8 ms·

Also: 24% VAT (sales tax) 18% employer payroll taxes 10% employee payroll taxes 20-30% typical income tax Take your American disposable income and cut it i

Also: 24% VAT (sales tax) 18% employer payroll taxes 10% employee payroll taxes 20-30% typical income tax Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Also a lot of cold and darkness.

jperras 6y ago
> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes.
- fapi1974 6y ago
  Yes.
- peterburkimsher 6y ago
  Yes, because I'd rather live in a society where everyone has a decent education, instead of segregating the population based on who can pay to become smarter.
  - gitgud 6y ago
    Perfectly sums up my feelings. Sidenote: I would have the internet would have made paying for education obsolete... But it seems information and education are not equivalent...
6177c40f 6y ago
Would you not be saving (or at least not spending more) money by not having to pay for your healthcare needs. Besides the fact that if the rents really are cheap, then that would also be a huge savings for a lot of people.
- distances 6y ago
  Rents are not cheap, except maybe if compared to SF.
eepp 6y ago
> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes.
tbrake 6y ago
Ah yes, a healthier, better educated populace - the historic marker of a society in decline.
- voidmain0001 6y ago
  Thank you for that belly laugh!
socialdemocrat 6y ago
It is not like taxes disappear into a black hole never to be seen. Most of that money comes back to you in the form of services Americans would have to pay for anyway. What matters is what the taxes give you. A lot of American taxes don’t give people much of anything. Maintaining the worlds largest prison population is expensive but what exactly does that give the Average American? Worlds largest military also sucks up tax dollars but don’t give any benefits back. Finnish taxes give you education, health care, child care, sick leave, vacation, job retraining, great public transport and many other thing directly improving your quality of life.
- Devils-Avocado 6y ago
  In Europe those services pay for a huge welfare and pension system, and healthcare which is mostly used by the elderly. Very little benefit will be received by a working-age expat.
  - Teever 6y ago
    That's a great generalization about the entire continent of Europe but do you have any specific issues with how taxes in Finland are used?
  - purerandomness 6y ago
    As a working-age expat, you might still have an ambulance called after an accident or a drug overdose after partying, having cancer surgery, a flu shot, a pregnancy or an IVF, all for free.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      They have ambulances in the US too. Also, isn't Finland a country where you pay health insurance? If that is free, a lot of things in the US suddenly are free as well.
      - purerandomness 6y ago
        > They have ambulances in the US too. We were talking about costs. In the US, calling an ambulance is not guaranteed to be free. OP claimed that as a young, healthy expat, you don't benefit from a system where your tax payments finance health care. I showed examples where a young, healthy expat directy benefits from this system, by having medical emergencies that would potentially bankrupt you in the US. Not sure I followed your point here.
donkey-hotei 6y ago
Yes.
sterlind 6y ago
Yeah, that sounds like a good trade to me. Having free education and free healthcare means I can take risks and join a start-up or get another degree, rather than worrying about losing my coverage and getting sick from my chronic illness. Also I love the sound of the language, and would like to learn it, and the cold never bothered me anyway.
tipiirai 6y ago
I live in Helsinki. People here are generally happy to pay the taxes to get all the good stuff from the goverment. I would personally support higher tax levels.
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  Personally I’m against higher tax: I’ve paid a lot in and gotten very little out.
  - tipiirai 6y ago
    In Finland?
    - shitgoose 6y ago
      anywhere
- stevekemp 6y ago
  I moved to Helsinki from Edinburgh, my taxes are higher here in Finland than they were in Scotland but I don't complain. The public transport, the child-friendly facilities, and similar things make me "happy" to pay. Lovely city and I regret nothing about my time here.
trynewideas 6y ago
> Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. Cancer already takes all of it here, tyvm, so I'd gladly like to see half of it back.
markdown 6y ago
> Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. All that disposable income but no vacation time to spend it.
- NeutronStar 6y ago
  The worse is his "disposable income" includes having to pay for health insurance which is covered by our "high taxes". Even worse is he's still gonna have to pay for his healthcare as his insurance won't cover everything. They always forget that one.
- conanbatt 6y ago
  You can take all the vacations you want if you have money
- cpach 6y ago
  It used to be that tech employees in the US had very few vacation days compared to people in Europe. However, AFAICT now the FAANG companies seem to offer more vacation days and it seems to get closer to what is typical for Europe.
jjav 6y ago
> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? No brainer, absolutely worth it. Even making good money in Silicon Valley I'm perpetually afraid of medical bankruptcy if something were to happen. And the cost of education here takes another 15% off my salary for schools far lower quality than in Finland.
- TheGrim-888 6y ago
  If you're afraid of an unexpected large financial burden, I have news for you, there's a product you can buy that limits the unexpected burden in return for small regular payments, it's called insurance! If you're afraid of your vehicle being unexpectedly totaled, you can insure it! Similarly, you can buy health insurance to insure you against the scenario you're so worried about. It's an unheard of idea, I know. And even better, the extra 30+% of your paycheck that you don't have to pay in tax, you can use that to pay for your health insurance.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  You're "making good money in Silicon Valley" and don't have health insurance? Are you freelancing and choosing not to purchase insurance?
  - bleepblorp 6y ago
    The overwhelming majority of Americans who experience medical bankruptcy have health insurance.
  - misterpigs 6y ago
    You're assuming that whatever you're stricken with leaves you in good enough health to continue working.
    - refurb 6y ago
      But that’s true in Canada as well. The medical expenses might not bankrupt you, but not being able to work will. https://bankruptcy-canada.com/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy/ https://bankruptcy-canada.com/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptc...
artursilva 6y ago
I mean if you do the math on it, it's a lower upfront cost for everyone with insurance that you won't be bankrupted by chance, thus creating more stable more incremental wealth. So it depends, but as a general policy it's far more sensible to have stability than not. The question should be whether we could lower those costs (taxes) and still have the free education and free healthcare, and if so what are the compromises to be made in order to do that. Remember it's not a zero sum game, which means a nation can start to produce wealth or save on costs, bringing up efficiency and lowering the required taxes per person to deliver the same goods and service. The real problem is corruption, and inefficiencies.
ksdale 6y ago
If these numbers are correct, the payroll taxes total about 13% higher than American payroll taxes, but if you add in what Americans pay for the health insurance that’s presumably included in one of these taxes, it’s probably fairly similar. 20-30% is a very normal marginal American tax rate, and the VAT is high (looks like it may be lower for certain things), but not ridiculous compared to a lot of American state income taxes (Since the income tax is on income and not just consumption). I’m skeptical of a halving of disposable income, especially for someone moving from somewhere like California.
- Sharlin 6y ago
  > (looks like it may be lower for certain things) Namely, 14% for food (both groceries and restaurant, excl. alcohol), 10% for books, exercise services like gyms, culture/entertainment tickets, hotel accommodation, public transit, and over-the-counter drugs (prescription drugs are heavily subsidized by the state).
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    14% for food is quite high, but I've personally lived in two cities with a 10.25% sales tax (Chicago & Santa Monica); so that's not far out of line with at least some American cities.
todsul 6y ago
There are certainly downsides to living in Finland, but you picked a poor comparison in taxes. Taxes in the US are NOT low. Income tax is only one of many taxes in the US. In some states/cities, your property tax can exceed income tax. My state has extremely high taxes on cars too. It all adds up to a lot of money and a relatively high total tax rate. I wouldn't be surprised it a significant number of people in the US have a higher total tax rate than the Finnish average. Of course you can choose low-tax states, but the US as a whole certainly isn't some sort of tax haven.
- usr1106 6y ago
  Not an expert an the area, but from what I read the US is a tax heaven for the super rich, Finland certainly is not. Progressive tax rates are high. There are creative ways to get your (should I say their?) income avoiding progression, then it's flat 30%. Both are taxing the normal mortals, Finland probably slightly higher.
briffle 6y ago
I pay federal and state income tax, plus my employer pays payroll taxes, plus property tax. My state has no sales tax, but pretty high property tax. Plus, my employer and I pay about $1800 a month for healthcare, plus a few hundred a month in student loans. My disposable american income is probably much less..
fogihujy 6y ago
> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? For me? Yes. Without the shadow of a doubt. I'd stay out of Helsinki, though. Too many people! :D
hyeomans 6y ago
Yes. Come and live in a banana republic and it will be worth it.
Jommi 6y ago
As an engineer you're already going to be making enough money to be comfortable in Finland for the rest of your life. In addition to that, there is no stress from minmaxing your whole life like in USA. Real life isn't diablo, you're supposed to enjoy it. There's a reason Finland tops satisfaction/happiness charts every single time. I think it says a lot about the person on how they value these decisions
elviejo 6y ago
Hell yes!! In other posts people are complaining about the homeless people living in SF... you know how you avoid homeless persons?? by having taxes paid healthcare (there is no free), taxes paid education, taxes paid home support.
- ghufran_syed 6y ago
  living in a place too cold to survive on the street probably makes a difference too...
jrockway 6y ago
I am not sure that this is much worse than the US. The government gets about 44% of what it costs to employ me (that is, I'm including taxes that the employer pays the government, but come before the negotiated salary, if that makes any sense). I then pay about 9% tax on everything I buy (8.875% technically). This doesn't include any healthcare, housing, food, or savings for my retirement. The cost of having a society is high. The big difference between Europe and the US is that there is some sort of safety net if you become unable to work. Here, you get a cardboard box under the highway and a stern lecture to try harder next time from a 104-year-old politician that's never had a real job in their life. It's good when it's good, but it can get bad fast.
usr1106 6y ago
Having lived in several European countries I'd say Finland has probably one of the weaker health care systems. * every legal resident has access to basic health care in their own municipality. A visit costs around 30 euros, max 700 euros a year (Which is a lot compared to Germany, cheap compared to the US). Queues can be long, several weeks. Negotiation skills help, but as a foreigner you might get blocked completely as a trouble maker if you think to negotiate in English * nearly everybody with a full employment contract has basic health care coverage by their employer at a private provider. Normally you get an appointment the next day or so and you pay absolutely nothing. So most employed people just skip their "free" public health care, because it is worse. Yes, the employement health care is subsidized by tax money (although they are cutting back). This is not mandatory, so the details especially for mor expensive treatments and examinations vary a bit. When your employer stops paying you need to fall back to public service or pay yourself. * for kids around 50% have private insurance to avoid the queing at the public service * medicines are expensive compared to Germany, but cheap compared to market prices. Well, basically they are covered by the public health insurance, but the compensation is far from 100%, own contribution max 600 euros a year. * hospital care is 50 euros a day, max 700 a year. There can be some queues, but for acute cases there should be no problem. (Non-acute cases can be a pain.) In real serious cases the 1500 or so Euros you pay a year is of course cheap compared to complete bankruptcy or even remaining without good treatment. Being relatively healthy paying several 100 Euros a year is more than you would pay in many European countries with a public health insurance systems.
- refurb 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing these details. It’s always interesting to read what the system is like on a day to day basis versus talking about “universal care” as if every system is identical.
- deanclatworthy 6y ago
  This is very accurate and has been my experience too. Public has been great when acute (broken limbs) and frustratingly slow with chronic but dehabilitating conditions.
- zooweemama 6y ago
ZeteticElench 6y ago
You sound like you voted for Trump.
kaitai 6y ago
Hey, when I was paying $14k/year for childcare... yep. Now I'm only paying like $8k/yr for childcare. If I had two-three kids, Finland would be an easy financial win. And just think about college there! My sib went there for grad school because of the finances & stayed. Thinking about following.
hestefisk 6y ago
I’d take higher taxes and welfare state over Trump and American private health payer system any day.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
disabled 6y ago
> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes. The taxes are worth it, for a stable society. This US 2020 election: An Associated Press analysis reveals that in 376 counties with the highest number of new cases per capita, the overwhelming majority — 93% of those counties — went for Trump, a rate above other less severely hit areas.: https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus-updates-20201105-zmkrvcttqrerhnemp5xk7owo4m-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus... 2016 US election (there are multiple studies on it but there was one from Boston University public health that was the most revealing): Study: Communities Most Affected By Opioid Epidemic Also Voted For Trump: https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505965420/study-communities-most-affected-by-opioid-epidemic-also-voted-for-trump https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505965420/study-communities-m... I am a dual US|Croatian (European Union) citizen. I happily pay Croatian taxes, just for the stability. I don’t have to worry about amassing a huge amount of savings for retirement as an EU citizen and I can work/live/retire in 30+ countries. (By the way, if you save for retirement, in the millions range, it may not pay for your cancer or rare disease treatment, even if covered by insurance, due to Medicare Part D catastrophic coverage level. I know this because my out-of-pocket responsibility for my blood product costs $50,000+/year under Medicare Part D, under catastrophic coverage level. 7% of the general population has some sort of a rare disease and obviously cancer is a common diagnosis) > Also a lot of cold and darkness. Well, I’m from Seattle and I have to say, you eventually get used to the dreariness, cold, and darkness.
ponker 6y ago
I doubt the co-founder of Webflow gives a crap.
enahs-sf 6y ago
Username checks out.
quickthrower2 6y ago
I don't see this as a relocation opportunity. It sounds like a travel opportunity. I think digital nomads will go for this, then that's 90 days of those tax levels, which makes no difference as they are optimising for experience not income (otherwise they'd stay working onsite for a FAANG)
theshrike79 6y ago
4-5 weeks paid vacation. No "sick days" to keep track of, if you're sick you still get paid. It's only dark half the year, the other half is all light all the time.
speedgoose 6y ago
Yes, definitely. If you only think about you and your family, in this system you can also be sure that your children will have access to free education and free health care, and your grandchildren too. It's also nice to live in a society where everyone has access to free education and free healthcare. The inequalities are not as big and it benefits you indirectly.
msh 6y ago
Why do you put free in quotes? Weather its wort it is still a personal question, but my education was certainly free including my masters degree (I even got paid a stipend to study like everyone else).
params 6y ago
That's funny, because when viewing those numbers from a Swedish perspective they're not that controversive or high. I would go so far and say that they're below medium, some of them reaching low. I would get to keep so much more of my salary in Finland, since my income tax is at around 40% here in Sweden. Add to that all the other kreeping taxes added over time. I love Sweden tho, no tax can change that ;)
jusssi 6y ago
Your list has some inaccuracies and omissions. There are also quite significant 14% (e.g. groceries, restaurants) and 10% (some specific services) VAT categories. Most of employer payroll "tax" (~18%) and employee payroll "tax" (8.4%) is actually mandatory pension fund payments and counts toward your accumulated pension. Many people choose to pay the 1% church tax, even though it is entirely optional (most of those people participate in any church stuff only for weddings and funerals). We also pay ridiculously high taxes for cars and fuel, tobacco and alcohol. Additional things we get for our taxes: * 'free' defense against our eastern neighbor (we only have to pay with our blood, if they ever decide to try again) * 'free' mental health care and basic necessities for the crazies in the subway, so I don't have to be their therapist and they're slightly less likely to murder me for my pants * 'free' police force who are respected by the society, rarely need to resort to lethal force, and don't get to keep the money from traffic tickets and impounded property * 'free' elections, with no armed mobs demanding the vote to be changed to their desires * 'free' air conditioning, just open a window (also there's no need to pay for sunblock, you won't need it)

jperras 6y ago

> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes.

fapi1974 6y ago
Yes.
peterburkimsher 6y ago
Yes, because I'd rather live in a society where everyone has a decent education, instead of segregating the population based on who can pay to become smarter.
- gitgud 6y ago
  Perfectly sums up my feelings. Sidenote: I would have the internet would have made paying for education obsolete... But it seems information and education are not equivalent...

6177c40f 6y ago

Would you not be saving (or at least not spending more) money by not having to pay for your healthcare needs. Besides the fact that if the rents really are cheap, then that would also be a huge savings for a lot of people.

distances 6y ago
Rents are not cheap, except maybe if compared to SF.

eepp 6y ago

> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes.

tbrake 6y ago

Ah yes, a healthier, better educated populace - the historic marker of a society in decline.

voidmain0001 6y ago
Thank you for that belly laugh!

socialdemocrat 6y ago

It is not like taxes disappear into a black hole never to be seen. Most of that money comes back to you in the form of services Americans would have to pay for anyway. What matters is what the taxes give you. A lot of American taxes don’t give people much of anything. Maintaining the worlds largest prison population is expensive but what exactly does that give the Average American? Worlds largest military also sucks up tax dollars but don’t give any benefits back. Finnish taxes give you education, health care, child care, sick leave, vacation, job retraining, great public transport and many other thing directly improving your quality of life.

Devils-Avocado 6y ago
In Europe those services pay for a huge welfare and pension system, and healthcare which is mostly used by the elderly. Very little benefit will be received by a working-age expat.
- Teever 6y ago
  That's a great generalization about the entire continent of Europe but do you have any specific issues with how taxes in Finland are used?
- purerandomness 6y ago
  As a working-age expat, you might still have an ambulance called after an accident or a drug overdose after partying, having cancer surgery, a flu shot, a pregnancy or an IVF, all for free.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    They have ambulances in the US too. Also, isn't Finland a country where you pay health insurance? If that is free, a lot of things in the US suddenly are free as well.
    - purerandomness 6y ago
      > They have ambulances in the US too. We were talking about costs. In the US, calling an ambulance is not guaranteed to be free. OP claimed that as a young, healthy expat, you don't benefit from a system where your tax payments finance health care. I showed examples where a young, healthy expat directy benefits from this system, by having medical emergencies that would potentially bankrupt you in the US. Not sure I followed your point here.

donkey-hotei 6y ago

Yes.

sterlind 6y ago

Yeah, that sounds like a good trade to me. Having free education and free healthcare means I can take risks and join a start-up or get another degree, rather than worrying about losing my coverage and getting sick from my chronic illness. Also I love the sound of the language, and would like to learn it, and the cold never bothered me anyway.

tipiirai 6y ago

I live in Helsinki. People here are generally happy to pay the taxes to get all the good stuff from the goverment. I would personally support higher tax levels.

dkdk8283 6y ago
Personally I’m against higher tax: I’ve paid a lot in and gotten very little out.
- tipiirai 6y ago
  In Finland?
  - shitgoose 6y ago
    anywhere
stevekemp 6y ago
I moved to Helsinki from Edinburgh, my taxes are higher here in Finland than they were in Scotland but I don't complain. The public transport, the child-friendly facilities, and similar things make me "happy" to pay. Lovely city and I regret nothing about my time here.

trynewideas 6y ago

> Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. Cancer already takes all of it here, tyvm, so I'd gladly like to see half of it back.

markdown 6y ago

> Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. All that disposable income but no vacation time to spend it.

NeutronStar 6y ago
The worse is his "disposable income" includes having to pay for health insurance which is covered by our "high taxes". Even worse is he's still gonna have to pay for his healthcare as his insurance won't cover everything. They always forget that one.
conanbatt 6y ago
You can take all the vacations you want if you have money
cpach 6y ago
It used to be that tech employees in the US had very few vacation days compared to people in Europe. However, AFAICT now the FAANG companies seem to offer more vacation days and it seems to get closer to what is typical for Europe.

jjav 6y ago

> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? No brainer, absolutely worth it. Even making good money in Silicon Valley I'm perpetually afraid of medical bankruptcy if something were to happen. And the cost of education here takes another 15% off my salary for schools far lower quality than in Finland.

TheGrim-888 6y ago
If you're afraid of an unexpected large financial burden, I have news for you, there's a product you can buy that limits the unexpected burden in return for small regular payments, it's called insurance! If you're afraid of your vehicle being unexpectedly totaled, you can insure it! Similarly, you can buy health insurance to insure you against the scenario you're so worried about. It's an unheard of idea, I know. And even better, the extra 30+% of your paycheck that you don't have to pay in tax, you can use that to pay for your health insurance.
ciarannolan 6y ago
You're "making good money in Silicon Valley" and don't have health insurance? Are you freelancing and choosing not to purchase insurance?
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  The overwhelming majority of Americans who experience medical bankruptcy have health insurance.
- misterpigs 6y ago
  You're assuming that whatever you're stricken with leaves you in good enough health to continue working.
  - refurb 6y ago
    But that’s true in Canada as well. The medical expenses might not bankrupt you, but not being able to work will. https://bankruptcy-canada.com/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy/ https://bankruptcy-canada.com/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptc...

artursilva 6y ago

I mean if you do the math on it, it's a lower upfront cost for everyone with insurance that you won't be bankrupted by chance, thus creating more stable more incremental wealth. So it depends, but as a general policy it's far more sensible to have stability than not. The question should be whether we could lower those costs (taxes) and still have the free education and free healthcare, and if so what are the compromises to be made in order to do that. Remember it's not a zero sum game, which means a nation can start to produce wealth or save on costs, bringing up efficiency and lowering the required taxes per person to deliver the same goods and service. The real problem is corruption, and inefficiencies.

ksdale 6y ago

If these numbers are correct, the payroll taxes total about 13% higher than American payroll taxes, but if you add in what Americans pay for the health insurance that’s presumably included in one of these taxes, it’s probably fairly similar. 20-30% is a very normal marginal American tax rate, and the VAT is high (looks like it may be lower for certain things), but not ridiculous compared to a lot of American state income taxes (Since the income tax is on income and not just consumption). I’m skeptical of a halving of disposable income, especially for someone moving from somewhere like California.

Sharlin 6y ago
> (looks like it may be lower for certain things) Namely, 14% for food (both groceries and restaurant, excl. alcohol), 10% for books, exercise services like gyms, culture/entertainment tickets, hotel accommodation, public transit, and over-the-counter drugs (prescription drugs are heavily subsidized by the state).
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  14% for food is quite high, but I've personally lived in two cities with a 10.25% sales tax (Chicago & Santa Monica); so that's not far out of line with at least some American cities.

todsul 6y ago

There are certainly downsides to living in Finland, but you picked a poor comparison in taxes. Taxes in the US are NOT low. Income tax is only one of many taxes in the US. In some states/cities, your property tax can exceed income tax. My state has extremely high taxes on cars too. It all adds up to a lot of money and a relatively high total tax rate. I wouldn't be surprised it a significant number of people in the US have a higher total tax rate than the Finnish average. Of course you can choose low-tax states, but the US as a whole certainly isn't some sort of tax haven.

usr1106 6y ago
Not an expert an the area, but from what I read the US is a tax heaven for the super rich, Finland certainly is not. Progressive tax rates are high. There are creative ways to get your (should I say their?) income avoiding progression, then it's flat 30%. Both are taxing the normal mortals, Finland probably slightly higher.

briffle 6y ago

I pay federal and state income tax, plus my employer pays payroll taxes, plus property tax. My state has no sales tax, but pretty high property tax. Plus, my employer and I pay about $1800 a month for healthcare, plus a few hundred a month in student loans. My disposable american income is probably much less..

fogihujy 6y ago

> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? For me? Yes. Without the shadow of a doubt. I'd stay out of Helsinki, though. Too many people! :D

hyeomans 6y ago

Yes. Come and live in a banana republic and it will be worth it.

Jommi 6y ago

As an engineer you're already going to be making enough money to be comfortable in Finland for the rest of your life. In addition to that, there is no stress from minmaxing your whole life like in USA. Real life isn't diablo, you're supposed to enjoy it. There's a reason Finland tops satisfaction/happiness charts every single time. I think it says a lot about the person on how they value these decisions

elviejo 6y ago

Hell yes!! In other posts people are complaining about the homeless people living in SF... you know how you avoid homeless persons?? by having taxes paid healthcare (there is no free), taxes paid education, taxes paid home support.

ghufran_syed 6y ago
living in a place too cold to survive on the street probably makes a difference too...

jrockway 6y ago

I am not sure that this is much worse than the US. The government gets about 44% of what it costs to employ me (that is, I'm including taxes that the employer pays the government, but come before the negotiated salary, if that makes any sense). I then pay about 9% tax on everything I buy (8.875% technically). This doesn't include any healthcare, housing, food, or savings for my retirement. The cost of having a society is high. The big difference between Europe and the US is that there is some sort of safety net if you become unable to work. Here, you get a cardboard box under the highway and a stern lecture to try harder next time from a 104-year-old politician that's never had a real job in their life. It's good when it's good, but it can get bad fast.

usr1106 6y ago

Having lived in several European countries I'd say Finland has probably one of the weaker health care systems. * every legal resident has access to basic health care in their own municipality. A visit costs around 30 euros, max 700 euros a year (Which is a lot compared to Germany, cheap compared to the US). Queues can be long, several weeks. Negotiation skills help, but as a foreigner you might get blocked completely as a trouble maker if you think to negotiate in English * nearly everybody with a full employment contract has basic health care coverage by their employer at a private provider. Normally you get an appointment the next day or so and you pay absolutely nothing. So most employed people just skip their "free" public health care, because it is worse. Yes, the employement health care is subsidized by tax money (although they are cutting back). This is not mandatory, so the details especially for mor expensive treatments and examinations vary a bit. When your employer stops paying you need to fall back to public service or pay yourself. * for kids around 50% have private insurance to avoid the queing at the public service * medicines are expensive compared to Germany, but cheap compared to market prices. Well, basically they are covered by the public health insurance, but the compensation is far from 100%, own contribution max 600 euros a year. * hospital care is 50 euros a day, max 700 a year. There can be some queues, but for acute cases there should be no problem. (Non-acute cases can be a pain.) In real serious cases the 1500 or so Euros you pay a year is of course cheap compared to complete bankruptcy or even remaining without good treatment. Being relatively healthy paying several 100 Euros a year is more than you would pay in many European countries with a public health insurance systems.

refurb 6y ago
Thanks for sharing these details. It’s always interesting to read what the system is like on a day to day basis versus talking about “universal care” as if every system is identical.
deanclatworthy 6y ago
This is very accurate and has been my experience too. Public has been great when acute (broken limbs) and frustratingly slow with chronic but dehabilitating conditions.
zooweemama 6y ago

ZeteticElench 6y ago

You sound like you voted for Trump.

kaitai 6y ago

Hey, when I was paying $14k/year for childcare... yep. Now I'm only paying like $8k/yr for childcare. If I had two-three kids, Finland would be an easy financial win. And just think about college there! My sib went there for grad school because of the finances & stayed. Thinking about following.

hestefisk 6y ago

I’d take higher taxes and welfare state over Trump and American private health payer system any day.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

disabled 6y ago

> Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes. The taxes are worth it, for a stable society. This US 2020 election: An Associated Press analysis reveals that in 376 counties with the highest number of new cases per capita, the overwhelming majority — 93% of those counties — went for Trump, a rate above other less severely hit areas.: https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus-updates-20201105-zmkrvcttqrerhnemp5xk7owo4m-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus... 2016 US election (there are multiple studies on it but there was one from Boston University public health that was the most revealing): Study: Communities Most Affected By Opioid Epidemic Also Voted For Trump: https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505965420/study-communities-most-affected-by-opioid-epidemic-also-voted-for-trump https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505965420/study-communities-m... I am a dual US|Croatian (European Union) citizen. I happily pay Croatian taxes, just for the stability. I don’t have to worry about amassing a huge amount of savings for retirement as an EU citizen and I can work/live/retire in 30+ countries. (By the way, if you save for retirement, in the millions range, it may not pay for your cancer or rare disease treatment, even if covered by insurance, due to Medicare Part D catastrophic coverage level. I know this because my out-of-pocket responsibility for my blood product costs $50,000+/year under Medicare Part D, under catastrophic coverage level. 7% of the general population has some sort of a rare disease and obviously cancer is a common diagnosis) > Also a lot of cold and darkness. Well, I’m from Seattle and I have to say, you eventually get used to the dreariness, cold, and darkness.

ponker 6y ago

I doubt the co-founder of Webflow gives a crap.

enahs-sf 6y ago

Username checks out.

quickthrower2 6y ago

I don't see this as a relocation opportunity. It sounds like a travel opportunity. I think digital nomads will go for this, then that's 90 days of those tax levels, which makes no difference as they are optimising for experience not income (otherwise they'd stay working onsite for a FAANG)

theshrike79 6y ago

4-5 weeks paid vacation. No "sick days" to keep track of, if you're sick you still get paid. It's only dark half the year, the other half is all light all the time.

speedgoose 6y ago

Yes, definitely. If you only think about you and your family, in this system you can also be sure that your children will have access to free education and free health care, and your grandchildren too. It's also nice to live in a society where everyone has access to free education and free healthcare. The inequalities are not as big and it benefits you indirectly.

msh 6y ago

Why do you put free in quotes? Weather its wort it is still a personal question, but my education was certainly free including my masters degree (I even got paid a stipend to study like everyone else).

params 6y ago

That's funny, because when viewing those numbers from a Swedish perspective they're not that controversive or high. I would go so far and say that they're below medium, some of them reaching low. I would get to keep so much more of my salary in Finland, since my income tax is at around 40% here in Sweden. Add to that all the other kreeping taxes added over time. I love Sweden tho, no tax can change that ;)

jusssi 6y ago

Your list has some inaccuracies and omissions. There are also quite significant 14% (e.g. groceries, restaurants) and 10% (some specific services) VAT categories. Most of employer payroll "tax" (~18%) and employee payroll "tax" (8.4%) is actually mandatory pension fund payments and counts toward your accumulated pension. Many people choose to pay the 1% church tax, even though it is entirely optional (most of those people participate in any church stuff only for weddings and funerals). We also pay ridiculously high taxes for cars and fuel, tobacco and alcohol. Additional things we get for our taxes: * 'free' defense against our eastern neighbor (we only have to pay with our blood, if they ever decide to try again) * 'free' mental health care and basic necessities for the crazies in the subway, so I don't have to be their therapist and they're slightly less likely to murder me for my pants * 'free' police force who are respected by the society, rarely need to resort to lethal force, and don't get to keep the money from traffic tickets and impounded property * 'free' elections, with no armed mobs demanding the vote to be changed to their desires * 'free' air conditioning, just open a window (also there's no need to pay for sunblock, you won't need it)