11 ms·

Show HN: Warp, a Python based music-theory aware MIDI sequencer

98 points by mpdehaan2 6y ago

mpdehaan2 6y ago
Hi everyone, I've been making music with synthesizers for a long time, and I always saw great ideas in DAW tools and in hardware, but never all of those ideas in one place. I wanted more music theory awareness in my compositional tools, like the ability to access easy scale changes. I wanted patterns to be symlinks, and to make it easy to have multiple patterns in a single clip. I wrote Warp to make it happen. Today there's a Python API that can make full songs, and the work on the UI is getting started, which will be available this Fall. The Python API doesn't technically even require using a loop, so it should be accessible to programmers who aren't Python experts. Let me know if there are questions, and if you'd like updates, you can also follow @warpseq on twitter.
- dangoor 6y ago
  Neat project! You might find TheoryBoard interesting[1]. It's a midi controller that tries to embed knowledge of scales. [1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/irijule/theoryboard-thy333-music-theory-made-easy https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/irijule/theoryboard-thy...
  - mpdehaan2 6y ago
    that's a cool interface - "impossible to play a wrong note" kinda leaves out the ability for intentional accidentals, but... not bad for a lot of things. Bonus points if they get the glowing holograms floating in the air working :)
    - dangoor 6y ago
      Yeah, true that wrong notes are sometimes the right thing to do! and I would totally back that kickstarter if they had floating holograms
    - xzel 6y ago
      They actually have some cool features to allow multiple scales and scale changes, so intentional accidentals are promoted. This looks a lot like the Ableton Push controllers besides the direct Ableton integrations. I think the unintentional accidents are what would be missed, and those can be just as good.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  Hello there. This looks interesting, but I think that from a promotional standpoint, your website needs screenshots or a video of the user interface for your program. It's cool that you can make this music with it, but I would like to quickly get a feel for how your program is used. IMO, most people will want to see that before they invest time reading documentation or downloading and installing your software. Just my two cents! I hope this is helpful.
  - mpdehaan2 6y ago
    Yep, that's true. For now there isn't a user interface and doing some youtubes about the API is definitely planned. the API will remain around forever though, and is useful for generative composition today. Do a checkout and you can see quite a few song files in the examples dir which should be helpful in getting a feel for it. UI should be out in a few months and will be more photogenic for youtube and will also ship with some demo tracks showing how all of the patterns work.
Mizza 6y ago
This is cool! I've build a much cruder version that I use for generating chord sequences to bring into DAWS: https://github.com/Miserlou/chords2midi https://github.com/Miserlou/chords2midi It even has voice leading, which required translating an "algorithm" written in German in the 1800's!
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  oh cool, I had a friend who mentioned (I think another one though) program that generated tiny MIDI clips. That would be great for dragging into a DAW and repositioning them around. Nice!
LeoPanthera 6y ago
I love the idea, but if successful, I don't how the Warp record label will feel about the name. https://warp.net https://warp.net
TaupeRanger 6y ago
"music theory aware"? Like...it snaps sequences to scales like every other decent sequencer? I can't actually tell why this is useful from the front page description.
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  Nope! With those systems you have no way to input accidentals. Here, notes are entered in scale degree, so if you say "4 5 6" you get the 4th, 5th, and 6th scale note, every time. If you later want to transpose to Eb Pentatonic, everything remains musical. The arp can also tranpose by scale notes instead of just semitones too. Also, there's quite a bit more, all in the docs. There's a ton more there.
  - TaupeRanger 6y ago
    What you've just described after "Nope!" is exactly what I mentioned in my post, which is now downvoted I guess. Many many sequencers let you ask for "4 5 6" and adjust for any scale you want. What are you claiming is new here?
    - mpdehaan2 6y ago
      Those sequencers do not include Ableton, the Monomachine, Bitwig, Logic, or any that I have experience with. They all use force to scale mechanics that make accidentals impossible. I suspect Numerology might. I've only seen semitone transpose in most arp implementations, never the ability to work within scale notes. I've never seen an arp that can walk across chords and probabilistically invert them. The Cirklon had a lot of great ideas including some things like random step transpositions and variables - but generally, in DAWs, it's not something you have access to. Nobody's even tried to get something like Electron parameter locks going, which is a shame, because they are awesome. I don't have enough karma or levels or superpowers to down vote anyone. I have no idea how this website works in that regard.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    What happens to "6 7 8" in a mapping from (e.g.) a straight minor to a pentatonic scale?
henearkr 6y ago
Maybe Julia would be the more natural language for music theory, as both are one-based indexed.
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  Here the Python API is just expressing the pattern language to user land, the user does not have to deal with python arrays at all. See some examples at https://bitbucket.org/laserllama/warpseq/src/master/examples/ https://bitbucket.org/laserllama/warpseq/src/master/examples... And then you can imagine the web interface growing up around those simple lists of strings.
- kazinator 6y ago
  Two wrongs won't make a right. A much better idea is to represent intervals internally in such a way that unison is zero. The jury may be out on how to enumerate items in a sequence, but a delta offset must be zero-based. That is simply not negotiable. Western music theory is crazy. Come on: every seven diatonic notes, we get another octave? What? And then we need a "rule of nine" for inverting an interval?
  - mpdehaan2 6y ago
    I completely concur with Western music theory being crazy. I would love to be raised by aliens where music was cleanly lined up with decimals or base negative three integers or ... anything. There's all the string vibration stuff that leads to 4ths and 5ths though, which as I think fundamental to how we got here, but even little things, like "starting at C" for octaves... it's all weird :) The "whole whole half" thing is a mess, and then you get semitones and notes that are missing on the keyboard, etc. Fun times!
    - flak48 6y ago
      As someone with very little music theory knowledge is there a better alternative to getting into music theory to be able to write music, than the western system, that can be recommended? Like how it would feel to grow up learning in metric instead of imperial units for example? Sorry if I didn't understand what you and GP were trying to say
StavrosK 6y ago
I tried to use this, but the PYTHONPATH weirdness was a minor impediment, I tried to actually install it but setup.py is missing a quote, installing it doesn't actually install the notation module, and then finally relenting and redefining PYTHONPATH runs to the point where it tells me I need a MIDI device, and I don't have one. Can I not just make it output sound to my computer speakers?
- jestar_jokin 6y ago
  A MIDI sequencer just outputs MIDI instructions, it doesn't generate sound unless it implements a synth (sound generator) of some sort. You'd need to install something like loopMIDI, and direct the output of the sequencer to the input of a VST host, where you can load whatever synths you want.
  - mpdehaan2 6y ago
    to add to the above, on OS X, instead of loop MIDI, you can create a Virtual IAC bus instead. For someone with a Windows machine that has loopMIDI, if you want to send me a patch for Windows setup instructions, I'd love to add them. I mostly develop on a Mac myself. There are also some soft synths that don't need a VST host, some mentioned here - https://blog.landr.com/the-7-best-free-synth-vst-plugins/ https://blog.landr.com/the-7-best-free-synth-vst-plugins/ I will admit I haven't used the setup.py having copied it from a previous project, and that's a stupid shortcut to make... I'll take a look at take care of the space issue.
adamnemecek 6y ago
I've been working in an IDE for music composition http://ngrid.io http://ngrid.io. Releasing soon.
- main_gi 6y ago
  Are there previews or short videos with this?
  - mpdehaan2 6y ago
    no videos at this time, there are source codes all the tracks in git (linked below the soundcloud player on the homepage) - and that should give an overview. Basically I'd be talking through the source code. If you go up one directory, you'll hit "api/examples" which is more functonal (but less song-like) demos of particular features. Basically the API is "step 1" to building the final sequencer, but we always want to have the API available for the generative music crowd (and also our own use). Conceptually I think this would be really great to build an ear training program out of, because it's so easy to tell it to generate a ton of chords, scales, and intervals. Maybe that will come later too. Anyway, video is still something on my radar!
kbob 6y ago
This looks a little like the NDLR from Conductive Labs. The NDLR is a hardware box. While you can enter chord progressions into it, it's intended for live performance where you enter chords as it plays them. My issue with the NDLR is that its sequences have no random variation. If you don't keep tweaking the parameters ("noodling"), it starts sounding repetitive quickly. Any idea whether Warp would run on MicroPython? The NDLR, or a box like it, might make a nice UI.
- jsilence 6y ago
  Would be awesome if it ran on Micropython or Circuitpython. Preferably on a Teensy 4.0.
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  Yeah, I don't know what it would take. We're currently using very few dependencies so... maybe? Shoot me an email using the links on the homepage if you like and we can continue the conversation.

98 points by mpdehaan2 6y ago

Hi everyone, I've been making music with synthesizers for a long time, and I always saw great ideas in DAW tools and in hardware, but never all of those ideas in one place. I wanted more music theory awareness in my compositional tools, like the ability to access easy scale changes. I wanted patterns to be symlinks, and to make it easy to have multiple patterns in a single clip. I wrote Warp to make it happen. Today there's a Python API that can make full songs, and the work on the UI is getting started, which will be available this Fall. The Python API doesn't technically even require using a loop, so it should be accessible to programmers who aren't Python experts. Let me know if there are questions, and if you'd like updates, you can also follow @warpseq on twitter.

dangoor 6y ago
Neat project! You might find TheoryBoard interesting[1]. It's a midi controller that tries to embed knowledge of scales. [1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/irijule/theoryboard-thy333-music-theory-made-easy https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/irijule/theoryboard-thy...
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  that's a cool interface - "impossible to play a wrong note" kinda leaves out the ability for intentional accidentals, but... not bad for a lot of things. Bonus points if they get the glowing holograms floating in the air working :)
  - dangoor 6y ago
    Yeah, true that wrong notes are sometimes the right thing to do! and I would totally back that kickstarter if they had floating holograms
  - xzel 6y ago
    They actually have some cool features to allow multiple scales and scale changes, so intentional accidentals are promoted. This looks a lot like the Ableton Push controllers besides the direct Ableton integrations. I think the unintentional accidents are what would be missed, and those can be just as good.
tachyonbeam 6y ago
Hello there. This looks interesting, but I think that from a promotional standpoint, your website needs screenshots or a video of the user interface for your program. It's cool that you can make this music with it, but I would like to quickly get a feel for how your program is used. IMO, most people will want to see that before they invest time reading documentation or downloading and installing your software. Just my two cents! I hope this is helpful.
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  Yep, that's true. For now there isn't a user interface and doing some youtubes about the API is definitely planned. the API will remain around forever though, and is useful for generative composition today. Do a checkout and you can see quite a few song files in the examples dir which should be helpful in getting a feel for it. UI should be out in a few months and will be more photogenic for youtube and will also ship with some demo tracks showing how all of the patterns work.

Mizza 6y ago

This is cool! I've build a much cruder version that I use for generating chord sequences to bring into DAWS: https://github.com/Miserlou/chords2midi https://github.com/Miserlou/chords2midi It even has voice leading, which required translating an "algorithm" written in German in the 1800's!

mpdehaan2 6y ago
oh cool, I had a friend who mentioned (I think another one though) program that generated tiny MIDI clips. That would be great for dragging into a DAW and repositioning them around. Nice!

LeoPanthera 6y ago

I love the idea, but if successful, I don't how the Warp record label will feel about the name. https://warp.net https://warp.net

TaupeRanger 6y ago

"music theory aware"? Like...it snaps sequences to scales like every other decent sequencer? I can't actually tell why this is useful from the front page description.

mpdehaan2 6y ago
Nope! With those systems you have no way to input accidentals. Here, notes are entered in scale degree, so if you say "4 5 6" you get the 4th, 5th, and 6th scale note, every time. If you later want to transpose to Eb Pentatonic, everything remains musical. The arp can also tranpose by scale notes instead of just semitones too. Also, there's quite a bit more, all in the docs. There's a ton more there.
- TaupeRanger 6y ago
  What you've just described after "Nope!" is exactly what I mentioned in my post, which is now downvoted I guess. Many many sequencers let you ask for "4 5 6" and adjust for any scale you want. What are you claiming is new here?
  - mpdehaan2 6y ago
    Those sequencers do not include Ableton, the Monomachine, Bitwig, Logic, or any that I have experience with. They all use force to scale mechanics that make accidentals impossible. I suspect Numerology might. I've only seen semitone transpose in most arp implementations, never the ability to work within scale notes. I've never seen an arp that can walk across chords and probabilistically invert them. The Cirklon had a lot of great ideas including some things like random step transpositions and variables - but generally, in DAWs, it's not something you have access to. Nobody's even tried to get something like Electron parameter locks going, which is a shame, because they are awesome. I don't have enough karma or levels or superpowers to down vote anyone. I have no idea how this website works in that regard.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  What happens to "6 7 8" in a mapping from (e.g.) a straight minor to a pentatonic scale?

henearkr 6y ago

Maybe Julia would be the more natural language for music theory, as both are one-based indexed.

mpdehaan2 6y ago
Here the Python API is just expressing the pattern language to user land, the user does not have to deal with python arrays at all. See some examples at https://bitbucket.org/laserllama/warpseq/src/master/examples/ https://bitbucket.org/laserllama/warpseq/src/master/examples... And then you can imagine the web interface growing up around those simple lists of strings.
kazinator 6y ago
Two wrongs won't make a right. A much better idea is to represent intervals internally in such a way that unison is zero. The jury may be out on how to enumerate items in a sequence, but a delta offset must be zero-based. That is simply not negotiable. Western music theory is crazy. Come on: every seven diatonic notes, we get another octave? What? And then we need a "rule of nine" for inverting an interval?
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  I completely concur with Western music theory being crazy. I would love to be raised by aliens where music was cleanly lined up with decimals or base negative three integers or ... anything. There's all the string vibration stuff that leads to 4ths and 5ths though, which as I think fundamental to how we got here, but even little things, like "starting at C" for octaves... it's all weird :) The "whole whole half" thing is a mess, and then you get semitones and notes that are missing on the keyboard, etc. Fun times!
  - flak48 6y ago
    As someone with very little music theory knowledge is there a better alternative to getting into music theory to be able to write music, than the western system, that can be recommended? Like how it would feel to grow up learning in metric instead of imperial units for example? Sorry if I didn't understand what you and GP were trying to say

StavrosK 6y ago

I tried to use this, but the PYTHONPATH weirdness was a minor impediment, I tried to actually install it but setup.py is missing a quote, installing it doesn't actually install the notation module, and then finally relenting and redefining PYTHONPATH runs to the point where it tells me I need a MIDI device, and I don't have one. Can I not just make it output sound to my computer speakers?

jestar_jokin 6y ago
A MIDI sequencer just outputs MIDI instructions, it doesn't generate sound unless it implements a synth (sound generator) of some sort. You'd need to install something like loopMIDI, and direct the output of the sequencer to the input of a VST host, where you can load whatever synths you want.
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  to add to the above, on OS X, instead of loop MIDI, you can create a Virtual IAC bus instead. For someone with a Windows machine that has loopMIDI, if you want to send me a patch for Windows setup instructions, I'd love to add them. I mostly develop on a Mac myself. There are also some soft synths that don't need a VST host, some mentioned here - https://blog.landr.com/the-7-best-free-synth-vst-plugins/ https://blog.landr.com/the-7-best-free-synth-vst-plugins/ I will admit I haven't used the setup.py having copied it from a previous project, and that's a stupid shortcut to make... I'll take a look at take care of the space issue.

adamnemecek 6y ago

I've been working in an IDE for music composition http://ngrid.io http://ngrid.io. Releasing soon.

main_gi 6y ago
Are there previews or short videos with this?
- mpdehaan2 6y ago
  no videos at this time, there are source codes all the tracks in git (linked below the soundcloud player on the homepage) - and that should give an overview. Basically I'd be talking through the source code. If you go up one directory, you'll hit "api/examples" which is more functonal (but less song-like) demos of particular features. Basically the API is "step 1" to building the final sequencer, but we always want to have the API available for the generative music crowd (and also our own use). Conceptually I think this would be really great to build an ear training program out of, because it's so easy to tell it to generate a ton of chords, scales, and intervals. Maybe that will come later too. Anyway, video is still something on my radar!

kbob 6y ago

This looks a little like the NDLR from Conductive Labs. The NDLR is a hardware box. While you can enter chord progressions into it, it's intended for live performance where you enter chords as it plays them. My issue with the NDLR is that its sequences have no random variation. If you don't keep tweaking the parameters ("noodling"), it starts sounding repetitive quickly. Any idea whether Warp would run on MicroPython? The NDLR, or a box like it, might make a nice UI.

jsilence 6y ago
Would be awesome if it ran on Micropython or Circuitpython. Preferably on a Teensy 4.0.
mpdehaan2 6y ago
Yeah, I don't know what it would take. We're currently using very few dependencies so... maybe? Shoot me an email using the links on the homepage if you like and we can continue the conversation.