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Statnett, a state owned entity operated by the energy ministry, runs the Norwegian grid.

kgwgk 6y ago
I understand that. But the context of this thread was > there shouldn't be a profit motive attached to basic services like electricity
- torwayburger 6y ago
  I replied to (a comment) and tried to contrast how a state owned power grid can still have profit models attached and function both technically and for it's intended customers.
  - kgwgk 6y ago
    Interestingly, ERCOT is a non-profit. (Like most hospitals in the US, by the way, coming back to the original "There shouldn't be a profit motive attached to basic services like electricity, policing (private prisons), or medicine" comment.)
    - torwayburger 6y ago
      My understanding is that they're registered as a charitable organization, not a non-profit. These terms are often used interchangeably, but from a tax and earnings perspective they mean different things. This is often further confused with not-for-profit organizations, which is yet another thing.
      - kgwgk 6y ago
        501(c)(4)
        torwayburger 6y ago
        Right, not the same as 501(c)(3), was my point exactly.
        kgwgk 6y ago
        Who says 501(c)(4) are not non-profits? The 501(c)(3) are the charitable ones, by the way.
        torwayburger 6y ago
        No. My point was that 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4) are not the same thing. The important point to note in this case is: "501(c)(4) organizations may engage in unlimited lobbying in furtherance of their social welfare purposes." "The more generous limit of non-exempt activity permissible to a 501(c)(4) explains why a 501(c)(4) organization may engage in substantial amounts of political campaign intervention activities even though the regulations make clear that such activities do not constitute the promotion of social welfare." It's less pedantic and more: you can call a fork a spoon all you want, until you have to eat soup with it.
        kgwgk 6y ago
        Ok, so when I said “ERCOT is a non-profit” and you replied “they're registered as a charitable organization, not a non-profit” you really didn’t mean that it was not a non-profit and your point was that it’s a 501(c)(4) non-profit which is not the same thing as a 501(c)(3) non-profit. And a spoon is not the same thing as a fork. We agree on both counts. Edit: or maybe you were referring to hospitals? In that case you may be right and I was using the term loosely when I said “most”. There are different kinds of hospitals. My later comments were about ERCOT, not hospitals.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        501(c)s, including 501(c)(4)s, are nonprofits, so “not a nonprofit” was wrong. 501(c)(3)s are charitable organizations, so “as a charitable organization” was also wrong. But 501(c)(3)s are a subset of 501(c) and thus are also nonprofits, so your implication that they could be a registered charitable organization but not a nonprofit was also wrong. As a 501(c)(4) they are a nonprofit and not a charitable org; if they were a 501(c)(3) they would be both.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > My understanding is that they're registered as a charitable organization, not a non-profit. That's impossible in the US; “charitable organizations”—501(c)(3)—are a subset of nonprofits—501(c).

I understand that. But the context of this thread was > there shouldn't be a profit motive attached to basic services like electricity

torwayburger 6y ago
I replied to (a comment) and tried to contrast how a state owned power grid can still have profit models attached and function both technically and for it's intended customers.
- kgwgk 6y ago
  Interestingly, ERCOT is a non-profit. (Like most hospitals in the US, by the way, coming back to the original "There shouldn't be a profit motive attached to basic services like electricity, policing (private prisons), or medicine" comment.)
  - torwayburger 6y ago
    My understanding is that they're registered as a charitable organization, not a non-profit. These terms are often used interchangeably, but from a tax and earnings perspective they mean different things. This is often further confused with not-for-profit organizations, which is yet another thing.
    - kgwgk 6y ago
      501(c)(4)
      - torwayburger 6y ago
        Right, not the same as 501(c)(3), was my point exactly.
        kgwgk 6y ago
        Who says 501(c)(4) are not non-profits? The 501(c)(3) are the charitable ones, by the way.
        torwayburger 6y ago
        No. My point was that 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4) are not the same thing. The important point to note in this case is: "501(c)(4) organizations may engage in unlimited lobbying in furtherance of their social welfare purposes." "The more generous limit of non-exempt activity permissible to a 501(c)(4) explains why a 501(c)(4) organization may engage in substantial amounts of political campaign intervention activities even though the regulations make clear that such activities do not constitute the promotion of social welfare." It's less pedantic and more: you can call a fork a spoon all you want, until you have to eat soup with it.
        kgwgk 6y ago
        Ok, so when I said “ERCOT is a non-profit” and you replied “they're registered as a charitable organization, not a non-profit” you really didn’t mean that it was not a non-profit and your point was that it’s a 501(c)(4) non-profit which is not the same thing as a 501(c)(3) non-profit. And a spoon is not the same thing as a fork. We agree on both counts. Edit: or maybe you were referring to hospitals? In that case you may be right and I was using the term loosely when I said “most”. There are different kinds of hospitals. My later comments were about ERCOT, not hospitals.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        501(c)s, including 501(c)(4)s, are nonprofits, so “not a nonprofit” was wrong. 501(c)(3)s are charitable organizations, so “as a charitable organization” was also wrong. But 501(c)(3)s are a subset of 501(c) and thus are also nonprofits, so your implication that they could be a registered charitable organization but not a nonprofit was also wrong. As a 501(c)(4) they are a nonprofit and not a charitable org; if they were a 501(c)(3) they would be both.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > My understanding is that they're registered as a charitable organization, not a non-profit. That's impossible in the US; “charitable organizations”—501(c)(3)—are a subset of nonprofits—501(c).