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Not sure what assumptions are to be made by comparing this with US population by ethnicity except that they should be match up - which I don't agree with. Also

Not sure what assumptions are to be made by comparing this with US population by ethnicity except that they should be match up - which I don't agree with. Also are Jewish people considered White in this case? I simultaneously see that they are referred to as minorities but also don't see them represented in statistics such as these when comparing ethnicity in X with ethnic population in the US.

peteretep 6y ago
> Not sure what assumptions are to be made by comparing this with US population by ethnicity except that they should be match up - which I don't agree with. Why don't you think they should match up?
- FiberBundle 6y ago
  Because they should be based on merit.
  - take_a_breath 6y ago
    Then the concept of “legacy students” should be illegal.
    - LanceH 6y ago
      Alumni paying millions (billions) of dollars over years is of great merit to a private university.
      - take_a_breath 6y ago
        Sure, but it proves that admission is not based on the student’s merit. It discriminates against those whose parents did not attend the school.
        LanceH 6y ago
        Alternately, it rewards those who made the school great in the first place -- by admitting their children. Note that it's not strictly zero sum either. Huge grants by previous may have opened the university to more people than are admitted by legacy admissions -- yielding greater participation by non-legacy than previously possible. People are choosing one small slice of what goes on with a university -- admissions right now. They are glossing over the fact that it is other people who made the university great over the years to the point that it is desirable at all. Those people made it great by donating money and going on to bring prestige to the university. Ignore them and lose the prestige and money.
        take_a_breath 6y ago
        ==They are glossing over the fact that it is other people who made the university great over the years to the point that it is desirable at all. Those people made it great by donating money and going on to bring prestige to the university. Ignore them and lose the prestige and money.== Nobody is glossing over that fact. I am simply saying that if anything outside of a student's merit is "discrimination", then taking into account the alumni status or past contributions of [not that student] is also "discrimination". They are not the student's merits to weigh, they are the relative's merits.
        LanceH 6y ago
        Ok, but "discrimination" is a loaded word and definitely not neutral. It has implications. It implies a right to admission that ignores the desires of those who built the school to what it is now (which would be that their heirs get to attend as well). Not all selection criteria is "discrimination". Alternately, if it is, then there is nothing inherently wrong with discrimination. Again, these are private schools that everyone is talking about. The use of legacy admissions in a state school would be completely wrong.
        take_a_breath 6y ago
        I think we are agreeing. I was trying to highlight that by calling everything that involves subjectivity “discrimination”, we diminish the word. Very much agree on these being private schools and playing by a different set of rules.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    Does this imply you think some races are more meritorious than others?
- anonymoushn 6y ago
  The demographics of the US population may differ from the demographics of the college-age US population, or the demographics of the population of high-achieving high schoolers who want to go to Yale, or the demographics or the population of those people plus international students.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  It's well established that those different ethnic groups have different average IQs. But really even any small group difference in any relevant way would be more pronounced at the elite level. You should expect a gross disproportionality by default.
  - syspec 6y ago
    Established? Hmm....
  - room500 6y ago
    Source?
    - lopmotr 6y ago
      Google? I know that sounds rude, but since it's well established, not some fringe theory, it's trivial to find out yourself. Wikipedia has a page on it with references you can dig into. Google also shows a Forbes article if you want lighter reading.
      - room500 6y ago
        I asked for your source because most studies have been refuted and I was curious if you found a legitimate one. Pulling up a random link on Google is not helpful to the discussion. The Wikipedia article that you point to refutes it on almost every point... Please point me to the section that supports your claims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence >>> The concept of "race" is a social construct, and "intelligence" has no agreed-upon definition; the validity of IQ tests as a metric for general intelligence is itself disputed. In particular, there is no scientific evidence that the average IQ scores of different racial or ethnic population groups can be attributed to any claimed genetic differences between those groups.
        lopmotr 6y ago
        I didn't say it was attributed to genetic differences, nor that IQ is a good measure of general intelligence. I didn't even use the word "race" that you're concerned about the definition of. You might be arguing a different point. What are these most studies that have been refuted? Can you tell me the number or the percentage or a big list of refuted studies along with a shorter list of non-refuted ones, or anything to show that's a real fact and you're not just repeating what activists have told you. Make sure it's not a trick like counting mostly 100 year old studies which could be greater in number allowing you to ignore everything from the last couple of decades. That might make true but also misleading.
- ghj 6y ago
  Different race happen to be correlated with different cultural values. One particular cultural value is caring a whole lot about education and prestigious degrees (see the test prep industry in most of asia). I have no problem with people who value education getting an edge in admissions. So even in a race-blind world, I am okay with outcomes not matching population statistics. Because in a world where you're solely judged based on your values that's exactly what you'd see. But what's happening is that two different people can both adopt this same "education" value and have different outcome because of their race. The opportunities are not equal, not for blacks, not for asians.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    > Different race happen to be correlated with different cultural values. Citation?
- msla 6y ago
  > Why don't you think they should match up? Is there an a priori reason they must?
cik 6y ago
As a non-white Jew (there are 20-30% of us!) I know I'd be annoyed to be considered white. I'd like to hope we've finally moved beyond this one.
- anonymoushn 6y ago
  Are you non-white according to the classification system commonly used by the US government and universities though? In the US, everyone who lives in Mexico and almost everyone who lives in Iraq is white.
  - cik 6y ago
    No idea. Why should I care what the US government thinks white equates to. Having zero "white", "caucasian", or similar ancestry other than Jewish and from Arab lands for hundreds of years makes me very non-white. But if you want to judge it by looks, I look like an Arab. Like hundreds of thousands of other Jews.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      The US concept of "caucasian" Streisanded the caucasus region for me, so among other things I've learned about the Niggun Shamil. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23914667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23914667 שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם ٱلسَّلَامُ عَلَيْكُمْ :-) PS. do you have any opinion on סרוגים‎ (the show)?
      - cik 6y ago
        Wow it's been years since I saw that... I loved the first season, then it dropped off the map. If you like סרוגים‎ try שבאבניקים
    - anonymoushn 6y ago
      That's fine. I'm sorry if I've offended you. I meant that for the purpose of these discussions about US university racial demographics, Arabs are white.

peteretep 6y ago

> Not sure what assumptions are to be made by comparing this with US population by ethnicity except that they should be match up - which I don't agree with. Why don't you think they should match up?

FiberBundle 6y ago
Because they should be based on merit.
- take_a_breath 6y ago
  Then the concept of “legacy students” should be illegal.
  - LanceH 6y ago
    Alumni paying millions (billions) of dollars over years is of great merit to a private university.
    - take_a_breath 6y ago
      Sure, but it proves that admission is not based on the student’s merit. It discriminates against those whose parents did not attend the school.
      - LanceH 6y ago
        Alternately, it rewards those who made the school great in the first place -- by admitting their children. Note that it's not strictly zero sum either. Huge grants by previous may have opened the university to more people than are admitted by legacy admissions -- yielding greater participation by non-legacy than previously possible. People are choosing one small slice of what goes on with a university -- admissions right now. They are glossing over the fact that it is other people who made the university great over the years to the point that it is desirable at all. Those people made it great by donating money and going on to bring prestige to the university. Ignore them and lose the prestige and money.
        take_a_breath 6y ago
        ==They are glossing over the fact that it is other people who made the university great over the years to the point that it is desirable at all. Those people made it great by donating money and going on to bring prestige to the university. Ignore them and lose the prestige and money.== Nobody is glossing over that fact. I am simply saying that if anything outside of a student's merit is "discrimination", then taking into account the alumni status or past contributions of [not that student] is also "discrimination". They are not the student's merits to weigh, they are the relative's merits.
        LanceH 6y ago
        Ok, but "discrimination" is a loaded word and definitely not neutral. It has implications. It implies a right to admission that ignores the desires of those who built the school to what it is now (which would be that their heirs get to attend as well). Not all selection criteria is "discrimination". Alternately, if it is, then there is nothing inherently wrong with discrimination. Again, these are private schools that everyone is talking about. The use of legacy admissions in a state school would be completely wrong.
        take_a_breath 6y ago
        I think we are agreeing. I was trying to highlight that by calling everything that involves subjectivity “discrimination”, we diminish the word. Very much agree on these being private schools and playing by a different set of rules.
- peteretep 6y ago
  Does this imply you think some races are more meritorious than others?
anonymoushn 6y ago
The demographics of the US population may differ from the demographics of the college-age US population, or the demographics of the population of high-achieving high schoolers who want to go to Yale, or the demographics or the population of those people plus international students.
lopmotr 6y ago
It's well established that those different ethnic groups have different average IQs. But really even any small group difference in any relevant way would be more pronounced at the elite level. You should expect a gross disproportionality by default.
- syspec 6y ago
  Established? Hmm....
- room500 6y ago
  Source?
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    Google? I know that sounds rude, but since it's well established, not some fringe theory, it's trivial to find out yourself. Wikipedia has a page on it with references you can dig into. Google also shows a Forbes article if you want lighter reading.
    - room500 6y ago
      I asked for your source because most studies have been refuted and I was curious if you found a legitimate one. Pulling up a random link on Google is not helpful to the discussion. The Wikipedia article that you point to refutes it on almost every point... Please point me to the section that supports your claims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence >>> The concept of "race" is a social construct, and "intelligence" has no agreed-upon definition; the validity of IQ tests as a metric for general intelligence is itself disputed. In particular, there is no scientific evidence that the average IQ scores of different racial or ethnic population groups can be attributed to any claimed genetic differences between those groups.
      - lopmotr 6y ago
        I didn't say it was attributed to genetic differences, nor that IQ is a good measure of general intelligence. I didn't even use the word "race" that you're concerned about the definition of. You might be arguing a different point. What are these most studies that have been refuted? Can you tell me the number or the percentage or a big list of refuted studies along with a shorter list of non-refuted ones, or anything to show that's a real fact and you're not just repeating what activists have told you. Make sure it's not a trick like counting mostly 100 year old studies which could be greater in number allowing you to ignore everything from the last couple of decades. That might make true but also misleading.
ghj 6y ago
Different race happen to be correlated with different cultural values. One particular cultural value is caring a whole lot about education and prestigious degrees (see the test prep industry in most of asia). I have no problem with people who value education getting an edge in admissions. So even in a race-blind world, I am okay with outcomes not matching population statistics. Because in a world where you're solely judged based on your values that's exactly what you'd see. But what's happening is that two different people can both adopt this same "education" value and have different outcome because of their race. The opportunities are not equal, not for blacks, not for asians.
- peteretep 6y ago
  > Different race happen to be correlated with different cultural values. Citation?
msla 6y ago
> Why don't you think they should match up? Is there an a priori reason they must?

cik 6y ago

As a non-white Jew (there are 20-30% of us!) I know I'd be annoyed to be considered white. I'd like to hope we've finally moved beyond this one.

anonymoushn 6y ago
Are you non-white according to the classification system commonly used by the US government and universities though? In the US, everyone who lives in Mexico and almost everyone who lives in Iraq is white.
- cik 6y ago
  No idea. Why should I care what the US government thinks white equates to. Having zero "white", "caucasian", or similar ancestry other than Jewish and from Arab lands for hundreds of years makes me very non-white. But if you want to judge it by looks, I look like an Arab. Like hundreds of thousands of other Jews.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    The US concept of "caucasian" Streisanded the caucasus region for me, so among other things I've learned about the Niggun Shamil. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23914667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23914667 שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם ٱلسَّلَامُ عَلَيْكُمْ :-) PS. do you have any opinion on סרוגים‎ (the show)?
    - cik 6y ago
      Wow it's been years since I saw that... I loved the first season, then it dropped off the map. If you like סרוגים‎ try שבאבניקים
  - anonymoushn 6y ago
    That's fine. I'm sorry if I've offended you. I meant that for the purpose of these discussions about US university racial demographics, Arabs are white.