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> It seems like anyone who makes a trade-in purchase with Apple Store using a credit card that may not be a valid payment method could be at risk. No, because

by _qulr 6y ago

> It seems like anyone who makes a trade-in purchase with Apple Store using a credit card that may not be a valid payment method could be at risk. No, because the main issue isn't the disputed payment, the main issue is that Apple shut down his other Apple services because of non-payment. This presumably wouldn't happen if the charge was on a non-Apple card.

komocode 6y ago
> the main issue is that Apple shut down his other Apple services because of non-payment. This presumably wouldn't happen if the charge was on a non-Apple card. Not entirely true. If you owe money on the App Store because maybe your non-Apple card expired and you never updated it, Apple will shut down your account still.
- _qulr 6y ago
  > If you owe money on the App Store because maybe your non-Apple card expired and you never updated it, Apple will shut down your account still. That's not what happened though. His credit card didn't expire. His credit card was the Apple Card. With any other credit card, the merchant gets their money regardless of whether the card holder pays their credit card bill on time. You can buy a MacBook Pro with a Bank of America card, default on your credit card bill, and Apple still gets paid for the MacBook Pro. That's why the money is "credit". So defaulting on your Bank of America payments doesn't make your Apple ID shut down, there's no connection. If merchants didn't get their money from credit cards, then they would stop accepting credit cards. (Merchants are already pissed about the high fees charged by the cards.) This situation with the Apple Card is weird because the merchant and the credit card company are more or less the same company. It turns out, this is very problematic.
  - komocode 6y ago
    > That's not what happened though. His credit card didn't expire I didn't say that's what happened. I'm saying it's entirely possible Apple can shutdown your account for owing money even if you don't have an Apple Card. I had an iTunes account back in 2012 linked to my Paypal. One time I accidentally unlinked my Paypal and Apple wouldn't let me access my iCloud email unless I typed my password. When I typed in my password, it would ask me to verify my CC/Paypal details. When I clicked cancel, the entire process would just happen again.
    - _qulr 6y ago
      > Apple can shutdown your account for owing money Owing money to whom is the question. Apple can't shut down your account for owing money to Bank of America. Or for owing money to Goldman Sachs for a credit card not associated with Apple. In the case of Apple Card, who is the money owed to, Apple or Goldman Sachs? The latter is supposed to be the bank.
      - shuckles 6y ago
        Neither is relevant. The account was shut down because it owed Apple Retail money and they weren’t able to collect on its payment method on file, regardless of what that payment method was.
      - komocode 6y ago
        > Owing money to whom is the question. Today I can put an App Store charge on my Chase card and do a chargeback making up some stupid reason that I never got my app in which the chargeback would be successful. It's not entirely out of the question that Apple would lock my account until that charge is resolved. Similarly, Dustin could have used a Chase card to buy the M1 Mac, supposedly "tradein" without sending the device back, Apple erroneously crediting that CC, and then Apple locking down the account until that's resolved. Both situations result in owing Apple and both are totally plausible situations.
        _qulr 6y ago
        > Today I can put an App Store charge on my Chase card and do a chargeback making up some stupid reason that I never got my app in which the chargeback would be successful. It's not entirely out of the question that Apple would lock my account until that charge is resolved. Yes, we're all aware of chargebacks, and nobody is disputing that you would owe Apple in that situation. Not sure how this really helps the argument. The issue here is that the Apple Card seems to completely obliterate any separation between the merchant and the bank, which is obviously problematic. In fact there are 3 different things that you would expect to have some separation: the hardware (MacBook Pro), the services (iCloud), and the credit card. But now all 3 are the same, so buying the hardware with the credit card causes the service to be shut down. Whereas if the hardware were Dell, the service was Google, and the credit card was Chase, then this problem wouldn't exist, and it would merely be an issue between Chase and the card holder, not affecting the Google services at all.
  - shuckles 6y ago
    No. An auth can fail for regular cards as well, especially in a case like this when the auth was placed almost two months before the attempted charges. Most auth holds are only valid for a week or so. In your BofA card, the credit card could decline the charge if it put the holder over their credit limit. For all we know, that might be why the Apple Card charge was declined.
    - _qulr 6y ago
      >In your BofA card, the credit card could decline the charge if it put the holder over their credit limit. Yes, but when charges are declined, merchants don't ship the products. This is a weird case, because it was a retroactive charge not explicitly authorized by the card holder. That kind of thing rarely happens. > For all we know, that might be why the Apple Card charge was declined. What do you mean "For all we know"? The whole thing was explained in the article, we know exactly what happened.
      - shuckles 6y ago
        > This is a weird case, because it was a retroactive charge not explicitly authorized by the card holder. That kind of thing rarely happens And that is a feature of the trade-in buy flow and not how the purchaser chose to pay. Which is my point exactly which you have been trying to dispute. > The whole thing was explained in the article, we know exactly what happened. No we don’t. The article simply says their balance was not being paid. It’s possible that the trade in charge put them over their credit limit and that’s why it was declined. They never confirm otherwise.
        _qulr 6y ago
        > The article simply says their balance was not being paid. It’s possible that the trade in charge put them over their credit limit and that’s why it was declined. They never confirm otherwise. It's all spelled out very clearly: "As it turns out, my bank account number changed in January, causing Apple Card autopay to fail. Then the Apple Store made a charge on the card." His Apple Card was paid from his bank account. His bank account changed. He failed to update the bank info. Simple as that, no mystery whatsoever.
shuckles 6y ago
If I made a trade in purchase on January 1st with my Chase card, closed the card account on January 15th, failed to send in my trade in, and then did not act on any threatening emails from Apple thereafter, how do I not end up in exactly this situation?
- _qulr 6y ago
  > closed the card account This isn't what happened, so why make a false analogy?
  - shuckles 6y ago
    There are many reasons a payment method may fail. I outline another below regarding credit limits. Care to engage with the key ideas?
    - _qulr 6y ago
      > There are many reasons a payment method may fail. We know the reason. This was explained in the article.
      - shuckles 6y ago
        In this same thread people are reporting a similar experience when their PayPal account was unlinked. Even more evidence that Apple Card is primarily incidental. In addition, the reason in the article is a speculation qualified with “it appears.”
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Why do you post multiple comments with unsubstantiated things that never happened? Apple made multiple mistakes here and he made none.
  - shuckles 6y ago
    I’m not sure what your point is, but Apple released a summary of the situation, and my interpretation has been shown as totally correct.

by _qulr 6y ago

komocode 6y ago

> the main issue is that Apple shut down his other Apple services because of non-payment. This presumably wouldn't happen if the charge was on a non-Apple card. Not entirely true. If you owe money on the App Store because maybe your non-Apple card expired and you never updated it, Apple will shut down your account still.

_qulr 6y ago
> If you owe money on the App Store because maybe your non-Apple card expired and you never updated it, Apple will shut down your account still. That's not what happened though. His credit card didn't expire. His credit card was the Apple Card. With any other credit card, the merchant gets their money regardless of whether the card holder pays their credit card bill on time. You can buy a MacBook Pro with a Bank of America card, default on your credit card bill, and Apple still gets paid for the MacBook Pro. That's why the money is "credit". So defaulting on your Bank of America payments doesn't make your Apple ID shut down, there's no connection. If merchants didn't get their money from credit cards, then they would stop accepting credit cards. (Merchants are already pissed about the high fees charged by the cards.) This situation with the Apple Card is weird because the merchant and the credit card company are more or less the same company. It turns out, this is very problematic.
- komocode 6y ago
  > That's not what happened though. His credit card didn't expire I didn't say that's what happened. I'm saying it's entirely possible Apple can shutdown your account for owing money even if you don't have an Apple Card. I had an iTunes account back in 2012 linked to my Paypal. One time I accidentally unlinked my Paypal and Apple wouldn't let me access my iCloud email unless I typed my password. When I typed in my password, it would ask me to verify my CC/Paypal details. When I clicked cancel, the entire process would just happen again.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > Apple can shutdown your account for owing money Owing money to whom is the question. Apple can't shut down your account for owing money to Bank of America. Or for owing money to Goldman Sachs for a credit card not associated with Apple. In the case of Apple Card, who is the money owed to, Apple or Goldman Sachs? The latter is supposed to be the bank.
    - shuckles 6y ago
      Neither is relevant. The account was shut down because it owed Apple Retail money and they weren’t able to collect on its payment method on file, regardless of what that payment method was.
    - komocode 6y ago
      > Owing money to whom is the question. Today I can put an App Store charge on my Chase card and do a chargeback making up some stupid reason that I never got my app in which the chargeback would be successful. It's not entirely out of the question that Apple would lock my account until that charge is resolved. Similarly, Dustin could have used a Chase card to buy the M1 Mac, supposedly "tradein" without sending the device back, Apple erroneously crediting that CC, and then Apple locking down the account until that's resolved. Both situations result in owing Apple and both are totally plausible situations.
      - _qulr 6y ago
        > Today I can put an App Store charge on my Chase card and do a chargeback making up some stupid reason that I never got my app in which the chargeback would be successful. It's not entirely out of the question that Apple would lock my account until that charge is resolved. Yes, we're all aware of chargebacks, and nobody is disputing that you would owe Apple in that situation. Not sure how this really helps the argument. The issue here is that the Apple Card seems to completely obliterate any separation between the merchant and the bank, which is obviously problematic. In fact there are 3 different things that you would expect to have some separation: the hardware (MacBook Pro), the services (iCloud), and the credit card. But now all 3 are the same, so buying the hardware with the credit card causes the service to be shut down. Whereas if the hardware were Dell, the service was Google, and the credit card was Chase, then this problem wouldn't exist, and it would merely be an issue between Chase and the card holder, not affecting the Google services at all.
- shuckles 6y ago
  No. An auth can fail for regular cards as well, especially in a case like this when the auth was placed almost two months before the attempted charges. Most auth holds are only valid for a week or so. In your BofA card, the credit card could decline the charge if it put the holder over their credit limit. For all we know, that might be why the Apple Card charge was declined.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    >In your BofA card, the credit card could decline the charge if it put the holder over their credit limit. Yes, but when charges are declined, merchants don't ship the products. This is a weird case, because it was a retroactive charge not explicitly authorized by the card holder. That kind of thing rarely happens. > For all we know, that might be why the Apple Card charge was declined. What do you mean "For all we know"? The whole thing was explained in the article, we know exactly what happened.
    - shuckles 6y ago
      > This is a weird case, because it was a retroactive charge not explicitly authorized by the card holder. That kind of thing rarely happens And that is a feature of the trade-in buy flow and not how the purchaser chose to pay. Which is my point exactly which you have been trying to dispute. > The whole thing was explained in the article, we know exactly what happened. No we don’t. The article simply says their balance was not being paid. It’s possible that the trade in charge put them over their credit limit and that’s why it was declined. They never confirm otherwise.
      - _qulr 6y ago
        > The article simply says their balance was not being paid. It’s possible that the trade in charge put them over their credit limit and that’s why it was declined. They never confirm otherwise. It's all spelled out very clearly: "As it turns out, my bank account number changed in January, causing Apple Card autopay to fail. Then the Apple Store made a charge on the card." His Apple Card was paid from his bank account. His bank account changed. He failed to update the bank info. Simple as that, no mystery whatsoever.

shuckles 6y ago

If I made a trade in purchase on January 1st with my Chase card, closed the card account on January 15th, failed to send in my trade in, and then did not act on any threatening emails from Apple thereafter, how do I not end up in exactly this situation?

_qulr 6y ago
> closed the card account This isn't what happened, so why make a false analogy?
- shuckles 6y ago
  There are many reasons a payment method may fail. I outline another below regarding credit limits. Care to engage with the key ideas?
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > There are many reasons a payment method may fail. We know the reason. This was explained in the article.
    - shuckles 6y ago
      In this same thread people are reporting a similar experience when their PayPal account was unlinked. Even more evidence that Apple Card is primarily incidental. In addition, the reason in the article is a speculation qualified with “it appears.”
Daho0n 6y ago
Why do you post multiple comments with unsubstantiated things that never happened? Apple made multiple mistakes here and he made none.
- shuckles 6y ago
  I’m not sure what your point is, but Apple released a summary of the situation, and my interpretation has been shown as totally correct.