5 ms·

Like mainly sleep “aids”, DPH just puts you into a fatigued state that is unlike naturalistic sleep. If insomnia / rumination / etc would otherwise keep one up

Like mainly sleep “aids”, DPH just puts you into a fatigued state that is unlike naturalistic sleep. If insomnia / rumination / etc would otherwise keep one up and the diphenhydramine allows one to fall asleep and get a night of suboptimal sleep as opposed to no sleep, it’s of course worth it, but otherwise stay well away. Interestingly almost everything that induces sleep harms the actual sleep quality. However I remember reading that GHB appears to improve sleep architecture, although I’ve never tried it personally

supersour 6y ago
1. Modafinil is the opposite of a sleep aid, so the first paragraph doesn't really apply. 2. Using GHB/Alcohol/Marijuana to help you feel more rested really depends on if the person has a medical condition or not. All of these drugs will suppress REM sleep (so will your typical SSRI), which for the average person may not be a good thing. However, those with narcolepsy have a much higher rate of REM sleep, preventing their body from going into deep sleep and thus (says the hypothesis) they don't get the awakeness/alerting benefits from sleep. Interestingly, those with depression and PTSD also have increased rates of REM sleep, so there is an interesting question of causality there.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  The first paragraph was about diphenhydramine (DPH) as a sleep aid. And I agree with the point. Any time I’ve tried to use it to help me sleep it sets me off on a downward spiral of bad sleep habits.
  - doggodaddo78 6y ago
    I can confirm DPH is awful. In general, I would only take it if were life-and-death.
- layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
  >All of these drugs will suppress REM sleep (so will your typical SSRI) Citation needed about the SSRI part, because one typical side effect of SSRIs is unusually vivid dreams.
  - supersour 6y ago
    "Reductions in the amount of REM sleep and increases in REM sleep onset latency are seen after taking antidepressants, both in healthy volunteers and in depressed patients. Antidepressants that increase serotonin function by blocking reuptake or by inhibiting metabolism have the greatest effect on REM sleep. The decrease in amount of REM sleep appears to be greatest early in treatment, and gradually diminishes during long-term treatment, except after monoamine oxidase inhibitors when REM sleep is often absent for many months."[1] I agree that the two data points are paradoxical, and I'm not sure what to make of it. Personally I have a much larger than average amount of REM sleep (confirmed by professionals when I was tested for narcolepsy/daytime sleepiness), but I do not have vivid dreams and seldom recall dreaming at all, despite talking and moving in my sleep. Nevertheless it's quite interesting. One hypothesis could be that less time in REM sleep leads to more intense bursts of REM, thus more vivid dreams? Or perhaps I am lacking knowledge and there is more to dreams than REM sleep. [1]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15892588/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15892588/
astrange 6y ago
Trazodone actually improves sleep quality when you take it for insomnia. Oddly I looked it up and apparently there is no evidence it objectively improves start time for sleep, but it sure feels like it does. Melatonin isn't too bad for actual sleep I think, but almost all supplements give you way too much - something like 1/3mg is enough. It does give me really bad dry eyes in the morning for some reason.
- randycupertino 6y ago
  Trazodone knocks me out. It also makes me lethargic the following day and less productive. I would only take half the lowest available dose (cut the lowest dose in half with a pill cutter) and it still gave me greatest sleep than anything else I'd ever tried. I still take it for flights and business travel (weird hotels) but otherwise it's too much for me.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  For a number of years, Mirtazapine helped me sleep, although it reduced dreaming to nil. Interestingly, the antihistamine sedation effect of it decreases at increased doses.
doggodaddo78 6y ago
In general, DPH seems like a terrible anticholinergic and obsolete antihistamine with limited uses. My ex-stepfather abused it nightly as a "sleep aid," his personality altered, became very depressed, and I think entered a pre-dementia/Alzheimer's state sooner than he would've otherwise. Probably not a good idea to experiment personally with GHB because it's Class I in the US and associated with date-rape, but it's worth considering in studies and research. It does seem to be the case that disordered sleep is the keystone of depression; I can also confirm missing one dose of mirtazapine at night feels exactly like an alcohol-induced hangover in the morning. I suspect depression accumulates during sleep. Interestingly, mirtazapine is a powerful H1 antihistamine that induces sleep at lower doses that are swamped by noradrenergic effects at higher doses. I would guess patients on mirtazapine have fewer incidents of seasonal allergies.

supersour 6y ago

1. Modafinil is the opposite of a sleep aid, so the first paragraph doesn't really apply. 2. Using GHB/Alcohol/Marijuana to help you feel more rested really depends on if the person has a medical condition or not. All of these drugs will suppress REM sleep (so will your typical SSRI), which for the average person may not be a good thing. However, those with narcolepsy have a much higher rate of REM sleep, preventing their body from going into deep sleep and thus (says the hypothesis) they don't get the awakeness/alerting benefits from sleep. Interestingly, those with depression and PTSD also have increased rates of REM sleep, so there is an interesting question of causality there.

travisjungroth 6y ago
The first paragraph was about diphenhydramine (DPH) as a sleep aid. And I agree with the point. Any time I’ve tried to use it to help me sleep it sets me off on a downward spiral of bad sleep habits.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  I can confirm DPH is awful. In general, I would only take it if were life-and-death.
layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
>All of these drugs will suppress REM sleep (so will your typical SSRI) Citation needed about the SSRI part, because one typical side effect of SSRIs is unusually vivid dreams.
- supersour 6y ago
  "Reductions in the amount of REM sleep and increases in REM sleep onset latency are seen after taking antidepressants, both in healthy volunteers and in depressed patients. Antidepressants that increase serotonin function by blocking reuptake or by inhibiting metabolism have the greatest effect on REM sleep. The decrease in amount of REM sleep appears to be greatest early in treatment, and gradually diminishes during long-term treatment, except after monoamine oxidase inhibitors when REM sleep is often absent for many months."[1] I agree that the two data points are paradoxical, and I'm not sure what to make of it. Personally I have a much larger than average amount of REM sleep (confirmed by professionals when I was tested for narcolepsy/daytime sleepiness), but I do not have vivid dreams and seldom recall dreaming at all, despite talking and moving in my sleep. Nevertheless it's quite interesting. One hypothesis could be that less time in REM sleep leads to more intense bursts of REM, thus more vivid dreams? Or perhaps I am lacking knowledge and there is more to dreams than REM sleep. [1]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15892588/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15892588/

astrange 6y ago

Trazodone actually improves sleep quality when you take it for insomnia. Oddly I looked it up and apparently there is no evidence it objectively improves start time for sleep, but it sure feels like it does. Melatonin isn't too bad for actual sleep I think, but almost all supplements give you way too much - something like 1/3mg is enough. It does give me really bad dry eyes in the morning for some reason.

randycupertino 6y ago
Trazodone knocks me out. It also makes me lethargic the following day and less productive. I would only take half the lowest available dose (cut the lowest dose in half with a pill cutter) and it still gave me greatest sleep than anything else I'd ever tried. I still take it for flights and business travel (weird hotels) but otherwise it's too much for me.
doggodaddo78 6y ago
For a number of years, Mirtazapine helped me sleep, although it reduced dreaming to nil. Interestingly, the antihistamine sedation effect of it decreases at increased doses.

doggodaddo78 6y ago

In general, DPH seems like a terrible anticholinergic and obsolete antihistamine with limited uses. My ex-stepfather abused it nightly as a "sleep aid," his personality altered, became very depressed, and I think entered a pre-dementia/Alzheimer's state sooner than he would've otherwise. Probably not a good idea to experiment personally with GHB because it's Class I in the US and associated with date-rape, but it's worth considering in studies and research. It does seem to be the case that disordered sleep is the keystone of depression; I can also confirm missing one dose of mirtazapine at night feels exactly like an alcohol-induced hangover in the morning. I suspect depression accumulates during sleep. Interestingly, mirtazapine is a powerful H1 antihistamine that induces sleep at lower doses that are swamped by noradrenergic effects at higher doses. I would guess patients on mirtazapine have fewer incidents of seasonal allergies.