5 ms·

Could it be that just both, vitamin D deficiency and covid-19 risk, are much higher for people that stay inside most of the day (e.g. have office jobs)? Vitamin

by ralala 6y ago

Could it be that just both, vitamin D deficiency and covid-19 risk, are much higher for people that stay inside most of the day (e.g. have office jobs)? Vitamin D is created from sunlight. Covid-19 is transmitted by aerosols. Is there additional evidence that Vitamin D supplements may help or do we just know about the correlation?

cwwc 6y ago
Brilliant thought, though I hope it is untrue.
- kebman 6y ago
  Well, there's this article, also posted earlier on HN: https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-3-the-evidence?postId=5f4e8bf673d853002ded6cd3&fbclid=IwAR20eDNcj1qsa6lkPCkJTYDV4ql0FEPSNiASbZ-j9xyD8RC8lot5vcSqsKg https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-3-the-evidence... My personal experience with Cod Liver Oil (usually taken in Norway due to its high contents of Vitamin D) is that it really helps against dry lips. But you get a rather fishy breath from it...
  - jusssi 6y ago
    You can get it in capsules. That should solve any taste and smell problems.
    - ComputerGuru 6y ago
      It depends. Some people still find them to be too fishy, but I’ve heard storing the plastic pill bottle in the freezer and downing them frozen can further mitigate the fishiness and reduce fishy reflux.
acqq 6y ago
The study from the title is indeed just a correlation, from the abstract: "This study used a retrospective, observational analysis of deidentified tests performed at a national clinical laboratory." Whenever you see a "retrospective, observational" related to anything having to do with medicine or biology, consider that the experts seldom see that as a proof of anything, but only a hint to a possible hypothesis that could be investigated in some other way (and then confirmed or rejected). As another example that correlation doesn't mean causation, even if the paper is published about the correlation, see: https://youtu.be/UHDi6tNMHyU?t=2780 https://youtu.be/UHDi6tNMHyU?t=2780 That "bald men and Covid-19" study did not control for age (where the older people are more probable to be both more bald and have worse outcome, making correlation not saying much when that is not controlled for), this study seems didn't control for "staying inside most of the day" or even "inside with more people" etc. Good catch.
navi0 6y ago
This recently published study suggests vitD supplements alone provide some protection, even for acute cases. It’s a small sample population (n=75) and a pre-print, but it looks convincing to me (non-scientist, non-medical professional): “Of 50 patients treated with calcifediol, one required admission to the ICU (2%), while of 26 untreated patients, 13 required admission... Of the patients treated with calcifediol, none died, and all were discharged, without complications. The 13 patients not treated with calcifediol, who were not admitted to the ICU, were discharged. Of the 13 patients admitted to the ICU, two died and the remaining 11 were discharged.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076020302764 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096007602... Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24390451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24390451
- acqq 6y ago
  That link has only one comment. Actual discussion with 390 comments is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366006 and my comment there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366933 In short, my problem with that paper is: "The whole paper contains neither raw data nor any graphs and only means and standard deviations" Given small number of people in the study, it's not clear that there aren't some problems that aren't visible when reporting the means which would be obvious when looking at the actual data. Even the randomized studies aren't "true" automatically: the process of randomization can have issues itself, and that should be also possible to check.
spurgu 6y ago
I know very little about nutrition but have wondered whether taking supplements actually help, or if it's the process that _creates_ those vitamins that's actually important/healthy. Like in your example, being exposed to sunlight starts a process in our body that's healthy for our bodies, and vitamin D is just a by-product... and taking it as supplements wouldn't really do anything as we're missing the process. As I said I have no idea what I'm talking about.
- rossdavidh 6y ago
  It could easily be some of both, in which case a supplement is not necessarily worthless, but not as good as sunlight (and the exercise and stress reduction that often goes with it).
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > if it's the process that _creates_ those vitamins that's actually important/healthy. By definition, vitamins are substances needed by an organism that it can't create itself, and must be obtained in its diet.
  - jwilk 6y ago
    Vitamin D is technically not a vitamin: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/2/491S/4649916#111229508 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/2/491S/4649916#1112...
  - 0_____0 6y ago
    vit D is an exception here, iirc it's the only 'vitamin' that doesn't fit those criteria
  - dehrmann 6y ago
    Vitamin D is arguably not a vitamin because we produce it when exposed to sunlight and it's actually a hormone. I guess that makes sunlight the vitamin.
scythe 6y ago
>Is there additional evidence that Vitamin D supplements may help or do we just know about the correlation? Yes. COVID-19 is known to affect the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone signalling cascade. Vitamin D is also known to be involved in this signalling. That's why speculation about vitamin D is more than just statistical hokum. There is the chance of an error, but there is also a clear indicator for an underlying mechanism here.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
takeda 6y ago
I thought so too, but looks like there's difference even among kids. Kids with darker skin are more affected than their peers with lighter skin.
TheRealPomax 6y ago
Could? Sure. But let's not start second guessing the science until after reading the full publication, especialy the part where the correlation is observed across all latitudes, which gives a fairly solid spread of sunlight exposure.

by ralala 6y ago

cwwc 6y ago

Brilliant thought, though I hope it is untrue.

kebman 6y ago
Well, there's this article, also posted earlier on HN: https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-3-the-evidence?postId=5f4e8bf673d853002ded6cd3&fbclid=IwAR20eDNcj1qsa6lkPCkJTYDV4ql0FEPSNiASbZ-j9xyD8RC8lot5vcSqsKg https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-3-the-evidence... My personal experience with Cod Liver Oil (usually taken in Norway due to its high contents of Vitamin D) is that it really helps against dry lips. But you get a rather fishy breath from it...
- jusssi 6y ago
  You can get it in capsules. That should solve any taste and smell problems.
  - ComputerGuru 6y ago
    It depends. Some people still find them to be too fishy, but I’ve heard storing the plastic pill bottle in the freezer and downing them frozen can further mitigate the fishiness and reduce fishy reflux.

acqq 6y ago

The study from the title is indeed just a correlation, from the abstract: "This study used a retrospective, observational analysis of deidentified tests performed at a national clinical laboratory." Whenever you see a "retrospective, observational" related to anything having to do with medicine or biology, consider that the experts seldom see that as a proof of anything, but only a hint to a possible hypothesis that could be investigated in some other way (and then confirmed or rejected). As another example that correlation doesn't mean causation, even if the paper is published about the correlation, see: https://youtu.be/UHDi6tNMHyU?t=2780 https://youtu.be/UHDi6tNMHyU?t=2780 That "bald men and Covid-19" study did not control for age (where the older people are more probable to be both more bald and have worse outcome, making correlation not saying much when that is not controlled for), this study seems didn't control for "staying inside most of the day" or even "inside with more people" etc. Good catch.

navi0 6y ago

This recently published study suggests vitD supplements alone provide some protection, even for acute cases. It’s a small sample population (n=75) and a pre-print, but it looks convincing to me (non-scientist, non-medical professional): “Of 50 patients treated with calcifediol, one required admission to the ICU (2%), while of 26 untreated patients, 13 required admission... Of the patients treated with calcifediol, none died, and all were discharged, without complications. The 13 patients not treated with calcifediol, who were not admitted to the ICU, were discharged. Of the 13 patients admitted to the ICU, two died and the remaining 11 were discharged.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076020302764 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096007602... Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24390451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24390451

acqq 6y ago
That link has only one comment. Actual discussion with 390 comments is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366006 and my comment there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24366933 In short, my problem with that paper is: "The whole paper contains neither raw data nor any graphs and only means and standard deviations" Given small number of people in the study, it's not clear that there aren't some problems that aren't visible when reporting the means which would be obvious when looking at the actual data. Even the randomized studies aren't "true" automatically: the process of randomization can have issues itself, and that should be also possible to check.

spurgu 6y ago

I know very little about nutrition but have wondered whether taking supplements actually help, or if it's the process that _creates_ those vitamins that's actually important/healthy. Like in your example, being exposed to sunlight starts a process in our body that's healthy for our bodies, and vitamin D is just a by-product... and taking it as supplements wouldn't really do anything as we're missing the process. As I said I have no idea what I'm talking about.

rossdavidh 6y ago
It could easily be some of both, in which case a supplement is not necessarily worthless, but not as good as sunlight (and the exercise and stress reduction that often goes with it).
heavyset_go 6y ago
> if it's the process that _creates_ those vitamins that's actually important/healthy. By definition, vitamins are substances needed by an organism that it can't create itself, and must be obtained in its diet.
- jwilk 6y ago
  Vitamin D is technically not a vitamin: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/2/491S/4649916#111229508 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/2/491S/4649916#1112...
- 0_____0 6y ago
  vit D is an exception here, iirc it's the only 'vitamin' that doesn't fit those criteria
- dehrmann 6y ago
  Vitamin D is arguably not a vitamin because we produce it when exposed to sunlight and it's actually a hormone. I guess that makes sunlight the vitamin.

scythe 6y ago

>Is there additional evidence that Vitamin D supplements may help or do we just know about the correlation? Yes. COVID-19 is known to affect the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone signalling cascade. Vitamin D is also known to be involved in this signalling. That's why speculation about vitamin D is more than just statistical hokum. There is the chance of an error, but there is also a clear indicator for an underlying mechanism here.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

takeda 6y ago

I thought so too, but looks like there's difference even among kids. Kids with darker skin are more affected than their peers with lighter skin.

TheRealPomax 6y ago

Could? Sure. But let's not start second guessing the science until after reading the full publication, especialy the part where the correlation is observed across all latitudes, which gives a fairly solid spread of sunlight exposure.