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I am curious as to where did you find Andy mentioning anything about a new kind of ideological purity? Or is this the typical 'SJW' scarecrow to prevent any kin

I am curious as to where did you find Andy mentioning anything about a new kind of ideological purity? Or is this the typical 'SJW' scarecrow to prevent any kind of meaningful change whatsoever? What if, I don't know, we update that free software ethos and acknowledge its dark history of discrimination and abuse?

bloaf 5y ago
> Of course I would rather that the FSF wouldn't allow itself to be seen as an essentially misogynist organization. So clean house, FSF!
- lastgeniusua 5y ago
  Is not continuing to employ abusers what you are questioning here and trying to portray as the new gender issue ideology? Free software and misogyny aren't the same in the way you might think they are, the former can exist without the latter.
  - bloaf 5y ago
    You asked "where did you find Andy mentioning anything about a new kind of ideological purity?" I answered with a line where he specifically demands the FSF get rid of people "perceived" as misogynist. I.e. apply a modern gender issue ideological purity test. Now you have claimed this is a defense of abusers. That is an equivocation, an intellectually dishonest rhetorical tactic. The discussion up to this point was about perceptions of misogyny, which is not the same thing as abuse.
- hospadar 5y ago
  Yeah OP certainly is pushing an ideological agenda, but although "don't be misogynist" is certainly an ideology, it does seem pretty related to the FSF being an effective force in the modern world. If women don't participate or contribute, the FSF _won't_ be effective (or at least, much less effective than it could be). From the FSF website: "The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide mission to promote computer user freedom. We defend the rights of all software users." I don't see "make sure RMS feels important and in charge" anywhere in the mission, but I do see "the rights of all software users" in there. Maybe the FSF hasn't noticed women using computers yet?
  - bloaf 5y ago
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. When I see a slogan like "don't be seen as misogynist" my brain fills in "don't be seen [by whom?] as misogynist." Is Stallman actually impeding the FSF's mission, or just pissing off a vocal silicon valley minority who are already on board with the mission?
encryptluks2 5y ago
What abuse do you allege Stallman participated in specifically?
bitwize 5y ago
We're dealing with a man who thinks it's fascist to concern yourself with freedom of speech: https://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-about-hiring-is-avoiding-the-fash https://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thi... And who has advocated hiring only people who give "correct" answers to an ideological purity test: http://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-question http://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-... Hint: The correct answer is structural misogyny. Any accounting for the fact that less than 50% of programmers are women, that does not attribute 100% of the imbalance to structural misogyny, would presumably disqualify you from the role. So there's your Unicru answer key, in case you run into this sort of question in the wild. Basically, Andy Wingo has certain political positions, and if yours differ, you are racist, misogynist, or otherwise "fash" and toxic to the organization, therefore should not be hired or recognized as a contributor. I happen to disagree strongly with Wingo on a number of counts -- which is why I'm glad he's around to hack on Guile! But I don't think his advice on who should be included or excluded should be taken by the FSF or other free software organizations.

bloaf 5y ago

> Of course I would rather that the FSF wouldn't allow itself to be seen as an essentially misogynist organization. So clean house, FSF!

lastgeniusua 5y ago
Is not continuing to employ abusers what you are questioning here and trying to portray as the new gender issue ideology? Free software and misogyny aren't the same in the way you might think they are, the former can exist without the latter.
- bloaf 5y ago
  You asked "where did you find Andy mentioning anything about a new kind of ideological purity?" I answered with a line where he specifically demands the FSF get rid of people "perceived" as misogynist. I.e. apply a modern gender issue ideological purity test. Now you have claimed this is a defense of abusers. That is an equivocation, an intellectually dishonest rhetorical tactic. The discussion up to this point was about perceptions of misogyny, which is not the same thing as abuse.
hospadar 5y ago
Yeah OP certainly is pushing an ideological agenda, but although "don't be misogynist" is certainly an ideology, it does seem pretty related to the FSF being an effective force in the modern world. If women don't participate or contribute, the FSF _won't_ be effective (or at least, much less effective than it could be). From the FSF website: "The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide mission to promote computer user freedom. We defend the rights of all software users." I don't see "make sure RMS feels important and in charge" anywhere in the mission, but I do see "the rights of all software users" in there. Maybe the FSF hasn't noticed women using computers yet?
- bloaf 5y ago
  I think you've hit the nail on the head. When I see a slogan like "don't be seen as misogynist" my brain fills in "don't be seen [by whom?] as misogynist." Is Stallman actually impeding the FSF's mission, or just pissing off a vocal silicon valley minority who are already on board with the mission?

encryptluks2 5y ago

What abuse do you allege Stallman participated in specifically?

bitwize 5y ago

We're dealing with a man who thinks it's fascist to concern yourself with freedom of speech: https://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-about-hiring-is-avoiding-the-fash https://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thi... And who has advocated hiring only people who give "correct" answers to an ideological purity test: http://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-question http://www.wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-... Hint: The correct answer is structural misogyny. Any accounting for the fact that less than 50% of programmers are women, that does not attribute 100% of the imbalance to structural misogyny, would presumably disqualify you from the role. So there's your Unicru answer key, in case you run into this sort of question in the wild. Basically, Andy Wingo has certain political positions, and if yours differ, you are racist, misogynist, or otherwise "fash" and toxic to the organization, therefore should not be hired or recognized as a contributor. I happen to disagree strongly with Wingo on a number of counts -- which is why I'm glad he's around to hack on Guile! But I don't think his advice on who should be included or excluded should be taken by the FSF or other free software organizations.