage facility. Turbines for burning hydrogen have been available for decades. See, for example, what General Electric says: https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled-gas-turbines https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled... "Our turbines have nearly 30 years of experience operating on a variety of fuels that contain hydrogen, totaling over 6 million operating hours as hydrogen-fueled turbines using concentrations ranging from 5% to 95% (by volume)." Off. The. Shelf. > I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts: https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is- https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-.... I'm not sure why you're presenting a link that doesn't back up the claim you made.
- Manfredo_1 5y ago
  > So, when you said hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metal it comes into contact with, that didn't include the metal that the chemical industry makes their equipment from? So, let's just put a "this is chemical industry" signs on our hydrogen storage plants, and presto! Magically protected! I'd say you're being deliberately ignorant here, but I'm really not so sure. A gas turbine spins rapidly, putting huge stresses on the blades. They also operate at extremely high temperatures. And from your link: > The use of hydrogen as a gas turbine fuel has been demonstrated commercially, but there are differences between natural gas and hydrogen that must be taken into account to properly and safely use hydrogen in a gas turbine. In addition to differences in the combustion properties of these fuels, the impact to all gas turbine systems as well as the overall balance of plant, must be considered. In a power plant with one or more hydrogen-fueled turbines, changes may be needed to the fuel accessories, bottoming cycle components, and plant safety systems. GE’s broad field experience enables our engineers to understand the impact of using hydrogen as a gas turbine fuel. Hmm, maybe not so simple. And when we look at what's actually being deployed, it's not 100% hydrogen it's a mixture that's mostly natural gas with only a small portion of hydrogen: https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/gas-turbines-hydrogen-us/ https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/gas-turbines-hydro... > The new gas turbines will be commercially guaranteed capable of using a mix of 30% hydrogen and 70% natural gas fuel. Between 2025 and 2045, the hydrogen capability will be systematically increased to 100% renewable hydrogen. These turbines still mostly burn natural gas. GE says it'll get there eventually, possibly over the course of 3 decades.
  - pfdietz 5y ago
    Your grumbling and desperate denial doesn't change that turbines burning hydrogen are old hat. This is not something that any reasonable person would think won't work. None of the issues discussed there are showstoppers. They are things that should be, and have been, tweaked.
    - dang 5y ago
      You broke the site guidelines more than once in this thread. I'm not going to ban you like the other users who were so outrageously abusive, but this is still seriously not ok and we've had to warn you about it before. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - Hypx 5y ago
    > I'd say you're being deliberately ignorant here, but I'm really not so sure. A gas turbine spins rapidly, putting huge stresses on the blades. They also operate at extremely high temperatures. Seriously, your projection is out of control here. A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen gas turbines.
    - Manfredo_1 5y ago
      > A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen gas turbines. Did you misread that comment? The point was that hydrogen's application in the chemical industry don't involve turbine blades spinning at extreme speeds at high temperatures. Yes, the principle of combusting a gas, driving a turbine with the expanding gas, and using that turbine to drive a compressor is the same. That doesn't mean you can just feed a gasoline powered turbine hydrogen and be done with it. The turbines that can run hydrogen today can only run a small portion of it. https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/12/08/is-the-time-now-ripe-for-planes-to-run-on-hydrogen https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/12/08/... > The challenges of using hydrogen go beyond body shape, though. Redesigning a turbine engine to run on the stuff will be a multi-billion-dollar endeavour. Hydrogen burns faster than kerosene, and also burns hotter. That means materials exposed to its combustion experience greater stresses. It also risks increasing the pollution generated in the form of oxides of nitrogen, which would partially negate the environmental benefits of burning hydrogen. And it would be useful as well to arrange matters so that some of the energy used to compress or liquefy the hydrogen for storage could be recovered and put to work. The Soviets built a plane that flew on hydrogen, but it only completed 100 flights. And only part of those were with hydrogen, the rest were with natural gas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155
Hypx 5y ago
Are you familiar with fuel gases? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manufactured_fuel_gases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manufactured_fuel_g... Burning hydrogen gas (blended with other gases) for heat or power has been around for a long time. > I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts You're projecting here.
- Manfredo_1 5y ago
  That link you provided doesn't encompass gas turbines. Gas turbines capable of burning hydrogen do exist, but only at smaller concentrations, 70% methane and 30% hydrogen or less.
  - Hypx 5y ago
    In addition to what I said in the other post regarding gas turbines, you also don't need a gas turbine to generate power. As long as you can boil water the rest follows logically. Honestly, you should learn some thermodynamics and chemistry before accusing others of being ignorant.
    - Manfredo_1 5y ago
      Right, but then we're not talking about combined-cycle gas turbines to convert hydrogen back into electricity. If we're going to boil water than that's much less efficient than the ~66% efficiency we get out of combined cycle gas turbines. Also, in case you weren't aware a combined cycle turbine also involves boiling water and spinning a turbine. The reason why they're so efficient is because energy is extracted both from the gas turbine (basically a jet engine) and a steam turbine driven by the heat from the exhaust from the gas turbine. >Honestly, you should learn some thermodynamics and chemistry before accusing others of being ignorant. Hydrogen embrittlement is a real thing, don't just go hand-waving it away: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f12/hpwgw_embrittlementsteels_sofronis.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f12/hpwgw_em... What about thermodynamics am I missing?
      - 5y ago
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599307 because this seems to be the point at which this thread started to become a hellish flamewar. I've pretty much seen it all here and even I was shocked.

pfdietz 5y ago

> That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines. So, when you said hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metal it comes into contact with, that didn't include the metal that the chemical industry makes their equipment from? So, let's just put a "this is chemical industry" signs on our hydrogen storage plants, and presto! Magically protected! Note that one of the things the chemical industry does with hydrogen-rich gases is burn them in combustion turbines, just like in a proposed hydrogen energy storage facility. Turbines for burning hydrogen have been available for decades. See, for example, what General Electric says: https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled-gas-turbines https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled... "Our turbines have nearly 30 years of experience operating on a variety of fuels that contain hydrogen, totaling over 6 million operating hours as hydrogen-fueled turbines using concentrations ranging from 5% to 95% (by volume)." Off. The. Shelf. > I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts: https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is- https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-.... I'm not sure why you're presenting a link that doesn't back up the claim you made.

Manfredo_1 5y ago
> So, when you said hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metal it comes into contact with, that didn't include the metal that the chemical industry makes their equipment from? So, let's just put a "this is chemical industry" signs on our hydrogen storage plants, and presto! Magically protected! I'd say you're being deliberately ignorant here, but I'm really not so sure. A gas turbine spins rapidly, putting huge stresses on the blades. They also operate at extremely high temperatures. And from your link: > The use of hydrogen as a gas turbine fuel has been demonstrated commercially, but there are differences between natural gas and hydrogen that must be taken into account to properly and safely use hydrogen in a gas turbine. In addition to differences in the combustion properties of these fuels, the impact to all gas turbine systems as well as the overall balance of plant, must be considered. In a power plant with one or more hydrogen-fueled turbines, changes may be needed to the fuel accessories, bottoming cycle components, and plant safety systems. GE’s broad field experience enables our engineers to understand the impact of using hydrogen as a gas turbine fuel. Hmm, maybe not so simple. And when we look at what's actually being deployed, it's not 100% hydrogen it's a mixture that's mostly natural gas with only a small portion of hydrogen: https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/gas-turbines-hydrogen-us/ https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/gas-turbines-hydro... > The new gas turbines will be commercially guaranteed capable of using a mix of 30% hydrogen and 70% natural gas fuel. Between 2025 and 2045, the hydrogen capability will be systematically increased to 100% renewable hydrogen. These turbines still mostly burn natural gas. GE says it'll get there eventually, possibly over the course of 3 decades.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  Your grumbling and desperate denial doesn't change that turbines burning hydrogen are old hat. This is not something that any reasonable person would think won't work. None of the issues discussed there are showstoppers. They are things that should be, and have been, tweaked.
  - dang 5y ago
    You broke the site guidelines more than once in this thread. I'm not going to ban you like the other users who were so outrageously abusive, but this is still seriously not ok and we've had to warn you about it before. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- Hypx 5y ago
  > I'd say you're being deliberately ignorant here, but I'm really not so sure. A gas turbine spins rapidly, putting huge stresses on the blades. They also operate at extremely high temperatures. Seriously, your projection is out of control here. A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen gas turbines.
  - Manfredo_1 5y ago
    > A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen gas turbines. Did you misread that comment? The point was that hydrogen's application in the chemical industry don't involve turbine blades spinning at extreme speeds at high temperatures. Yes, the principle of combusting a gas, driving a turbine with the expanding gas, and using that turbine to drive a compressor is the same. That doesn't mean you can just feed a gasoline powered turbine hydrogen and be done with it. The turbines that can run hydrogen today can only run a small portion of it. https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/12/08/is-the-time-now-ripe-for-planes-to-run-on-hydrogen https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/12/08/... > The challenges of using hydrogen go beyond body shape, though. Redesigning a turbine engine to run on the stuff will be a multi-billion-dollar endeavour. Hydrogen burns faster than kerosene, and also burns hotter. That means materials exposed to its combustion experience greater stresses. It also risks increasing the pollution generated in the form of oxides of nitrogen, which would partially negate the environmental benefits of burning hydrogen. And it would be useful as well to arrange matters so that some of the energy used to compress or liquefy the hydrogen for storage could be recovered and put to work. The Soviets built a plane that flew on hydrogen, but it only completed 100 flights. And only part of those were with hydrogen, the rest were with natural gas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155

Hypx 5y ago

Are you familiar with fuel gases? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manufactured_fuel_gases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manufactured_fuel_g... Burning hydrogen gas (blended with other gases) for heat or power has been around for a long time. > I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts You're projecting here.

Manfredo_1 5y ago
That link you provided doesn't encompass gas turbines. Gas turbines capable of burning hydrogen do exist, but only at smaller concentrations, 70% methane and 30% hydrogen or less.
- Hypx 5y ago
  In addition to what I said in the other post regarding gas turbines, you also don't need a gas turbine to generate power. As long as you can boil water the rest follows logically. Honestly, you should learn some thermodynamics and chemistry before accusing others of being ignorant.
  - Manfredo_1 5y ago
    Right, but then we're not talking about combined-cycle gas turbines to convert hydrogen back into electricity. If we're going to boil water than that's much less efficient than the ~66% efficiency we get out of combined cycle gas turbines. Also, in case you weren't aware a combined cycle turbine also involves boiling water and spinning a turbine. The reason why they're so efficient is because energy is extracted both from the gas turbine (basically a jet engine) and a steam turbine driven by the heat from the exhaust from the gas turbine. >Honestly, you should learn some thermodynamics and chemistry before accusing others of being ignorant. Hydrogen embrittlement is a real thing, don't just go hand-waving it away: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f12/hpwgw_embrittlementsteels_sofronis.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f12/hpwgw_em... What about thermodynamics am I missing?
    - 5y ago

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599307 because this seems to be the point at which this thread started to become a hellish flamewar. I've pretty much seen it all here and even I was shocked.