11 ms·

Google kicks GrooveShark out of the Android Market

63 points by charlief 15y ago

acconrad 15y ago
The important thing to note is that it will still be available, just not through direct app store channels: http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android
Kylekramer 15y ago
While probably the right move (no need to take responsibility for an app that is going to anger labels when your platform allows sideload), it is funny to see Google kicking out a company that is following the YouTube playbook word for word.
- ffumarola 15y ago
  "following the YouTube playbook word for word" Exactly, I guess they don't want to get in the middle of it. The disadvantages of building on someone else's platform, I suppose.
  - gcb 15y ago
    They don't want competition. As the parent stated, that is youtube starting. And now they also have to protect amazon mp3 investment on them. Seems weird, but I bet theres lots of politics between google and amazon over android
    - trotsky 15y ago
      Isn't the planned google music (set to launch in 2011) service going to be more or less in direct competition with Amazon MP3 & Cloud player? I doubt they are protecting Amazon interests here.
      - gcb 15y ago
        Are you pretty sure it will not be a way to direct people to amazon? Google shopping is not about google selling stuff... and guess who's usually on top Either way, I'm still sure I'm not allowed to uninstall amazon mp3 app from my android super open and free dev phone
        trotsky 15y ago
        I think that it's true. They have been trying to secure streaming and sales licenses from the labels for some time now. I suppose if that falls through (the labels are brutal at this stage of negotiations) they might team up with amazon, but I'd be surprised if that happened. They do have some precedent here, consider the google books ebookstore: http://books.google.com/ebooks http://books.google.com/ebooks
  - jokermatt999 15y ago
    It's less of a risk here though, because as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, it's still easily available through http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android. The loss of discoverability from being on the Market sucks, but the publicity from being removed reminded me to install it at least. Overall though, I think the ability to have your users install your app even if you get kicked off of the market is a fundamental advantage that Android has. It's going to be a detriment if you're a paid app, but if you're ad-supported, being kicked off the Market is not nearly as big of an issue. You just need to solve the publicity/discoverability issue.
    - ffumarola 15y ago
      Not all Android devices allow side loading, to my knowledge. So it doesn't seem to be an inherent advantage of Android. After all, you CAN jail break your iPhone.
- MatthewPhillips 15y ago
  Is it? I know that YouTube's early days were similar. But does Grooveshark have any content deals, because otherwise it is nearly 100% copyright infringement.
  - jawn 15y ago
    Grooveshark has a content deal with EMI. I'm sure there are deals with other labels as well.
    - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
      Good to know, thanks.
  - Kylekramer 15y ago
    Deals with these labels: http://grooveshark.com/labelslist http://grooveshark.com/labelslist TL;DR They got EMI (following a lawsuit), a few prominent indies like Merge, and 99% nobodies. Alongside a still in process suit from Universal Music Group.
- jamesbritt 15y ago
  While probably the right move (no need to take responsibility for an app that is going to anger labels when your platform allows sideload), Doesn't this indicate that Google admits potential culpability and concedes that it is their responsibility to police what goes into their app store? Seems a better approach would have been to shrug their shoulders and argue that the Android app store is merely an open conduit, not their curated set of apps. The implication is that they concede responsibility for whatever they don't remove.
  - bostonpete 15y ago
    > The implication is that they concede responsibility for whatever they don't remove. I'm not sure I agree. Just because Google is asserting the right to remove apps from the store (e.g. to keep strategic partners from flipping out) doesn't mean that they're conceding that they're under any obligation to do so.
    - jamesbritt 15y ago
      * ... doesn't mean that they're conceding that they're under any obligation to do so.* Maybe not, but it seems like the kind of crack in the door a lawyer might jump at next time someone complains that an app offends them, or is copying their idea, or whatever.
- taylorlb 15y ago
  I think the paths are similar, but there is a key difference for me: YouTube's success didn't initially 100% rely on using other peoples copyrighted works without permission or compensation. No doubt music videos etc. helped immensely but funny cat videos and other amateur goofy content was a big part of its success. Whereas with Grooveshark, I am fairly confident that amateur authorized content doesn't factor into the equation. That said, if the major music rights holders would just license to them from the start at affordable rates they wouldn't need to violate copyright so I suppose it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
MatthewPhillips 15y ago
I'm worried that this is influenced, at least subconsciously, by Google's attempts to open their own music service. If Google can stay in the good graces of the RIAA, they're more likely to get the streaming/cloud concessions they're hoping for. Smells like a huge conflict of interest.
yanw 15y ago
Google is under huge pressure from lawmakers in this regard: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20051248-261.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20051248-261.html During the last COICA/piracy congressional hearing reps were asking why Google doesn't fix all the ills in the world and stop all crime and the one before that turned into a Google witch trial in absentia.
lopatamd 15y ago
well you can install the app even if its not on marketplace ^_^ android ftw
olalonde 15y ago
Are there currently alternatives to the Android Market?
- jamesbritt 15y ago
  The Internet. Also Amazon's App Store, though I tried them out and won't go back until they stop coupling app store apps to the App Store app itself.
  - metageek 15y ago
    >won't go back until they stop coupling app store apps to the App Store app itself. How's that? You mean you can't run the downloaded apps if you uninstall the App Store app?
    - jamesbritt 15y ago
      How's that? You mean you can't run the downloaded apps if you uninstall the App Store app? Exactly. I have been using an app called Privacy Blocker that scans apps, reports on what identifier info apps are sending, and optional re-writes the apk to have it send bogus data. Very cool. So I scan the Amazon App Store app. Not good. I tell Privacy Blocker to fix it. Looks fine. Later I try to run Angry Birds Rio, one of the free apps Amazon was offering. I get a message telling me my App Store app is old and needs updating; Angry Birds then exits. I can't figure out how to update or reinstall the App Store from Amazon, so I put back the original version (Privacy Blocker saves these). Oh, look, Angry Birds works fine. Fuck that. I uninstall App Store; Angry Birds won't run, telling me I need the App Store app. Same goes for the Winamp app which I grabbed from Amazon (also free). No big deal, I remove those apps, then go grab Winamp from Google's app store. Free, no problem running it, no need for some intermediary grubbing my usage details. So, Amazon App Store, good for developers, less good for users.
      - true_religion 15y ago
        Did you try and remove the Google app store to see if its coupled with its apps?
jmtame 15y ago
The Groovesharkers are a fascinating group of folks =] "At no point in Grooveshark's history did I ever believe Grooveshark was going to fail. The same goes for Sam. Grooveshark is more than our product and Grooveshark is more than our ideas. Grooveshark is the group of people that we have in the company. If tomorrow, every record label and every large technology company all partnered up and launched a service that they've secretly been developing for ten years, that is Grooveshark but a thousand times better, and for whatever reason we couldn't compete with it, we would turn on a dime. We'd have a meeting tomorrow and we would both come in together and we’d say, 'okay, the bad news is this business model isn't sustainable. The good news is we're all still here, so what are we doing now?' and that would really be it." Another one that sticks with me: "Often, when we'd go pitch a potential investor, they'd offer us a bottle of water or something, and we'd always accept the water and then use it as a prop because when we'd say 'yeah, we want to compete with piracy' we would always get laughed at and told 'okay, well it's impossible to compete with piracy, everybody has tried this, you can't compete with free.' That comment always opened the door for us, we'd say, 'Well, what about this bottle of water right here, did you pay for it? Why did you pay for it? You can turn on a tap and get it free', and I really love that example, because value is a funny thing. Value is really in the eyes of the beholder, it comes down to whether or not someone is willing to pay. There are a lot of reasons why someone would be willing to pay. In the case of water, it's not because they can't get it for free, it's because there's the convenience, there's the packaging, there's the perceived quality, and any of those 'reasons' could be applied to traditional music. So, even if CD sales are tanking and now downloads are plateauing, that doesn't mean that there isn't money in music. When I think of all of the friends I have who haven't bought a DVD in years and they pirate their movies all the time, those same people are the ones that, every single Friday night, will spend $10 or more on a movie ticket to see it once but they won't spend $5 to own a copy forever." - Josh Greenberg, Grooveshark CTO/Cofounder Also relevant, an explanation from Josh on the legality of Grooveshark: "First off, I’m not a lawyer -- but I'll do my best to speak on this subject. Essentially the main governing law is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which is very long and very complicated. But there are a few parts of DMCA that, in particular, govern over services like Grooveshark, Myspace, Google, YouTube, eBay, Craigslist, Facebook, any place where users are posting content or sharing information in certain ways. Prior to this law going into effect, there was a paralyzing amount of ambiguity regarding the rights and responsibilities of consumers, service providers, and content owners. There were no defined parameters for services to operate under. The way that the DMCA arbitrates everything is basically by saying that content owners have a right to their content at the end of the day. So, if a content owner points to a specific piece of content on a service and contacts the service provider using specific parameters, then the service provider has to take that content down. There's also a lot more to it, including obligation for service providers to notify infringing users and to ban repeat infringers. I think what everything boils down to, is that the law recognizes that in a community of millions and millions of users, some will end up breaking the rules, but at the same time, content owners always have a right to point to their content to have it quickly removed; service providers have protection from what their users are doing as long as they comply with certain responsibilities toward content providers; and users have an obligation not to pirate or upload infringing content."
Indyan 15y ago
Grooveshark's response: http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/grooveshark-responds-google-android-market-ban.html http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/grooveshark-responds-google... "We were surprised by Google’s removal of the Grooveshark App from the Android Market Place, and are still unclear as to what policies have now been violated. We have always had a positive relationship with Google as evidenced by the Grooveshark App’s active and featured presence in the Android Marketplace for the past one and a half years. We respect copyright law and the rights of content owners, generating positive results and revenues for the artists and labels that we have agreements with. Regarding the content for which we do not have agreements in place yet, we abide by, and pay royalties, according to the rules outlined in the DMCA, the same legal act that governs Google and YouTube’s activities. We are eagerly looking to enter into agreements with all labels and content owners, so that we can work together to the benefit of all parties. To be effective, these agreements, however, must be struck directly with the respected content owners in the boardroom not the courtroom."
code_duck 15y ago
Well, there goes one of the advantages of Android that I mention when endorsing my phone to my friends. On the other hand, as Android still has Flash, even if you couldn't install non-market apps one could just go to Grooveshark's website.
- barake 15y ago
  TinyShark is still in the Market. It requires flash, so I imagine it is loading the Grooveshark website and automating it via a nice UI.
- jokermatt999 15y ago
  It's still available at http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android. I installed it earlier.
- superchink 15y ago
  And you can also get it on an iPhone (jailbroken) via Cydia. It's a great app…
ben1040 15y ago
If I remember right, at least a year ago when I first got my Nexus One, Grooveshark was also hidden on Android Market if I had an AT&T SIM in my phone. I could only see it and download it if I pulled my SIM out and connected via wifi. Otherwise, searching for it turned up nothing. This was when I discovered that there are carrier specific blacklist on the Market -- PDANet was a similarly blocked app, presumably on AT&T's request.
Herwig 15y ago
This company and service is absolutely amazing. Points for the amazing UI/UX
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
arihant 15y ago
Grooveshark's official app, sadly, never ran well for me. There are bunch of other Grooveshark apps, such as TinyShark, which perform far better. Would be fun to see Google running around killing little sharks.

63 points by charlief 15y ago

The important thing to note is that it will still be available, just not through direct app store channels: http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android

Kylekramer 15y ago

While probably the right move (no need to take responsibility for an app that is going to anger labels when your platform allows sideload), it is funny to see Google kicking out a company that is following the YouTube playbook word for word.

ffumarola 15y ago
"following the YouTube playbook word for word" Exactly, I guess they don't want to get in the middle of it. The disadvantages of building on someone else's platform, I suppose.
- gcb 15y ago
  They don't want competition. As the parent stated, that is youtube starting. And now they also have to protect amazon mp3 investment on them. Seems weird, but I bet theres lots of politics between google and amazon over android
  - trotsky 15y ago
    Isn't the planned google music (set to launch in 2011) service going to be more or less in direct competition with Amazon MP3 & Cloud player? I doubt they are protecting Amazon interests here.
    - gcb 15y ago
      Are you pretty sure it will not be a way to direct people to amazon? Google shopping is not about google selling stuff... and guess who's usually on top Either way, I'm still sure I'm not allowed to uninstall amazon mp3 app from my android super open and free dev phone
      - trotsky 15y ago
        I think that it's true. They have been trying to secure streaming and sales licenses from the labels for some time now. I suppose if that falls through (the labels are brutal at this stage of negotiations) they might team up with amazon, but I'd be surprised if that happened. They do have some precedent here, consider the google books ebookstore: http://books.google.com/ebooks http://books.google.com/ebooks
- jokermatt999 15y ago
  It's less of a risk here though, because as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, it's still easily available through http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android. The loss of discoverability from being on the Market sucks, but the publicity from being removed reminded me to install it at least. Overall though, I think the ability to have your users install your app even if you get kicked off of the market is a fundamental advantage that Android has. It's going to be a detriment if you're a paid app, but if you're ad-supported, being kicked off the Market is not nearly as big of an issue. You just need to solve the publicity/discoverability issue.
  - ffumarola 15y ago
    Not all Android devices allow side loading, to my knowledge. So it doesn't seem to be an inherent advantage of Android. After all, you CAN jail break your iPhone.
MatthewPhillips 15y ago
Is it? I know that YouTube's early days were similar. But does Grooveshark have any content deals, because otherwise it is nearly 100% copyright infringement.
- jawn 15y ago
  Grooveshark has a content deal with EMI. I'm sure there are deals with other labels as well.
  - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
    Good to know, thanks.
- Kylekramer 15y ago
  Deals with these labels: http://grooveshark.com/labelslist http://grooveshark.com/labelslist TL;DR They got EMI (following a lawsuit), a few prominent indies like Merge, and 99% nobodies. Alongside a still in process suit from Universal Music Group.
jamesbritt 15y ago
While probably the right move (no need to take responsibility for an app that is going to anger labels when your platform allows sideload), Doesn't this indicate that Google admits potential culpability and concedes that it is their responsibility to police what goes into their app store? Seems a better approach would have been to shrug their shoulders and argue that the Android app store is merely an open conduit, not their curated set of apps. The implication is that they concede responsibility for whatever they don't remove.
- bostonpete 15y ago
  > The implication is that they concede responsibility for whatever they don't remove. I'm not sure I agree. Just because Google is asserting the right to remove apps from the store (e.g. to keep strategic partners from flipping out) doesn't mean that they're conceding that they're under any obligation to do so.
  - jamesbritt 15y ago
    * ... doesn't mean that they're conceding that they're under any obligation to do so.* Maybe not, but it seems like the kind of crack in the door a lawyer might jump at next time someone complains that an app offends them, or is copying their idea, or whatever.
taylorlb 15y ago
I think the paths are similar, but there is a key difference for me: YouTube's success didn't initially 100% rely on using other peoples copyrighted works without permission or compensation. No doubt music videos etc. helped immensely but funny cat videos and other amateur goofy content was a big part of its success. Whereas with Grooveshark, I am fairly confident that amateur authorized content doesn't factor into the equation. That said, if the major music rights holders would just license to them from the start at affordable rates they wouldn't need to violate copyright so I suppose it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

MatthewPhillips 15y ago

I'm worried that this is influenced, at least subconsciously, by Google's attempts to open their own music service. If Google can stay in the good graces of the RIAA, they're more likely to get the streaming/cloud concessions they're hoping for. Smells like a huge conflict of interest.

yanw 15y ago

Google is under huge pressure from lawmakers in this regard: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20051248-261.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20051248-261.html During the last COICA/piracy congressional hearing reps were asking why Google doesn't fix all the ills in the world and stop all crime and the one before that turned into a Google witch trial in absentia.

lopatamd 15y ago

well you can install the app even if its not on marketplace ^_^ android ftw

olalonde 15y ago

Are there currently alternatives to the Android Market?

jamesbritt 15y ago
The Internet. Also Amazon's App Store, though I tried them out and won't go back until they stop coupling app store apps to the App Store app itself.
- metageek 15y ago
  >won't go back until they stop coupling app store apps to the App Store app itself. How's that? You mean you can't run the downloaded apps if you uninstall the App Store app?
  - jamesbritt 15y ago
    How's that? You mean you can't run the downloaded apps if you uninstall the App Store app? Exactly. I have been using an app called Privacy Blocker that scans apps, reports on what identifier info apps are sending, and optional re-writes the apk to have it send bogus data. Very cool. So I scan the Amazon App Store app. Not good. I tell Privacy Blocker to fix it. Looks fine. Later I try to run Angry Birds Rio, one of the free apps Amazon was offering. I get a message telling me my App Store app is old and needs updating; Angry Birds then exits. I can't figure out how to update or reinstall the App Store from Amazon, so I put back the original version (Privacy Blocker saves these). Oh, look, Angry Birds works fine. Fuck that. I uninstall App Store; Angry Birds won't run, telling me I need the App Store app. Same goes for the Winamp app which I grabbed from Amazon (also free). No big deal, I remove those apps, then go grab Winamp from Google's app store. Free, no problem running it, no need for some intermediary grubbing my usage details. So, Amazon App Store, good for developers, less good for users.
    - true_religion 15y ago
      Did you try and remove the Google app store to see if its coupled with its apps?

jmtame 15y ago

The Groovesharkers are a fascinating group of folks =] "At no point in Grooveshark's history did I ever believe Grooveshark was going to fail. The same goes for Sam. Grooveshark is more than our product and Grooveshark is more than our ideas. Grooveshark is the group of people that we have in the company. If tomorrow, every record label and every large technology company all partnered up and launched a service that they've secretly been developing for ten years, that is Grooveshark but a thousand times better, and for whatever reason we couldn't compete with it, we would turn on a dime. We'd have a meeting tomorrow and we would both come in together and we’d say, 'okay, the bad news is this business model isn't sustainable. The good news is we're all still here, so what are we doing now?' and that would really be it." Another one that sticks with me: "Often, when we'd go pitch a potential investor, they'd offer us a bottle of water or something, and we'd always accept the water and then use it as a prop because when we'd say 'yeah, we want to compete with piracy' we would always get laughed at and told 'okay, well it's impossible to compete with piracy, everybody has tried this, you can't compete with free.' That comment always opened the door for us, we'd say, 'Well, what about this bottle of water right here, did you pay for it? Why did you pay for it? You can turn on a tap and get it free', and I really love that example, because value is a funny thing. Value is really in the eyes of the beholder, it comes down to whether or not someone is willing to pay. There are a lot of reasons why someone would be willing to pay. In the case of water, it's not because they can't get it for free, it's because there's the convenience, there's the packaging, there's the perceived quality, and any of those 'reasons' could be applied to traditional music. So, even if CD sales are tanking and now downloads are plateauing, that doesn't mean that there isn't money in music. When I think of all of the friends I have who haven't bought a DVD in years and they pirate their movies all the time, those same people are the ones that, every single Friday night, will spend $10 or more on a movie ticket to see it once but they won't spend $5 to own a copy forever." - Josh Greenberg, Grooveshark CTO/Cofounder Also relevant, an explanation from Josh on the legality of Grooveshark: "First off, I’m not a lawyer -- but I'll do my best to speak on this subject. Essentially the main governing law is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which is very long and very complicated. But there are a few parts of DMCA that, in particular, govern over services like Grooveshark, Myspace, Google, YouTube, eBay, Craigslist, Facebook, any place where users are posting content or sharing information in certain ways. Prior to this law going into effect, there was a paralyzing amount of ambiguity regarding the rights and responsibilities of consumers, service providers, and content owners. There were no defined parameters for services to operate under. The way that the DMCA arbitrates everything is basically by saying that content owners have a right to their content at the end of the day. So, if a content owner points to a specific piece of content on a service and contacts the service provider using specific parameters, then the service provider has to take that content down. There's also a lot more to it, including obligation for service providers to notify infringing users and to ban repeat infringers. I think what everything boils down to, is that the law recognizes that in a community of millions and millions of users, some will end up breaking the rules, but at the same time, content owners always have a right to point to their content to have it quickly removed; service providers have protection from what their users are doing as long as they comply with certain responsibilities toward content providers; and users have an obligation not to pirate or upload infringing content."

Indyan 15y ago

Grooveshark's response: http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/grooveshark-responds-google-android-market-ban.html http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/grooveshark-responds-google... "We were surprised by Google’s removal of the Grooveshark App from the Android Market Place, and are still unclear as to what policies have now been violated. We have always had a positive relationship with Google as evidenced by the Grooveshark App’s active and featured presence in the Android Marketplace for the past one and a half years. We respect copyright law and the rights of content owners, generating positive results and revenues for the artists and labels that we have agreements with. Regarding the content for which we do not have agreements in place yet, we abide by, and pay royalties, according to the rules outlined in the DMCA, the same legal act that governs Google and YouTube’s activities. We are eagerly looking to enter into agreements with all labels and content owners, so that we can work together to the benefit of all parties. To be effective, these agreements, however, must be struck directly with the respected content owners in the boardroom not the courtroom."

code_duck 15y ago

Well, there goes one of the advantages of Android that I mention when endorsing my phone to my friends. On the other hand, as Android still has Flash, even if you couldn't install non-market apps one could just go to Grooveshark's website.

barake 15y ago
TinyShark is still in the Market. It requires flash, so I imagine it is loading the Grooveshark website and automating it via a nice UI.
jokermatt999 15y ago
It's still available at http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android. I installed it earlier.
superchink 15y ago
And you can also get it on an iPhone (jailbroken) via Cydia. It's a great app…

ben1040 15y ago

If I remember right, at least a year ago when I first got my Nexus One, Grooveshark was also hidden on Android Market if I had an AT&T SIM in my phone. I could only see it and download it if I pulled my SIM out and connected via wifi. Otherwise, searching for it turned up nothing. This was when I discovered that there are carrier specific blacklist on the Market -- PDANet was a similarly blocked app, presumably on AT&T's request.

Herwig 15y ago

This company and service is absolutely amazing. Points for the amazing UI/UX

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

arihant 15y ago

Grooveshark's official app, sadly, never ran well for me. There are bunch of other Grooveshark apps, such as TinyShark, which perform far better. Would be fun to see Google running around killing little sharks.