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It is another level. So many people missed the bus and are just salty or frustrated. I am so surprised that this happened given all of us are in tech (and have

It is another level. So many people missed the bus and are just salty or frustrated. I am so surprised that this happened given all of us are in tech (and have good income and awareness of blockchain) and it would have made sense to invest just a bit in all these years to see where that takes us. Now it is all about how Bitcoin is a ponzi, key reason for climate change and solves no issues whatsoever. Maybe all those things are correct (I don't know) but it sure was a good way to make a lot of money -- and most of the people here just missed it. And this hate is not new. Look at this well commented thread from 2015 when Bitcoin went down to $180 and HN is still filled with comments like that this is not surprising and they don't see it coming back from hereon: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8884838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8884838 We haven't learned anything? Have we?

8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
So yes this is exactly why I hate it so much. Not because I personally didn't get rich from it. But because we engineered a way to magnify the wealth of the people who need it least, at a huge environmental cost for no reason. It's like all of the worst tendencies of our society reduced down and maximized.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  Exactly the type of people I was referring to in my comment. Read the 2015 thread. You would find people who mirror you.
  - 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
    I mean I've had this opinion since 2010 we've always been here.
  - bostonsre 6y ago
    So what, you made money off of trading it like a commodity and that makes you correct how exactly? You just brush aside the opposing viewpoints without speaking to them or acknowledging that they have merit. You also don't think it's possible that you don't actually understand what is happening with bitcoin and you got lucky? You don't know what the end state is, no one does. Winning money at roulette doesn't make you a profit that saw into the future.
  - estaseuropano 6y ago
    This is a strangely offensive comment. You stated that all negative commenters are just bitter for having missed out. The other comment said "No, here are my legitimate reasons for not liking bitcoin". You respond claiming that that's just proof s/he is a h8t3r, see 2018 where similar arguments were already made. Have you considered that there are indeed legitimate reasons not to like bitcoin, like those outlined by the previous commenter? Or e.g. I think the detachment from the nation state is a dangerous element that will foster a race to the bottom on taxes, environmental standards, etc as capital gets even more mobile and untraceable than before. A small crowd gets the benefits and many many miss out with underfunded schools and healthcare...
- capableweb 6y ago
  > But because we engineered a way to magnify the wealth of the people who need it least I feel like this is an argument against money, not necessarily cryptocurrencies in general and even less against Bitcoin specifically. Yes, creating opportunities will lead to people who don't really need it taking advantage of those opportunities. But, it also means that people who really need opportunities can take those too, as it's a open network. So yes, richer gets richer while the poorer is getting poorer. At least cryptocurrencies are leveling the field a bit, so the the poor has a bigger chance out of poverty. As someone who used to be poor, I welcome the new War In the Status Quo.
korijn 6y ago
This life is not just about expanding our wealth.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  It is absolutely not - where did I say it was? But you do invest your money in stocks or bonds don't you? Why couldn't you have invested 1% of your capital in BTC in 2018? Just treat it as one of those investments which went well?
  - korijn 6y ago
    Why would I, for any other reason than to expand my wealth?
- rawtxapp 6y ago
  In our current capitalist economy, most people spend majority of their life just working and saving for their retirements.
  - dternyak 6y ago
    > In our current capitalist economy Hasn't this always been the case, for all of humanity's existence? "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat from it"
    - morlockabove 6y ago
      Everything bad is because of [buzzword that represents everything bad about the current social order]. Do lefties have a "not real capitalism" meme like the "not real communism" meme for righties?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - korijn 6y ago
endisneigh 6y ago
I don't understand - is your logic that frustration means you didn't make money? If you made money off bitcoin would the hate be more or less warranted? I'm confused.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  Logic being if you held bitcoin you would be incentivized to read more about it and learn vs. being ideologically opposed and dismissing it like what no-coinists here do.
  - endisneigh 6y ago
    I don't understand - the two things you are saying are not mutually exclusive. You could hold bitcoin, make money off bitcoin, understand bitcoin and still be ideologically opposed.
  - fwiwm2c 6y ago
    Yes you can. But those are the minority. People who are ideologically opposed typically don't invest in bitcoin - and over time become salty as they realize what they missed out on.
  - the_gastropod 6y ago
    Ah, yes! People with no financial interest are the ones with conflicts of interest! Better buy some Bitcoin to have a real rational take.
    - fwiwm2c 6y ago
      Read the follow up comments and don't jump to conclusions. I know you are biased but try to have an open mind.
seibelj 6y ago
There is a sizable portion of people on HN who understand the value proposition of blockchain and invested and / or work in the space. We just get downvoted and drowned out by a vocal group of toxic no-coiners who hate this tech with great passion. I think HN is a little more curious of the tech, especially with NFTs lately and artist interest. But overall still the worst place to talk intelligently about this stuff.
silentsea90 6y ago
Side note: I wish the ones who caught the bus could reveal how early they got on it. I play the wishful thinking game in my mind all the time. I have some but not enough, which I believe is the general sentiment everywhere.
- rawtxapp 6y ago
  You can look at the blockchain directly to see who holds what for how long. I doubt anybody who bought a significant amount early on would ever reveal themselves publicly.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  I got in 2017. Life changing experience.
phailhaus 6y ago
The fact that everyone is still talking about Bitcoin as a commodity that others have "missed out on" shows there's still something huge missing. Nobody is talking about using Bitcoin to pay for goods, it's all about price movements and making profits. It's the ultimate meme stock. But that's not what the dream of Bitcoin is, and as far as I can tell it's failing at what it was meant for.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  Just so sad when I read takes like this from uninformed people. Bitcoin is NOT about payments. Just stop saying that. Bitcoin is store of value. When you think about Bitcoin the closest analogy is gold. Sure it is more volatile but it is a 10yr old asset. If you look at the long term trend (past 10 yrs), your value only increased.
  - bostonsre 6y ago
    > bitcoin is not about payments It is called bit-coin, not bit-gold. The designers of bitcoin intended it to be used for commerce.
    - fwiwm2c 6y ago
      Haha - based on all your comments, you seem to the saltiest of the lot. Also, it doesn't matter what the founders intended. What matters is how it is being used.
      - dang 6y ago
        Please stop perpetuating this tedious flamewar. Crossing into personal attack is particularly not allowed. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: actually you've been breaking the site guidelines so shockingly and so frequently that I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
MrMan 6y ago
I understood bitcoin from the beginning when I was first exposed to it, and I chose not to mine it or buy any. I hate it. I am more forgiving of POS coins, but I am still waiting for a time when they are used to pay for things, not as a MLM scheme. I think equities are a better way, overall, to buy and hold.
Swenrekcah 6y ago
It is sticking your head in the sand to write off all the criticisim as coming from salty losers late to the game. In my opinion Bitcoin is the modern day tulip. It has no real value (note Bitcoin is not blockchain, which is a useful technology), uses tremendous amounts of real world resources and is in a massive bubble and will eventually burst leaving us all worse off. Sure, some will and have prospered, but there is net loss of value for society. This is all independent of whether one is peronally invested. I don't happen to own Bitcoin, but I do own shares of some companies that I actually want to see fail. But it is a sort of a hedge.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  Here comes the person giving the tulip analogy.
dybber 6y ago
What makes Bitcoin anything else than a Ponzi scheme?
StavrosK 6y ago
I agree that there's quite a bit of hate, but as an early cryptocurrency enthusiast, I've been turned around. I really hate how it's become a useless space full of speculation, all everyone seems to talk about is how to pump prices. I can't remember the last time I saw a story about a new payments processor, or an actually useful thing. It's all "price price price" these days.
- api 6y ago
  > all everyone seems to talk about is how to pump prices. To me the shark jumping moment was when Coinbase and many other "crypto banks" reworked their UI/UX around presenting your holdings as a "portfolio." When I log into my bank I don't see my "portfolio of USD." I see my account. I'd see USD in my "portfolio" if I had a Forex account, but then I'd be trading currencies not banking them to use as currencies. It's a pure admission that for the vast majority of its user base the sole purpose is just to play pump and dump games. The only group I see routinely using cryptocurrencies as actual currencies are online black market users and sellers, and they do so for an obvious reason that outweighs the downsides. Many of them have moved to Monero and Zcoin too since those actually have decent privacy. (Not foolproof, but decent.)
the_gastropod 6y ago
> So many people missed the bus and are just salty or frustrated This is such projection. I have 0 regrets about not buying into Bitcoin (or any other hyped up blockchain tech). It represents the absolute worst of capitalism, selfishness, and anti-intellectualism. I sleep soundly at night having had 0 involvement. Also perfectly happy in my decisions to avoid: buying a lottery ticket ever, joining any MLM in existence, working for a hedge fund, hoarding XBoxes to re-sell them, etc. > Now it is all about how Bitcoin is a ponzi, key reason for climate change and solves no issues whatsoever. Maybe all those things are correct (I don't know) but it sure was a good way to make a lot of money -- and most of the people here just missed it. Annnnnd exactly demonstrating what I'm referring to. "These criticisms might be fully correct. I don't know! But it sure was profitable!" What a disgusting way of looking at the world. > We haven't learned anything? Have we? Clearly not.
api 6y ago
Of course people around here are salty. The majority of HN users are people who are working hard trying to do useful work, while in cryptocurrency there are a bunch of people getting rich off scams or just HODLing a token. What makes it worse is that these people who just got lucky think they're changing the world and are a part of some kind of movement. Some are evangelical and almost self-righteous about it. Some sound like cult members. Just admit you won the lotto and stop perpetuating obvious nonsense. The thing I find most obnoxious is the sector of the Bitcoin cult that talks about how they're going to destroy the useless legacy financial industry... when what they are doing by getting rich off a value-less token is everything they hate about financial capitalism distilled into its purest form. Bitcoin is a reductio ad absurdum of financial capitalism, not a revolt against it. If it actually "took over" it would invert all financial incentives so that simply holding deflationary tokens became the safest path to profit, disincentivizing investment in any kind of productive work. Financial capitalism and Wall St. get a lot of hate around here too for the exact same reason. Edit: everything I hate about Bitcoin I also hate about much of conventional financial capitalism... but I don't hear very many Wall St. tycoons pretending they're changing the world or creating some kind of utopia. Many of them will flat out admit that they're purely mercenary. It's more honest.
tekproxy 6y ago
Great thing about Bitcoin is you don't need to argue. Don't even tell people you're into it. Just buy a little every week if you agree with the philosophy behind it.

8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago

So yes this is exactly why I hate it so much. Not because I personally didn't get rich from it. But because we engineered a way to magnify the wealth of the people who need it least, at a huge environmental cost for no reason. It's like all of the worst tendencies of our society reduced down and maximized.

fwiwm2c 6y ago
Exactly the type of people I was referring to in my comment. Read the 2015 thread. You would find people who mirror you.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  I mean I've had this opinion since 2010 we've always been here.
- bostonsre 6y ago
  So what, you made money off of trading it like a commodity and that makes you correct how exactly? You just brush aside the opposing viewpoints without speaking to them or acknowledging that they have merit. You also don't think it's possible that you don't actually understand what is happening with bitcoin and you got lucky? You don't know what the end state is, no one does. Winning money at roulette doesn't make you a profit that saw into the future.
- estaseuropano 6y ago
  This is a strangely offensive comment. You stated that all negative commenters are just bitter for having missed out. The other comment said "No, here are my legitimate reasons for not liking bitcoin". You respond claiming that that's just proof s/he is a h8t3r, see 2018 where similar arguments were already made. Have you considered that there are indeed legitimate reasons not to like bitcoin, like those outlined by the previous commenter? Or e.g. I think the detachment from the nation state is a dangerous element that will foster a race to the bottom on taxes, environmental standards, etc as capital gets even more mobile and untraceable than before. A small crowd gets the benefits and many many miss out with underfunded schools and healthcare...
capableweb 6y ago
> But because we engineered a way to magnify the wealth of the people who need it least I feel like this is an argument against money, not necessarily cryptocurrencies in general and even less against Bitcoin specifically. Yes, creating opportunities will lead to people who don't really need it taking advantage of those opportunities. But, it also means that people who really need opportunities can take those too, as it's a open network. So yes, richer gets richer while the poorer is getting poorer. At least cryptocurrencies are leveling the field a bit, so the the poor has a bigger chance out of poverty. As someone who used to be poor, I welcome the new War In the Status Quo.

korijn 6y ago

This life is not just about expanding our wealth.

fwiwm2c 6y ago
It is absolutely not - where did I say it was? But you do invest your money in stocks or bonds don't you? Why couldn't you have invested 1% of your capital in BTC in 2018? Just treat it as one of those investments which went well?
- korijn 6y ago
  Why would I, for any other reason than to expand my wealth?
rawtxapp 6y ago
In our current capitalist economy, most people spend majority of their life just working and saving for their retirements.
- dternyak 6y ago
  > In our current capitalist economy Hasn't this always been the case, for all of humanity's existence? "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat from it"
  - morlockabove 6y ago
    Everything bad is because of [buzzword that represents everything bad about the current social order]. Do lefties have a "not real capitalism" meme like the "not real communism" meme for righties?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- korijn 6y ago

endisneigh 6y ago

I don't understand - is your logic that frustration means you didn't make money? If you made money off bitcoin would the hate be more or less warranted? I'm confused.

fwiwm2c 6y ago
Logic being if you held bitcoin you would be incentivized to read more about it and learn vs. being ideologically opposed and dismissing it like what no-coinists here do.
- endisneigh 6y ago
  I don't understand - the two things you are saying are not mutually exclusive. You could hold bitcoin, make money off bitcoin, understand bitcoin and still be ideologically opposed.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  Yes you can. But those are the minority. People who are ideologically opposed typically don't invest in bitcoin - and over time become salty as they realize what they missed out on.
- the_gastropod 6y ago
  Ah, yes! People with no financial interest are the ones with conflicts of interest! Better buy some Bitcoin to have a real rational take.
  - fwiwm2c 6y ago
    Read the follow up comments and don't jump to conclusions. I know you are biased but try to have an open mind.

seibelj 6y ago

There is a sizable portion of people on HN who understand the value proposition of blockchain and invested and / or work in the space. We just get downvoted and drowned out by a vocal group of toxic no-coiners who hate this tech with great passion. I think HN is a little more curious of the tech, especially with NFTs lately and artist interest. But overall still the worst place to talk intelligently about this stuff.

silentsea90 6y ago

Side note: I wish the ones who caught the bus could reveal how early they got on it. I play the wishful thinking game in my mind all the time. I have some but not enough, which I believe is the general sentiment everywhere.

rawtxapp 6y ago
You can look at the blockchain directly to see who holds what for how long. I doubt anybody who bought a significant amount early on would ever reveal themselves publicly.
fwiwm2c 6y ago
I got in 2017. Life changing experience.

phailhaus 6y ago

The fact that everyone is still talking about Bitcoin as a commodity that others have "missed out on" shows there's still something huge missing. Nobody is talking about using Bitcoin to pay for goods, it's all about price movements and making profits. It's the ultimate meme stock. But that's not what the dream of Bitcoin is, and as far as I can tell it's failing at what it was meant for.

fwiwm2c 6y ago
Just so sad when I read takes like this from uninformed people. Bitcoin is NOT about payments. Just stop saying that. Bitcoin is store of value. When you think about Bitcoin the closest analogy is gold. Sure it is more volatile but it is a 10yr old asset. If you look at the long term trend (past 10 yrs), your value only increased.
- bostonsre 6y ago
  > bitcoin is not about payments It is called bit-coin, not bit-gold. The designers of bitcoin intended it to be used for commerce.
  - fwiwm2c 6y ago
    Haha - based on all your comments, you seem to the saltiest of the lot. Also, it doesn't matter what the founders intended. What matters is how it is being used.
    - dang 6y ago
      Please stop perpetuating this tedious flamewar. Crossing into personal attack is particularly not allowed. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: actually you've been breaking the site guidelines so shockingly and so frequently that I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

MrMan 6y ago

I understood bitcoin from the beginning when I was first exposed to it, and I chose not to mine it or buy any. I hate it. I am more forgiving of POS coins, but I am still waiting for a time when they are used to pay for things, not as a MLM scheme. I think equities are a better way, overall, to buy and hold.

Swenrekcah 6y ago

It is sticking your head in the sand to write off all the criticisim as coming from salty losers late to the game. In my opinion Bitcoin is the modern day tulip. It has no real value (note Bitcoin is not blockchain, which is a useful technology), uses tremendous amounts of real world resources and is in a massive bubble and will eventually burst leaving us all worse off. Sure, some will and have prospered, but there is net loss of value for society. This is all independent of whether one is peronally invested. I don't happen to own Bitcoin, but I do own shares of some companies that I actually want to see fail. But it is a sort of a hedge.

fwiwm2c 6y ago
Here comes the person giving the tulip analogy.

dybber 6y ago

What makes Bitcoin anything else than a Ponzi scheme?

StavrosK 6y ago

I agree that there's quite a bit of hate, but as an early cryptocurrency enthusiast, I've been turned around. I really hate how it's become a useless space full of speculation, all everyone seems to talk about is how to pump prices. I can't remember the last time I saw a story about a new payments processor, or an actually useful thing. It's all "price price price" these days.

api 6y ago
> all everyone seems to talk about is how to pump prices. To me the shark jumping moment was when Coinbase and many other "crypto banks" reworked their UI/UX around presenting your holdings as a "portfolio." When I log into my bank I don't see my "portfolio of USD." I see my account. I'd see USD in my "portfolio" if I had a Forex account, but then I'd be trading currencies not banking them to use as currencies. It's a pure admission that for the vast majority of its user base the sole purpose is just to play pump and dump games. The only group I see routinely using cryptocurrencies as actual currencies are online black market users and sellers, and they do so for an obvious reason that outweighs the downsides. Many of them have moved to Monero and Zcoin too since those actually have decent privacy. (Not foolproof, but decent.)

the_gastropod 6y ago

> So many people missed the bus and are just salty or frustrated This is such projection. I have 0 regrets about not buying into Bitcoin (or any other hyped up blockchain tech). It represents the absolute worst of capitalism, selfishness, and anti-intellectualism. I sleep soundly at night having had 0 involvement. Also perfectly happy in my decisions to avoid: buying a lottery ticket ever, joining any MLM in existence, working for a hedge fund, hoarding XBoxes to re-sell them, etc. > Now it is all about how Bitcoin is a ponzi, key reason for climate change and solves no issues whatsoever. Maybe all those things are correct (I don't know) but it sure was a good way to make a lot of money -- and most of the people here just missed it. Annnnnd exactly demonstrating what I'm referring to. "These criticisms might be fully correct. I don't know! But it sure was profitable!" What a disgusting way of looking at the world. > We haven't learned anything? Have we? Clearly not.

api 6y ago

Of course people around here are salty. The majority of HN users are people who are working hard trying to do useful work, while in cryptocurrency there are a bunch of people getting rich off scams or just HODLing a token. What makes it worse is that these people who just got lucky think they're changing the world and are a part of some kind of movement. Some are evangelical and almost self-righteous about it. Some sound like cult members. Just admit you won the lotto and stop perpetuating obvious nonsense. The thing I find most obnoxious is the sector of the Bitcoin cult that talks about how they're going to destroy the useless legacy financial industry... when what they are doing by getting rich off a value-less token is everything they hate about financial capitalism distilled into its purest form. Bitcoin is a reductio ad absurdum of financial capitalism, not a revolt against it. If it actually "took over" it would invert all financial incentives so that simply holding deflationary tokens became the safest path to profit, disincentivizing investment in any kind of productive work. Financial capitalism and Wall St. get a lot of hate around here too for the exact same reason. Edit: everything I hate about Bitcoin I also hate about much of conventional financial capitalism... but I don't hear very many Wall St. tycoons pretending they're changing the world or creating some kind of utopia. Many of them will flat out admit that they're purely mercenary. It's more honest.

tekproxy 6y ago

Great thing about Bitcoin is you don't need to argue. Don't even tell people you're into it. Just buy a little every week if you agree with the philosophy behind it.