8 ms·

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspac

I'm curious, I'm a Cloud customer and I can tell you that the service is incredibly slow even for a small scale setup (2 Jira Projects and 3 Confluence Workspaces). There's an insane amount of network requests seemingly for mouse tracking. By telling everyone here, that Atlassian Cloud products are insufferably slow, am I violating the ToS? I was actually thinking about doing a write up on the issues I've had but this seems to make me think I should do so AFTER I find someplace else to go. Right now GitHub is the likely destination but would love to hear other suggestions.

SigKill9 6y ago
If you are looking for a fast alternative, we're building www.kitemaker.co (I'm one of the founders). We're part of the upcoming YC batch, and I'd be happy to help you onboard and import existing projects if needed.
confluence_perf 6y ago
Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number of network calls and such, because while the latter is correlated, the former (frustrating slow experiences) is really the bar and the higher priority. In terms of the ToS I'm not from legal so can't say (still looking into it), but have definitely had conversations with users on public forums about performance issues, and afaik no one has been accused of violating their ToS. (edit: since I can't reply due to HN limits I'll try to add some stuff in this edit) ------- @plorkyeran "target things that are easier to fix than those with highest impact" -> this is a good point and something we're trying to do. Engineers know the former (easier to fix) pretty readily, but identifying "highest impact" requires some work, so I'm (as a PM) always trying to find out. It's of course some combination of these two (low hanging fruit, high impact items) that forms the priority list. ------ @igetspam (moved followup into a reply to trigger notification) ------@core-questions "perf to take over company for 6mo-1yr" I'm not in the position to make that level of decisions, but can certainly pass the feedback up the chain. The perf team is trying their best though, so any info anyone can provide us can help us apply our resources in the right place
- Slackwise 6y ago
  > I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Can you guys please make Ctrl-S save and not exit editing? My muscle memory is costing me 10+ seconds of load times every time I type a paragraph and reflexively save, getting dumped back to the view mode of a document. The slow load times exacerbate the problem tremendously. I honestly don't know a single product that treats Ctrl/Cmd-S as "Save and Exit" so this is just a baffling UI/UX design decision.
  - confluence_perf 6y ago
    Hi Slackwise, This is interesting -> I don't think Ctrl+S should be exiting editing in any form, can you describe this a little bit further? When you hit this is it: a) moving to Preview (you can see the changes you made, but in preview mode not page view mode (the page tree won't be visible) b) browser returns to the 'view page' (page tree visible), but your changes are not published (you may see a tag at the top "UNPUBLISHED CHANGES") c) something else (please describe) Second question: what does the browser's forward/back buttons display after the 'ctrl+S' result?
    - Slackwise 6y ago
      This isn't the cloud offering, but on-prem. I assume they're the same. The about page says "Confluence 6.15.2". When I click "Edit" to edit a page, via `/pages/editpage.action?pageId=`, and hit Ctrl-S, it takes me back to the view mode rendered via `/display/SPACE/Page+Title`. Absolutely infuriating and wastes an incredible amount of time. I can't get over my muscle memory. The "Save" button in the bottom-right does the same and appears to be what the hotkey activates. No mention of it being a "Save and Quit Editing". Hovering over the button says "Save your page (Ctrl-S)".
      - confluence_perf 6y ago
        Thanks for mentioning that -> honestly I keep forgetting to ask because I work on the Cloud side. I will see if I can find some server folks to ask around, but obviously can't promise any movement.
isodev 6y ago
JetBrains recently announced Space and it looks pretty cool (and fast): https://www.jetbrains.com/space/ https://www.jetbrains.com/space/
- foepys 6y ago
  Currently cloud-only but an on-premises version has been announced. So while Atlassian goes cloud-only, Jetbrains is going in the other direction.
- fullstackwife 6y ago
  "looks cool and fast" - DMC DeLorean ?
- dalrympm 6y ago
  I'm a heavy JetBrains user but I've found their server side offerings to be lacking. I haven't been a fan of YouTrack in the past but maybe it's time to give them another try.
- benbristow 6y ago
  Looks interesting, like a JetBrains Azure DevOps/VSTS.
  - isodev 6y ago
    Yes, they are going for a “all in one” including project and team org functions, source control etc. I’ve been using it for pet projects since the beta.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
I'm very curious about where the slowdown is coming from. Is it mostly JS on the client or Java on the server? When I ran my own Confluence server on a Digital Ocean VM, it was slow but not unbearable. I assumed it was Tomcat's fault* or the fact that I wasn't using a "real" database on the backend (a configuration Atlassian frowns upon). *Confluence is built on Tomcat. Don't know if this is also true for Jira. Now that my Confluence server is on Atlassian's cloud, it seems much slower still. So I have to assume it's not client-side JS because that hasn't changed much; there's some kind of resource starvation going on with Atlassian's servers.
- deathweasel 6y ago
  Over here, at least, a lot of the time is spent just waiting for content. Even static content from CDNs. I'm guessing they're not geolocating properly. See https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Jira-questions/How-to-switch-the-geolocation-of-cloud-instance/qaq-p/1026055 https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Jira-questions/How-to-swi...
- EdwardDiego 6y ago
  Tomcat is fast, unless you do slow things synchronously.
sharken 6y ago
I think future customers would like to know what kind of performance to expect, so a write-up sounds like a great idea. It sounds like a bad business decision to not support open discussion on performance, it makes me think that they have something to hide.
jchook 6y ago
Check out Clubhouse.io I've used many others including Github, GitLab, Phabricator, Redmine, etc., and Clubhouse does a great job IMO.
- bak3y 6y ago
  My org uses Clubhouse, and it's still slow. Probably not as slow as Jira, but it's a running joke where I work.
  - jchook 6y ago
    Interesting! What size org? We recently passed 10k stories and it still feels very snappy. Also the UI/UX feels very polished.
    - bak3y 6y ago
      We're barely over 1k employees, and most of those don't use Clubhouse. Not sure how to tell exactly how many stories we have in CH.
      - jchook 6y ago
        You may be able to tell from the ID #
- chrisandchris 6y ago
  Is there an on-prem version?
  - jchook 6y ago
    Their FAQ[1] says no, but they would like to gauge interest in that feature and to reach-out to their support team. 1. https://help.clubhouse.io/hc/en-us/articles/360036047091-Clubhouse-FAQ https://help.clubhouse.io/hc/en-us/articles/360036047091-Clu...
texasbigdata 6y ago
Doesn't Oracle sue if you benchmark them and release the results publicly or is that an old wives tail? On a YouTube lecture at CMU the Materialize guys seemed to try very hard to not even land in the same zip code as that discussion to the point it was awkward, and they seem pretty smart. Are these large organizations really that petty? Ad absurdism, would it be legal if Ford said we couldn’t drag race their car after we bought it?
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.html https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.h... You may not: disclose results of any Program benchmark tests without Oracle’s prior consent
samb1729 6y ago
Atlassian products in general spray out a huge number of requests to dozens of hostnames for even the most basic of actions. It scares me to think how their organisation is structured internally given the outwardly visible result. If you’d like to see it for yourself, run Little Snitch in alert mode and try to sign into bitbucket.org - it’s almost comical how many hoops your browser jumps through.

SigKill9 6y ago

If you are looking for a fast alternative, we're building www.kitemaker.co (I'm one of the founders). We're part of the upcoming YC batch, and I'd be happy to help you onboard and import existing projects if needed.

confluence_perf 6y ago

Sorry to hear it's been a frustrating experience. I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Would you be willing to share more specifics, such as: - Pages with content X are the slowest - Trying to do A/B/C is annoyingly slow - etc ? (edit: looks like HN is severely limiting my reply rate so apologies for delays) We're trying to focus on frustrating pages/experiences rather than number of network calls and such, because while the latter is correlated, the former (frustrating slow experiences) is really the bar and the higher priority. In terms of the ToS I'm not from legal so can't say (still looking into it), but have definitely had conversations with users on public forums about performance issues, and afaik no one has been accused of violating their ToS. (edit: since I can't reply due to HN limits I'll try to add some stuff in this edit) ------- @plorkyeran "target things that are easier to fix than those with highest impact" -> this is a good point and something we're trying to do. Engineers know the former (easier to fix) pretty readily, but identifying "highest impact" requires some work, so I'm (as a PM) always trying to find out. It's of course some combination of these two (low hanging fruit, high impact items) that forms the priority list. ------ @igetspam (moved followup into a reply to trigger notification) ------@core-questions "perf to take over company for 6mo-1yr" I'm not in the position to make that level of decisions, but can certainly pass the feedback up the chain. The perf team is trying their best though, so any info anyone can provide us can help us apply our resources in the right place

Slackwise 6y ago
> I'm a PM for Confluence Cloud and we're always trying to make it better. Can you guys please make Ctrl-S save and not exit editing? My muscle memory is costing me 10+ seconds of load times every time I type a paragraph and reflexively save, getting dumped back to the view mode of a document. The slow load times exacerbate the problem tremendously. I honestly don't know a single product that treats Ctrl/Cmd-S as "Save and Exit" so this is just a baffling UI/UX design decision.
- confluence_perf 6y ago
  Hi Slackwise, This is interesting -> I don't think Ctrl+S should be exiting editing in any form, can you describe this a little bit further? When you hit this is it: a) moving to Preview (you can see the changes you made, but in preview mode not page view mode (the page tree won't be visible) b) browser returns to the 'view page' (page tree visible), but your changes are not published (you may see a tag at the top "UNPUBLISHED CHANGES") c) something else (please describe) Second question: what does the browser's forward/back buttons display after the 'ctrl+S' result?
  - Slackwise 6y ago
    This isn't the cloud offering, but on-prem. I assume they're the same. The about page says "Confluence 6.15.2". When I click "Edit" to edit a page, via `/pages/editpage.action?pageId=`, and hit Ctrl-S, it takes me back to the view mode rendered via `/display/SPACE/Page+Title`. Absolutely infuriating and wastes an incredible amount of time. I can't get over my muscle memory. The "Save" button in the bottom-right does the same and appears to be what the hotkey activates. No mention of it being a "Save and Quit Editing". Hovering over the button says "Save your page (Ctrl-S)".
    - confluence_perf 6y ago
      Thanks for mentioning that -> honestly I keep forgetting to ask because I work on the Cloud side. I will see if I can find some server folks to ask around, but obviously can't promise any movement.

isodev 6y ago

JetBrains recently announced Space and it looks pretty cool (and fast): https://www.jetbrains.com/space/ https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

foepys 6y ago
Currently cloud-only but an on-premises version has been announced. So while Atlassian goes cloud-only, Jetbrains is going in the other direction.
fullstackwife 6y ago
"looks cool and fast" - DMC DeLorean ?
dalrympm 6y ago
I'm a heavy JetBrains user but I've found their server side offerings to be lacking. I haven't been a fan of YouTrack in the past but maybe it's time to give them another try.
benbristow 6y ago
Looks interesting, like a JetBrains Azure DevOps/VSTS.
- isodev 6y ago
  Yes, they are going for a “all in one” including project and team org functions, source control etc. I’ve been using it for pet projects since the beta.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

I'm very curious about where the slowdown is coming from. Is it mostly JS on the client or Java on the server? When I ran my own Confluence server on a Digital Ocean VM, it was slow but not unbearable. I assumed it was Tomcat's fault* or the fact that I wasn't using a "real" database on the backend (a configuration Atlassian frowns upon). *Confluence is built on Tomcat. Don't know if this is also true for Jira. Now that my Confluence server is on Atlassian's cloud, it seems much slower still. So I have to assume it's not client-side JS because that hasn't changed much; there's some kind of resource starvation going on with Atlassian's servers.

deathweasel 6y ago
Over here, at least, a lot of the time is spent just waiting for content. Even static content from CDNs. I'm guessing they're not geolocating properly. See https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Jira-questions/How-to-switch-the-geolocation-of-cloud-instance/qaq-p/1026055 https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Jira-questions/How-to-swi...
EdwardDiego 6y ago
Tomcat is fast, unless you do slow things synchronously.

sharken 6y ago

I think future customers would like to know what kind of performance to expect, so a write-up sounds like a great idea. It sounds like a bad business decision to not support open discussion on performance, it makes me think that they have something to hide.

jchook 6y ago

Check out Clubhouse.io I've used many others including Github, GitLab, Phabricator, Redmine, etc., and Clubhouse does a great job IMO.

bak3y 6y ago
My org uses Clubhouse, and it's still slow. Probably not as slow as Jira, but it's a running joke where I work.
- jchook 6y ago
  Interesting! What size org? We recently passed 10k stories and it still feels very snappy. Also the UI/UX feels very polished.
  - bak3y 6y ago
    We're barely over 1k employees, and most of those don't use Clubhouse. Not sure how to tell exactly how many stories we have in CH.
    - jchook 6y ago
      You may be able to tell from the ID #
chrisandchris 6y ago
Is there an on-prem version?
- jchook 6y ago
  Their FAQ[1] says no, but they would like to gauge interest in that feature and to reach-out to their support team. 1. https://help.clubhouse.io/hc/en-us/articles/360036047091-Clubhouse-FAQ https://help.clubhouse.io/hc/en-us/articles/360036047091-Clu...

texasbigdata 6y ago

Doesn't Oracle sue if you benchmark them and release the results publicly or is that an old wives tail? On a YouTube lecture at CMU the Materialize guys seemed to try very hard to not even land in the same zip code as that discussion to the point it was awkward, and they seem pretty smart. Are these large organizations really that petty? Ad absurdism, would it be legal if Ford said we couldn’t drag race their car after we bought it?

vbezhenar 6y ago
https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.html https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.h... You may not: disclose results of any Program benchmark tests without Oracle’s prior consent

samb1729 6y ago

Atlassian products in general spray out a huge number of requests to dozens of hostnames for even the most basic of actions. It scares me to think how their organisation is structured internally given the outwardly visible result. If you’d like to see it for yourself, run Little Snitch in alert mode and try to sign into bitbucket.org - it’s almost comical how many hoops your browser jumps through.