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These fees aren't for bloated admin. They support resources like the library, general student use fitness facilities, techology, and other student focused items

These fees aren't for bloated admin. They support resources like the library, general student use fitness facilities, techology, and other student focused items. I get why students want to stop paying these fees during the pandemic since they can't use many of the resources. The issue is that most of the costs for these resources are fixed, mainly personnel and facilities. If you cut the fees, the university would have to lay off many of its staff, librarians, IT support, etc. The facilities would also fall into disrepair. There's no easy solution here.

code4tee 6y ago
Few would argue about fixed costs of libraries, but you be hard pressed to explain how libraries etc. are responsible for the cost of higher ed increasing far far faster than inflation to levels that are increasingly hard to justify. That has a lot more to do with the number of “Assistant Vice Provost of Underwater Basketweaving” type non-teaching non-research roles and positions that have developed over the years at many schools. It’s a story similar to Healthcare in the US. It’s so expensive because so little is actually spent on healthcare vs paperwork and administration.
- fortran77 6y ago
  See "Administrative Bloat and Academic Freedom" https://www.thefire.org/administrative-bloat-and-academic-freedom/ https://www.thefire.org/administrative-bloat-and-academic-fr...
- agumonkey 6y ago
  is it a case of it's hard to do a job badly so we need more resources to work badly more ?
Retric 6y ago
Universities can still cut quite a few costs when facilities are underutilized without letting things decay. Buildings don’t need to be kept at room temperature without people. Most computers and lights can be kept off. Parking lots don’t need to be kept plowed and salted in the winter. Grounds can generally be less immaculate without long term issues. Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use.
- gus_massa 6y ago
  > Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use. The university can save some money because it use less soap and bleach, but I hope they are still paying the cleaning crew.
  - vinceguidry 6y ago
    Large orgs generally hire contracting companies who manage their own workforce.
  - new2628 6y ago
    Most such services are contracted anyway and not on payroll.
    - to11mtm 6y ago
      But even those services are sometimes questionable in actual value (and overall experience.) Example: At the college I went to, the food service company that handled the cafeteria had some interesting clauses in their contract that gave them a lot of control over who else could cook food for an 'on campus/university sanctioned' event. It's been a long time so I can't remember the specifics, but I think we had to switch some fraternity events from cooking hotdogs/hamburgers outside to just bringing some Carry Out pizza. On top of that, the workers for that company weren't paid well, the food was typically about what you'd expect from, say, bulk purchases from Gordon Food Service, and very expensive for students. Speaking of that, IIRC if you lived on campus you had to have some form of meal plan (I assume that was also in the contract.)
mc32 6y ago
How did they do it before? The fees widely outpace inflation. It’d be nice to see state schools be affordable to kids on a part time job —which used to be the case. That’s not been the case for a few decades.
- enumjorge 6y ago
  That’s the thing the puzzles me. Some of these universities’ annual tuition amounts to a healthy 1 year’s salary. How did they operate when this wasn’t the case?
  - gowld 6y ago
    They didn't build luxury spa resorts on campus to impress students and US News & World Report, in a mad race for govt guaranteed loan funds. Universities used to look like high schools, and still do in many parts of Europe (and at community colleges).
Bx6667 6y ago
Bullshit. Prove it. Show me a page from their books (accountants not librarians) that proves it. Then I will believe you. And you’re wrong on multiple levels because you say that money goes into “personal fitness facilities.” Oh, you mean the lavish resort-spas that have popped up on campuses suddenly? The ones that popped up around the same time that college became retardedly expensive? Yes, I believe those are the ones you are talking about. It makes you wrong because luxury time share condominiums aren’t necessary for educating people. It’s the same as if you threw those hundreds of millions in the toilet. Not “a fixed and necessary expense.” And that’s not even to mention the huge, gigantic bloat that is present everywhere and touches everything and very definitely reduces the quality of the actual academics of the school. Hey, let’s see you come up for a reason why text books cost hundreds of dollars a piece and are re-written every year with almost no changes except to the numbering of the problem set. This is going to be fantastic, better than the circus even. I should sell tickets to this comment. I am looking forward to your response.
thatcat 6y ago
The easy solution is for Unis to take an L for once and to cover costs with their enormous savings from the last 30 years of exponential growth. Those fees obviously are over actual cost to cover contingencies, a pandemic was inevitable on the time scale of a university. They probably should have gotten insurance, what do those admins do anyway if not plan for things such as this?
- mrgordon 6y ago
  It’s exempted from insurance but yeah they should have some reserves
- gowld 6y ago
  At most places, that money was already spent, not saved up. You can't buy insurance for something that cripples everyone. Math isn't magic.
vkou 6y ago
My university had a dozen computer labs that were never utilized to capacity, (One in a dedicated, multi-story building), and a library that was far bigger than any of the other buildings on campus. And, of course, all the accouterments necessary to run a physics, a chemistry, a biology, an engineering department, etc, etc, etc. All-in-market-rate-no-discount-no-subsidies-international-student tuition was ~100,000 CAD/4 years. It's true, though, we did not have a stadium that could sit 60,000 people, or two olympic-sized swimming pools, or four-star-hotel-accomodation dorms that we were for some reason forced to live in, but we also weren't paying $100,000/year in tuition.
jdeibele 6y ago
"The number of non-academic administrative and professional employees at U.S. colleges and universities has more than doubled in the last 25 years, vastly outpacing the growth in the number of students or faculty, according to an analysis of federal figures." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/higher-ed-administrators-growth_n_4738584 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/higher-ed-administrators-grow...
- einpoklum 6y ago
  That sounds like a cooked study, although to be honest I don't have concrete evidence, just a hunch based on what I know about the atmosphere in universities. The author of the study is a sort of a think-tank called AIR with representatives of the banking, corporate consulting and finance on the board.
alpineidyll3 6y ago
With all due respect, I don't think you've seen the finances of a the typical private US University. Admin spending has grown geometrically. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinesimon/2017/09/05/bureaucrats-and-buildings-the-case-for-why-college-is-so-expensive/#71778b5a456a https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinesimon/2017/09/05/bureau...

code4tee 6y ago

Few would argue about fixed costs of libraries, but you be hard pressed to explain how libraries etc. are responsible for the cost of higher ed increasing far far faster than inflation to levels that are increasingly hard to justify. That has a lot more to do with the number of “Assistant Vice Provost of Underwater Basketweaving” type non-teaching non-research roles and positions that have developed over the years at many schools. It’s a story similar to Healthcare in the US. It’s so expensive because so little is actually spent on healthcare vs paperwork and administration.

fortran77 6y ago
See "Administrative Bloat and Academic Freedom" https://www.thefire.org/administrative-bloat-and-academic-freedom/ https://www.thefire.org/administrative-bloat-and-academic-fr...
agumonkey 6y ago
is it a case of it's hard to do a job badly so we need more resources to work badly more ?

Retric 6y ago

Universities can still cut quite a few costs when facilities are underutilized without letting things decay. Buildings don’t need to be kept at room temperature without people. Most computers and lights can be kept off. Parking lots don’t need to be kept plowed and salted in the winter. Grounds can generally be less immaculate without long term issues. Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use.

gus_massa 6y ago
> Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use. The university can save some money because it use less soap and bleach, but I hope they are still paying the cleaning crew.
- vinceguidry 6y ago
  Large orgs generally hire contracting companies who manage their own workforce.
- new2628 6y ago
  Most such services are contracted anyway and not on payroll.
  - to11mtm 6y ago
    But even those services are sometimes questionable in actual value (and overall experience.) Example: At the college I went to, the food service company that handled the cafeteria had some interesting clauses in their contract that gave them a lot of control over who else could cook food for an 'on campus/university sanctioned' event. It's been a long time so I can't remember the specifics, but I think we had to switch some fraternity events from cooking hotdogs/hamburgers outside to just bringing some Carry Out pizza. On top of that, the workers for that company weren't paid well, the food was typically about what you'd expect from, say, bulk purchases from Gordon Food Service, and very expensive for students. Speaking of that, IIRC if you lived on campus you had to have some form of meal plan (I assume that was also in the contract.)

mc32 6y ago

How did they do it before? The fees widely outpace inflation. It’d be nice to see state schools be affordable to kids on a part time job —which used to be the case. That’s not been the case for a few decades.

enumjorge 6y ago
That’s the thing the puzzles me. Some of these universities’ annual tuition amounts to a healthy 1 year’s salary. How did they operate when this wasn’t the case?
- gowld 6y ago
  They didn't build luxury spa resorts on campus to impress students and US News & World Report, in a mad race for govt guaranteed loan funds. Universities used to look like high schools, and still do in many parts of Europe (and at community colleges).

Bx6667 6y ago

Bullshit. Prove it. Show me a page from their books (accountants not librarians) that proves it. Then I will believe you. And you’re wrong on multiple levels because you say that money goes into “personal fitness facilities.” Oh, you mean the lavish resort-spas that have popped up on campuses suddenly? The ones that popped up around the same time that college became retardedly expensive? Yes, I believe those are the ones you are talking about. It makes you wrong because luxury time share condominiums aren’t necessary for educating people. It’s the same as if you threw those hundreds of millions in the toilet. Not “a fixed and necessary expense.” And that’s not even to mention the huge, gigantic bloat that is present everywhere and touches everything and very definitely reduces the quality of the actual academics of the school. Hey, let’s see you come up for a reason why text books cost hundreds of dollars a piece and are re-written every year with almost no changes except to the numbering of the problem set. This is going to be fantastic, better than the circus even. I should sell tickets to this comment. I am looking forward to your response.

thatcat 6y ago

The easy solution is for Unis to take an L for once and to cover costs with their enormous savings from the last 30 years of exponential growth. Those fees obviously are over actual cost to cover contingencies, a pandemic was inevitable on the time scale of a university. They probably should have gotten insurance, what do those admins do anyway if not plan for things such as this?

mrgordon 6y ago
It’s exempted from insurance but yeah they should have some reserves
gowld 6y ago
At most places, that money was already spent, not saved up. You can't buy insurance for something that cripples everyone. Math isn't magic.

vkou 6y ago

My university had a dozen computer labs that were never utilized to capacity, (One in a dedicated, multi-story building), and a library that was far bigger than any of the other buildings on campus. And, of course, all the accouterments necessary to run a physics, a chemistry, a biology, an engineering department, etc, etc, etc. All-in-market-rate-no-discount-no-subsidies-international-student tuition was ~100,000 CAD/4 years. It's true, though, we did not have a stadium that could sit 60,000 people, or two olympic-sized swimming pools, or four-star-hotel-accomodation dorms that we were for some reason forced to live in, but we also weren't paying $100,000/year in tuition.

jdeibele 6y ago

"The number of non-academic administrative and professional employees at U.S. colleges and universities has more than doubled in the last 25 years, vastly outpacing the growth in the number of students or faculty, according to an analysis of federal figures." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/higher-ed-administrators-growth_n_4738584 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/higher-ed-administrators-grow...

einpoklum 6y ago
That sounds like a cooked study, although to be honest I don't have concrete evidence, just a hunch based on what I know about the atmosphere in universities. The author of the study is a sort of a think-tank called AIR with representatives of the banking, corporate consulting and finance on the board.

alpineidyll3 6y ago

With all due respect, I don't think you've seen the finances of a the typical private US University. Admin spending has grown geometrically. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinesimon/2017/09/05/bureaucrats-and-buildings-the-case-for-why-college-is-so-expensive/#71778b5a456a https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinesimon/2017/09/05/bureau...