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>I have a hard time seeing it because, well, the resolution does in fact not explicitly ban (E2E) encryption. If you need the actions of the government to be e

>I have a hard time seeing it because, well, the resolution does in fact not explicitly ban (E2E) encryption. If you need the actions of the government to be explicit then you'd have a difficult time to prove any case. Let's turn this back towards you, based on the evidence of previous actions by the government of the EU (and EU), how can you claim anything prevents this malicious behavior? Nothing explicitly prevents these abuses. This is an intentional design. Does the right to E2E exist in this resolution? It doesn't, so please don't assume they won't use a roundabout way to remove this human right. Please don't ignore abuses of governmental power, they weld their power with little recourse. Let's not be quick to encourage their poor legislation.

prof-dr-ir 6y ago
You seem to have upgraded the claim that "banning encryption is implicit in the resolution" for a far broader claim that I can probably summarize as "assume malice". But yet again, all I find to support the latter claim are sweeping statements without evidence. Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? (Also, the "EU government" does not exist, so with "governmental power" you maybe mean the power of the Commission?)
- heimatau 6y ago
  > Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? Their previous attempts to making encryption illegal. I believe encryption is a fundamental human right. You never answered my question. You seem bogged down on my characterization. Let me ask again without the characterization. What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption?
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption? Article 7 of the Charter of fundamental rights of the European Union: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12... > Article 7 > Respect for private and family life > Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. See also ECHR Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms article 8 https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf > ARTICLE 8 > Right to respect for private and family life1. > Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
    - heimatau 6y ago
      I appreciate your citations. What court cases prove your interpretation of the law? That's the rub.
  - prof-dr-ir 6y ago
    I can answer your question: unlike the great sibling comment, let me state that I do (or did) not know of such laws. But now what? Have you proved the point that I need to "assume malice"? Or have you now successfully argued for the narrower claim, that the resolution is indeed a proposed ban on encryption? I am very sorry but I really do not believe you have - which was, of course, the reason that I ignored your question in the first place.
    - heimatau 6y ago
      > Have you proved the point that I need to "assume malice"? Catch up to the conversation. I moved on from my characterization to repeat my question without the malice. You said 'i can answer your question', yet your entire comment is devoid of such answer. You're Sybil'ing this issue. Only obstructing the real issue at hand. The real issue is whether the laws (via court cases ensure interpretation is correct) says it's allowed or banned. The good faith in the government or bad faith in the government is moot. The intention/malice distracts from the actual point. Which is why I moved on from it because I'm trying to engage you in the actual issue. Nothing explicitly protects citizens right to encryption. No law. No court case. And until that's plainly laid out, we shouldn't be offering our trust to any ruler over us. Whether their intent is positive or negative, it's entirely moot. Whether citizens have a human right. That's the issue and you've spoken to distract from the issue. I encourage you, prove your case that EU provides this human right.
      - prof-dr-ir 6y ago
        > we shouldn't be offering our trust to any ruler over us But that is exactly the claim I tried to summarize two comments ago as "assume malice"... > I encourage you, prove your case that EU provides this human right. This is a basic tenet of law: it is not forbidden, hence you are free to use encryption everywhere in the EU. QED :) You probably want to argue that in an ideal world, the right to use encryption should be written into the EU treaties. (Another option would be the ECHR, but good luck getting Russia on board!) That might be laudable, but until such is done we seem to have to (unfortunately!) give some bit of trust to the law-makers here and ask whether or not they will actually move and introduce a law that bans encryption. For example, someone can claim that EU lawmakers want to forbid us from eating cake. As a cake-lover I would be tempted to protest, but should I not maybe first check if the claim is actually reliable? That is what I am trying to do here. If the claim is not reliable, there might be no need to call for an amendment to the treaties to ensure cake-eating remains legal.

prof-dr-ir 6y ago

You seem to have upgraded the claim that "banning encryption is implicit in the resolution" for a far broader claim that I can probably summarize as "assume malice". But yet again, all I find to support the latter claim are sweeping statements without evidence. Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? (Also, the "EU government" does not exist, so with "governmental power" you maybe mean the power of the Commission?)

heimatau 6y ago
> Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? Their previous attempts to making encryption illegal. I believe encryption is a fundamental human right. You never answered my question. You seem bogged down on my characterization. Let me ask again without the characterization. What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption?
- DanBC 6y ago
  > What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption? Article 7 of the Charter of fundamental rights of the European Union: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12... > Article 7 > Respect for private and family life > Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. See also ECHR Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms article 8 https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf > ARTICLE 8 > Right to respect for private and family life1. > Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
  - heimatau 6y ago
    I appreciate your citations. What court cases prove your interpretation of the law? That's the rub.
- prof-dr-ir 6y ago
  I can answer your question: unlike the great sibling comment, let me state that I do (or did) not know of such laws. But now what? Have you proved the point that I need to "assume malice"? Or have you now successfully argued for the narrower claim, that the resolution is indeed a proposed ban on encryption? I am very sorry but I really do not believe you have - which was, of course, the reason that I ignored your question in the first place.
  - heimatau 6y ago
    > Have you proved the point that I need to "assume malice"? Catch up to the conversation. I moved on from my characterization to repeat my question without the malice. You said 'i can answer your question', yet your entire comment is devoid of such answer. You're Sybil'ing this issue. Only obstructing the real issue at hand. The real issue is whether the laws (via court cases ensure interpretation is correct) says it's allowed or banned. The good faith in the government or bad faith in the government is moot. The intention/malice distracts from the actual point. Which is why I moved on from it because I'm trying to engage you in the actual issue. Nothing explicitly protects citizens right to encryption. No law. No court case. And until that's plainly laid out, we shouldn't be offering our trust to any ruler over us. Whether their intent is positive or negative, it's entirely moot. Whether citizens have a human right. That's the issue and you've spoken to distract from the issue. I encourage you, prove your case that EU provides this human right.
    - prof-dr-ir 6y ago
      > we shouldn't be offering our trust to any ruler over us But that is exactly the claim I tried to summarize two comments ago as "assume malice"... > I encourage you, prove your case that EU provides this human right. This is a basic tenet of law: it is not forbidden, hence you are free to use encryption everywhere in the EU. QED :) You probably want to argue that in an ideal world, the right to use encryption should be written into the EU treaties. (Another option would be the ECHR, but good luck getting Russia on board!) That might be laudable, but until such is done we seem to have to (unfortunately!) give some bit of trust to the law-makers here and ask whether or not they will actually move and introduce a law that bans encryption. For example, someone can claim that EU lawmakers want to forbid us from eating cake. As a cake-lover I would be tempted to protest, but should I not maybe first check if the claim is actually reliable? That is what I am trying to do here. If the claim is not reliable, there might be no need to call for an amendment to the treaties to ensure cake-eating remains legal.