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To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I d

by Yc4win 6y ago

To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.

wittyreference 6y ago
> powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" You’re waxing hyperbolic. It’s a sedative drug used in normal human clinical practice, and in many settings is preferable because it has -fewer- risks of complications than other sedatives. And while I’m highly critical of it’s being used without strict medical protocol, I’ve worked psych ED enough to understand that there are occasionally absolutely, 100% ridiculously “agitated” patients that are going to have to be brought in, and will not do so without large amounts of physical force - something that is also prone to unfortunate complications.
- tmp538394722 6y ago
  Elijah McClain was not “ridiculously agitated”. The video shows that police escalated every chance they got. After receiving a phone call of a “suspicious person” they went from in their car to hands on Elijah in less than 10s. In a matter of minutes Elijah was on the ground surrounded by a dozen officers. They’re saying “was he suspected of anything”, “why are we here”? They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack. Ridiculously agitated, my foot. They (Police) create the situation, then they (Police) prescribe ketamine. These are not the people who should be making these calls. No one should be allowed to have this kind of latitude when dealing with another human.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    They're plain fucking murderers and should rot in jail. That is all about it. It is just too bad that the land of free telling every other country how to behave does not seem to give a flying fuck about the egregious behavior of their own agents. Well not unless the case gets much publicity on FB and the likes.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    > They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack. And this, for the benefit of folks here who still want to treat these incidents as individual aberrations, is what BLM is about. Sure, police can be good or bad, sometimes make mistakes, etc... But POLICING, as it is practiced in this country, is a horrifying disaster. And at this point it seems almost completely beyond rescue. We need new cops, new practices, new laws, new equipment, new training. I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that.
    - hnlurker 6y ago
      This, oh and green new deal, oh and palestine, oh and destroy nuke family, oh and..... please.
    - gwright 6y ago
      > I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that. You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't really interested in. I don't agree with everything but the ideas outlined here https://www.joincampaignzero.org https://www.joincampaignzero.org are a good start. Some communities are in much worse situation than others and I think new leadership is urgently needed in many of these places (i.e., vote for change). The rhetoric that you are using is supremely dangerous. Look what is going on in Portland as the police and local political leadership have withdrawn from the basic goal of public safety and ensuring a peaceful, civil community. It is devolving into warring tribes. It is actually astonishing to me that it hasn't escalated further than it has but I see that this weekend things have changed a bit as some new tribes arrived resulting in brawls/skirmishes/fighting between the tribes as opposed to with police. To advocate or even suggest that policing, as a system, is irredeemably flawed and can't be reformed is to actively invite in chaos and civil unrest. Instead of a civil police force you will end up with an ad-hoc collection of private security, thugs, violent gangs, protection rackets, and so on. Due process will not exist and whatever problems you attribute to the current system will be much, much worse in this new "system".
      - deleted 6y ago
  - ddingus 6y ago
    The reason they do that is the policing doctrine changed. Escalation of force to compliance. They are literally trained to do that.
microcolonel 6y ago
The fact that ketamine is also used by veterinarians is unremarkable. Almost every common human antibiotic is also used for fish; are broad-spectrum antibiotics “fish drugs”? Ketamine is routinely used by paramedics, I think more routinely in Western Europe than in North America. The real question is whether it is appropriate for police to request the use of sedatives while effecting an arrest; and you could argue in some cases that it is entirely appropriate even if your only priority is the wellbeing of the arrestee.
quickthrowman 6y ago
> To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. I used to drink. Heavily. Enough where I would lose control and neighbors would call 911 because they were concerned. I was removed from my home and handcuffed and brought to the ER more than once. A couple times I went smoothly, but a few times I fought back, hard. One time I was told it took 5 people to subdue me and I kicked an ambulance driver in the head. Another time I fought so hard against the handcuffs that I have permanent nerve damage in my right wrist. I also have shoulder problems that may have stemmed from being restrained by police. I would’ve rather been ketamined than kick an ambulance driver in the head or have nerve/physical damage to my body. If you’ve never completely lost control of yourself and fought against multiple people, you have no idea what they’re dealing with. Once I got to the ER, they dosed me with haloperidol anyways shrug Might as well have been ketamine when I was being detained. I hate cops, but I think ketamine could potentially help in some situations where someone has lost their goddamn mind and is fighting back hard. Edit: This all happened in the 3rd Precinct of Minneapolis, famous for murdering George Floyd
Natsu 6y ago
Ketamine is one of the most used human sedatives. It's also available by prescription (esketamine) and I know someone who used it under medical supervision. This use is also medical, to try to help calm people who have major drug overdoses and save their lives. As with all things medical, sometimes things go wrong. It's not clear to me that the ketamine had anything to do with the death, nor does the article even make that case. Cardiac arrest is the literal opposite of what one would expect of someone dying of too much ketamine. Instead, it talks about police training... even though medical professionals are the ones who inject this on site. There's a reasonable call for medical standards and study, but not a whole lot else.
fareesh 6y ago
Policemen do one of the toughest jobs in society, especially in places where crime is high. Society owes them a great debt for enforcing the law because there are some hard criminals out there who would run amok if a weak and ineffective police force were the norm. Armchair criticism of the police with zero consideration for their point of view is not helpful to anyone, most of all victims of crimes.
- hnlurker 6y ago
  Well said.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  They do, and this is precisely why we must prosecute the bad policemen with extreme rigor. We allow them to use lethal force against our fellow people on the condition they do so only as a last resort and in order to protect society. We should not forget that condition.
  - fareesh 6y ago
    Definitely but the conversation is about the use of ketamine, not prosecution of bad policemen, which everyone universally condemns.
- comfyinnernet 6y ago
  If the police are acting like Judge Dredd and murdering people then a weak and ineffective police force is exactly what you have.
  - fareesh 6y ago
    Is there some empirical metric where this can be demonstrated as true?

by Yc4win 6y ago

wittyreference 6y ago

> powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" You’re waxing hyperbolic. It’s a sedative drug used in normal human clinical practice, and in many settings is preferable because it has -fewer- risks of complications than other sedatives. And while I’m highly critical of it’s being used without strict medical protocol, I’ve worked psych ED enough to understand that there are occasionally absolutely, 100% ridiculously “agitated” patients that are going to have to be brought in, and will not do so without large amounts of physical force - something that is also prone to unfortunate complications.

tmp538394722 6y ago
Elijah McClain was not “ridiculously agitated”. The video shows that police escalated every chance they got. After receiving a phone call of a “suspicious person” they went from in their car to hands on Elijah in less than 10s. In a matter of minutes Elijah was on the ground surrounded by a dozen officers. They’re saying “was he suspected of anything”, “why are we here”? They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack. Ridiculously agitated, my foot. They (Police) create the situation, then they (Police) prescribe ketamine. These are not the people who should be making these calls. No one should be allowed to have this kind of latitude when dealing with another human.
- FpUser 6y ago
  They're plain fucking murderers and should rot in jail. That is all about it. It is just too bad that the land of free telling every other country how to behave does not seem to give a flying fuck about the egregious behavior of their own agents. Well not unless the case gets much publicity on FB and the likes.
- newacct583 6y ago
  > They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack. And this, for the benefit of folks here who still want to treat these incidents as individual aberrations, is what BLM is about. Sure, police can be good or bad, sometimes make mistakes, etc... But POLICING, as it is practiced in this country, is a horrifying disaster. And at this point it seems almost completely beyond rescue. We need new cops, new practices, new laws, new equipment, new training. I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that.
  - hnlurker 6y ago
    This, oh and green new deal, oh and palestine, oh and destroy nuke family, oh and..... please.
  - gwright 6y ago
    > I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that. You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't really interested in. I don't agree with everything but the ideas outlined here https://www.joincampaignzero.org https://www.joincampaignzero.org are a good start. Some communities are in much worse situation than others and I think new leadership is urgently needed in many of these places (i.e., vote for change). The rhetoric that you are using is supremely dangerous. Look what is going on in Portland as the police and local political leadership have withdrawn from the basic goal of public safety and ensuring a peaceful, civil community. It is devolving into warring tribes. It is actually astonishing to me that it hasn't escalated further than it has but I see that this weekend things have changed a bit as some new tribes arrived resulting in brawls/skirmishes/fighting between the tribes as opposed to with police. To advocate or even suggest that policing, as a system, is irredeemably flawed and can't be reformed is to actively invite in chaos and civil unrest. Instead of a civil police force you will end up with an ad-hoc collection of private security, thugs, violent gangs, protection rackets, and so on. Due process will not exist and whatever problems you attribute to the current system will be much, much worse in this new "system".
    - deleted 6y ago
- ddingus 6y ago
  The reason they do that is the policing doctrine changed. Escalation of force to compliance. They are literally trained to do that.

microcolonel 6y ago

The fact that ketamine is also used by veterinarians is unremarkable. Almost every common human antibiotic is also used for fish; are broad-spectrum antibiotics “fish drugs”? Ketamine is routinely used by paramedics, I think more routinely in Western Europe than in North America. The real question is whether it is appropriate for police to request the use of sedatives while effecting an arrest; and you could argue in some cases that it is entirely appropriate even if your only priority is the wellbeing of the arrestee.

quickthrowman 6y ago

> To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. I used to drink. Heavily. Enough where I would lose control and neighbors would call 911 because they were concerned. I was removed from my home and handcuffed and brought to the ER more than once. A couple times I went smoothly, but a few times I fought back, hard. One time I was told it took 5 people to subdue me and I kicked an ambulance driver in the head. Another time I fought so hard against the handcuffs that I have permanent nerve damage in my right wrist. I also have shoulder problems that may have stemmed from being restrained by police. I would’ve rather been ketamined than kick an ambulance driver in the head or have nerve/physical damage to my body. If you’ve never completely lost control of yourself and fought against multiple people, you have no idea what they’re dealing with. Once I got to the ER, they dosed me with haloperidol anyways shrug Might as well have been ketamine when I was being detained. I hate cops, but I think ketamine could potentially help in some situations where someone has lost their goddamn mind and is fighting back hard. Edit: This all happened in the 3rd Precinct of Minneapolis, famous for murdering George Floyd

Natsu 6y ago

Ketamine is one of the most used human sedatives. It's also available by prescription (esketamine) and I know someone who used it under medical supervision. This use is also medical, to try to help calm people who have major drug overdoses and save their lives. As with all things medical, sometimes things go wrong. It's not clear to me that the ketamine had anything to do with the death, nor does the article even make that case. Cardiac arrest is the literal opposite of what one would expect of someone dying of too much ketamine. Instead, it talks about police training... even though medical professionals are the ones who inject this on site. There's a reasonable call for medical standards and study, but not a whole lot else.

fareesh 6y ago

Policemen do one of the toughest jobs in society, especially in places where crime is high. Society owes them a great debt for enforcing the law because there are some hard criminals out there who would run amok if a weak and ineffective police force were the norm. Armchair criticism of the police with zero consideration for their point of view is not helpful to anyone, most of all victims of crimes.

hnlurker 6y ago
Well said.
rbanffy 6y ago
They do, and this is precisely why we must prosecute the bad policemen with extreme rigor. We allow them to use lethal force against our fellow people on the condition they do so only as a last resort and in order to protect society. We should not forget that condition.
- fareesh 6y ago
  Definitely but the conversation is about the use of ketamine, not prosecution of bad policemen, which everyone universally condemns.
comfyinnernet 6y ago
If the police are acting like Judge Dredd and murdering people then a weak and ineffective police force is exactly what you have.
- fareesh 6y ago
  Is there some empirical metric where this can be demonstrated as true?