6 ms·

Widespread flex gap support will probably eliminate 95% of grid usage in my apps today: https://caniuse.com/flexbox-gap https://caniuse.com/flexbox-gap And wha

by ss3000 6y ago

Widespread flex gap support will probably eliminate 95% of grid usage in my apps today: https://caniuse.com/flexbox-gap https://caniuse.com/flexbox-gap And what a surprise, it's just Safari holding us back again. =_=

Dahoon 6y ago
The new IE.
- russelg 6y ago
  Very disingenuous of you. IE was a trashfire because it refused to do anything in a standard way, meaning it had to be specially catered for. Safari is slow to follow the standards but at least its compliant. A engine that isn't Chrome is very essential for keeping the web open, especially since Firefox user share keeps going down.
  - asddubs 6y ago
    ie was also a trashfire because of the release/update model, holding the entire web back because it was so far behind standards (ie6 was actually ahead of its time on release, but then didn't get updated for ages). safari, especially on ios where you can't even get any other browser engines, and the safari version is tied to the operating system version, follows that same model with the same consequences. not as painful these days, since the web has come a long way already, but you can definitely see the parallels
    - keeganpoppen 6y ago
      unsure what part of this is cause for downvoting-- it is absolutely correct. it's not even invalidating other peoples' observations. people are weird (or ignorant (or both))... edit: oh and i guess now that i upvoted it it's not grey anymore xD
  - schwartzworld 6y ago
    Safari has absolutely ignored standards when it suits apple. That's why, for example, you can't rely on PWAs on Apple products.
  - SiVal 6y ago
    slow to follow the standards Safari is not only slow to follow the standards, it is slow to advance the standards. I'd be more likely to believe the spin that Apple just wants to make sure things are done well on the web if it appeared that they were trying as hard to add good, new capabilities to the web platform as they are to add good, new capabilities to iOS. A engine that isn't Chrome is very essential for keeping the web open Also essential is for the open web to be competitive with closed alternatives, or the fact that it's open will matter less and less. Apple is quite willing to provide competition for Chrome. It does it with iOS.
    - greggman3 6y ago
      Apple is only able to do this because of the monopoly of browser engines for 1.5 billion iOS devices. If they allowed (or were forced to allow) other browser engines then likely a large number of users would switch to another browser, forcing Apple to compete for features.
      - manigandham 6y ago
        What's that say about the quality of Safari then?
    - rimliu 6y ago
      How quickly people forget who brought canvas, CSS animations, etc.
  - fenomas 6y ago
    A browser engine that's primarily used on platforms where it's mandatory, and cannot be uninstalled or replaced, is "very essential for keeping the web open"?
  - manigandham 6y ago
    IE actually created many of the standards we take for granted like XMLHttpRequest. [1] It was the innovator for a long time until priorities changed and the IE team was disbanded leading to the stagnation. Microsoft definitely takes the blame in keeping it poor for so long but this situation is nothing like Safari which has refused to implement standards that already exist, as well as messing with others in unintuitive ways. 1. https://schepp.dev/posts/today-the-trident-era-ends/ https://schepp.dev/posts/today-the-trident-era-ends/
  - realusername 6y ago
    Safari has a lot of issues outside of just being behind the standards. I've encountered background and z-index jank, form issues, SVG issues and even mouse event issues. If you are a web developer, there's a good chance your codebase has Safari bugfixes.
- earthboundkid 6y ago
  You mean the common JS environment that doesn’t support fetch, Node?
- artificial 6y ago
  Wouldn’t that be Chrome? The ubiquity leads to lazy developers testing only on it. Maybe some fancy SVGs saying “Best viewed on Chrome!” To really rub it in :)
  - greggman3 6y ago
    No, the definition of "the new IE" is to not support the latest features. Pick some other phrase for "most popular"
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - keeganpoppen 6y ago
      he is 100% right that IE's ubiquity is what caused the problem to begin with. well, that and microsoft getting arrogant because of it.
    - tannhaeuser 6y ago
      Yeah "web standards" my ass - with WHATWG 100% just being Chrome devs, and W3C a pay-as-you-go wannabe "standardization body" financed by Google (and long out of the game of doing anything meaningful except CSS) so-called web standards are more of a monopolization and extortion instrument than anything else. Web heads seriously need to wake up rather than making it ever more complicated.
    - lucideer 6y ago
      The definition of "the new IE" is not not supporting the latest features (IE had plenty of "new" features—see e.g. filters, VML, XMLHttpRequest). The issue with IE was that it supported it's own proprietary features without consultation nor coordination with competitors. Something it was only able to do due to its market monopoly. Yes, Chrome does this too. It's slightly better in that it tends to submit them to standards bodies after implementing them, but most of the time that's WHATWG which is a much less democratic body than others, and mostly Google-led. Either way Chrome's market monopoly leave competitors with little choice in the standards process.
  - 6y ago
- ehnto 6y ago
  Firefox and Chrome still don't agree on how tables should work.
desert_boi 6y ago
Chrome got in in May finally...Firefox has had it for years. One thing I really missed in Chrome and Safari.
gkilmain 6y ago
Awesome - didn't know this was a thing.
matthewmacleod 6y ago
In fairness, this feature was only released in Chrome a couple of months ago, and has in the past week been merged into WebKit: https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/267829/webkit https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/267829/webkit
- ss3000 6y ago
  Fair enough, I guess both Chrome and Safari were holding us back until a few months ago haha. Really ecstatic to see that it's going to be in Safari soon though! Thank you so much for sharing! Really made my day. This is why I love Hacker News.

by ss3000 6y ago

Dahoon 6y ago

The new IE.

russelg 6y ago
Very disingenuous of you. IE was a trashfire because it refused to do anything in a standard way, meaning it had to be specially catered for. Safari is slow to follow the standards but at least its compliant. A engine that isn't Chrome is very essential for keeping the web open, especially since Firefox user share keeps going down.
- asddubs 6y ago
  ie was also a trashfire because of the release/update model, holding the entire web back because it was so far behind standards (ie6 was actually ahead of its time on release, but then didn't get updated for ages). safari, especially on ios where you can't even get any other browser engines, and the safari version is tied to the operating system version, follows that same model with the same consequences. not as painful these days, since the web has come a long way already, but you can definitely see the parallels
  - keeganpoppen 6y ago
    unsure what part of this is cause for downvoting-- it is absolutely correct. it's not even invalidating other peoples' observations. people are weird (or ignorant (or both))... edit: oh and i guess now that i upvoted it it's not grey anymore xD
- schwartzworld 6y ago
  Safari has absolutely ignored standards when it suits apple. That's why, for example, you can't rely on PWAs on Apple products.
- SiVal 6y ago
  slow to follow the standards Safari is not only slow to follow the standards, it is slow to advance the standards. I'd be more likely to believe the spin that Apple just wants to make sure things are done well on the web if it appeared that they were trying as hard to add good, new capabilities to the web platform as they are to add good, new capabilities to iOS. A engine that isn't Chrome is very essential for keeping the web open Also essential is for the open web to be competitive with closed alternatives, or the fact that it's open will matter less and less. Apple is quite willing to provide competition for Chrome. It does it with iOS.
  - greggman3 6y ago
    Apple is only able to do this because of the monopoly of browser engines for 1.5 billion iOS devices. If they allowed (or were forced to allow) other browser engines then likely a large number of users would switch to another browser, forcing Apple to compete for features.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      What's that say about the quality of Safari then?
  - rimliu 6y ago
    How quickly people forget who brought canvas, CSS animations, etc.
- fenomas 6y ago
  A browser engine that's primarily used on platforms where it's mandatory, and cannot be uninstalled or replaced, is "very essential for keeping the web open"?
- manigandham 6y ago
  IE actually created many of the standards we take for granted like XMLHttpRequest. [1] It was the innovator for a long time until priorities changed and the IE team was disbanded leading to the stagnation. Microsoft definitely takes the blame in keeping it poor for so long but this situation is nothing like Safari which has refused to implement standards that already exist, as well as messing with others in unintuitive ways. 1. https://schepp.dev/posts/today-the-trident-era-ends/ https://schepp.dev/posts/today-the-trident-era-ends/
- realusername 6y ago
  Safari has a lot of issues outside of just being behind the standards. I've encountered background and z-index jank, form issues, SVG issues and even mouse event issues. If you are a web developer, there's a good chance your codebase has Safari bugfixes.
earthboundkid 6y ago
You mean the common JS environment that doesn’t support fetch, Node?
artificial 6y ago
Wouldn’t that be Chrome? The ubiquity leads to lazy developers testing only on it. Maybe some fancy SVGs saying “Best viewed on Chrome!” To really rub it in :)
- greggman3 6y ago
  No, the definition of "the new IE" is to not support the latest features. Pick some other phrase for "most popular"
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - keeganpoppen 6y ago
    he is 100% right that IE's ubiquity is what caused the problem to begin with. well, that and microsoft getting arrogant because of it.
  - tannhaeuser 6y ago
    Yeah "web standards" my ass - with WHATWG 100% just being Chrome devs, and W3C a pay-as-you-go wannabe "standardization body" financed by Google (and long out of the game of doing anything meaningful except CSS) so-called web standards are more of a monopolization and extortion instrument than anything else. Web heads seriously need to wake up rather than making it ever more complicated.
  - lucideer 6y ago
    The definition of "the new IE" is not not supporting the latest features (IE had plenty of "new" features—see e.g. filters, VML, XMLHttpRequest). The issue with IE was that it supported it's own proprietary features without consultation nor coordination with competitors. Something it was only able to do due to its market monopoly. Yes, Chrome does this too. It's slightly better in that it tends to submit them to standards bodies after implementing them, but most of the time that's WHATWG which is a much less democratic body than others, and mostly Google-led. Either way Chrome's market monopoly leave competitors with little choice in the standards process.
- 6y ago
ehnto 6y ago
Firefox and Chrome still don't agree on how tables should work.

desert_boi 6y ago

Chrome got in in May finally...Firefox has had it for years. One thing I really missed in Chrome and Safari.

gkilmain 6y ago

Awesome - didn't know this was a thing.

matthewmacleod 6y ago

In fairness, this feature was only released in Chrome a couple of months ago, and has in the past week been merged into WebKit: https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/267829/webkit https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/267829/webkit

ss3000 6y ago
Fair enough, I guess both Chrome and Safari were holding us back until a few months ago haha. Really ecstatic to see that it's going to be in Safari soon though! Thank you so much for sharing! Really made my day. This is why I love Hacker News.