6 ms·

FU money implies never needing to work again... ...which is exactly what UBI intends.

ekianjo 6y ago
FU money means you have more than what you need. Relying on UBI means you become slave to a system that does not depend on you (external) for your survival, which is the opposite of actually having FU money. It's a big old trap.
- EGreg 6y ago
  What you need is a function of what you have come to expect. Electricity. Wifi. Fast internet. Air conditioning. Running water. Access to nutritious food and good medicine. Some of those are needs, others are not. The ones which are directly maintaining you in good health are needs. Don't sacrifice your needs (8 hours of sleep a day, for example) for your wants (a shiny new iPhone or bigger apartment) over the years. It's not black and white. As we give more and more UBI, we rebalance the power dynamic between employers and employees. It starts to obviate the need for minimum wage laws and unions, because people can start to ask for 30 hour work weeks, time off to raise their own kids, study a new career, contribute to science and open source software and so on. They'll be able to take more entrepreneurial risks, too. A society with UBI would have a lot more people contributing to gift economies.
nsxwolf 6y ago
The most serious proposal for UBI in the United States (serious in that people talked about it for a few minutes) was from Andrew Yang, who proposed $1000 a month for all adults. It would be difficult for most people to live on that without getting a lot of other free stuff to go with it.
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  Isn't that like at least 3.8 trillion per year?
  - bryanlarsen 6y ago
    Only on paper. Taxes on the average income would increase by a compensating $1000/month making it essentially invisible to them and balanced in the government books. It's only on the rich and the poor where the effects would be noticeable. In practice, it would have a similar impact on the books as a program that gave $1000/month to just the poor people. Giving the money to everybody and then taxing it back from most makes it seem much larger but makes it a wash in practice.
    - sumtechguy 6y ago
      The fed currently takes in about 3.8 in taxes total spends about 4.2 (minus giant things being thrown about currently). About 2.3 is towards 'entitlement programs'. This 'UBI' I would assume would take over the 2.3? Leaving a gap of about 1.5 trillion to make it to the 1000 a month, minus what is given back to those who 'wash'. Plus whatever other deficit is going on?
      - t0mbstone 6y ago
        The key here is the phrase, "currently takes in". There is a huge amount of taxes that the ultra-wealthy are currently NOT paying. In fact, the vast majority of income taxes are actually paid by the lower and middle classes, because once you hit a certain level of income you have enough money to pay professionals to help you shelter your money and avoid taxes. For example, Warren Buffet only paid $1.8 million in taxes in 2015, even though his wealth was worth 72 billion at the time. His wealth literally grew 12 billion that year, and he only paid $1.8 million in taxes. That means he paid only 0.015% in taxes, in terms of wealth growth vs income taxes paid. Meanwhile, someone earning $100K would have paid around 20% of their income...
        Erwin 6y ago
        Looking at IRS data, top 1% tax payers in US in 2018 paid 38.5% of the federal income taxes. Bottom 90% paid 28.6%. So I don't think they're as good as hiding their money in the Cayman Islands as you think they are: https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/ https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/ In comparison top 10% of the Danish tax payers paid just 31.3% of the total income tax, despite Denmark having rather high taxation (the OECD method that puts it as #1 is controversial, but I pay e.g. a 42% marginal tax rate on any capital gains).
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  $1000/mo is $6.25/hr at 40 hours per week. Minimum wage is only $1/hr more[0] and people are expected to live on that. $6.25/hr with no 40hr time commitment is a pretty sweet deal. [0] US federal minimum wage

FU money means you have more than what you need. Relying on UBI means you become slave to a system that does not depend on you (external) for your survival, which is the opposite of actually having FU money. It's a big old trap.

EGreg 6y ago
What you need is a function of what you have come to expect. Electricity. Wifi. Fast internet. Air conditioning. Running water. Access to nutritious food and good medicine. Some of those are needs, others are not. The ones which are directly maintaining you in good health are needs. Don't sacrifice your needs (8 hours of sleep a day, for example) for your wants (a shiny new iPhone or bigger apartment) over the years. It's not black and white. As we give more and more UBI, we rebalance the power dynamic between employers and employees. It starts to obviate the need for minimum wage laws and unions, because people can start to ask for 30 hour work weeks, time off to raise their own kids, study a new career, contribute to science and open source software and so on. They'll be able to take more entrepreneurial risks, too. A society with UBI would have a lot more people contributing to gift economies.

nsxwolf 6y ago

The most serious proposal for UBI in the United States (serious in that people talked about it for a few minutes) was from Andrew Yang, who proposed $1000 a month for all adults. It would be difficult for most people to live on that without getting a lot of other free stuff to go with it.

sumtechguy 6y ago
Isn't that like at least 3.8 trillion per year?
- bryanlarsen 6y ago
  Only on paper. Taxes on the average income would increase by a compensating $1000/month making it essentially invisible to them and balanced in the government books. It's only on the rich and the poor where the effects would be noticeable. In practice, it would have a similar impact on the books as a program that gave $1000/month to just the poor people. Giving the money to everybody and then taxing it back from most makes it seem much larger but makes it a wash in practice.
  - sumtechguy 6y ago
    The fed currently takes in about 3.8 in taxes total spends about 4.2 (minus giant things being thrown about currently). About 2.3 is towards 'entitlement programs'. This 'UBI' I would assume would take over the 2.3? Leaving a gap of about 1.5 trillion to make it to the 1000 a month, minus what is given back to those who 'wash'. Plus whatever other deficit is going on?
    - t0mbstone 6y ago
      The key here is the phrase, "currently takes in". There is a huge amount of taxes that the ultra-wealthy are currently NOT paying. In fact, the vast majority of income taxes are actually paid by the lower and middle classes, because once you hit a certain level of income you have enough money to pay professionals to help you shelter your money and avoid taxes. For example, Warren Buffet only paid $1.8 million in taxes in 2015, even though his wealth was worth 72 billion at the time. His wealth literally grew 12 billion that year, and he only paid $1.8 million in taxes. That means he paid only 0.015% in taxes, in terms of wealth growth vs income taxes paid. Meanwhile, someone earning $100K would have paid around 20% of their income...
      - Erwin 6y ago
        Looking at IRS data, top 1% tax payers in US in 2018 paid 38.5% of the federal income taxes. Bottom 90% paid 28.6%. So I don't think they're as good as hiding their money in the Cayman Islands as you think they are: https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/ https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/ In comparison top 10% of the Danish tax payers paid just 31.3% of the total income tax, despite Denmark having rather high taxation (the OECD method that puts it as #1 is controversial, but I pay e.g. a 42% marginal tax rate on any capital gains).
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
$1000/mo is $6.25/hr at 40 hours per week. Minimum wage is only $1/hr more[0] and people are expected to live on that. $6.25/hr with no 40hr time commitment is a pretty sweet deal. [0] US federal minimum wage