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Isn't it ironically racist to assign negative properties ("white fragility" and racism in particular) to an entire group of people based on their skin color? Ar

Isn't it ironically racist to assign negative properties ("white fragility" and racism in particular) to an entire group of people based on their skin color? Are we really just going to ignore that fact? The treatment of racism in the book is tantamount to original sin (we are all born as sinners:we are all born as racists [whites only]). This book [and the affiliated movement] is laying the moral foundation for the oppression of white people, who will soon be a majority minority - and already are a minority globally. What's worse, the very concept of "white fragility" is presented as a Kafkaesque, unfalsifiable trap. If you dare defend yourself against accusations of racism, well, we won't even address whether your argument is legitimate, we just dismiss your concerns as a "fragile whiteness". Just like the recent forced redefinition of racism (privilege+power), it is an intellectually dishonest concept designed to begin any argument from a position of advantage, not to actually communicate anything of substance. If you replaced "white" with "black" or "Jewish" or any other race, this would be a blatantly, undeniably offensive and hurtful text - yet not only do we champion it, but it is being used effectively as a textbook for ramming diversity and inclusion down an increasing number of throats. The fact that this book is a best seller only proves that a growing faction in society has completely gone off the deep end. Why are we letting irrational, self hating ideologues influence our society to this degree?

mindslight 6y ago
> Why are we letting irrational, self hating ideologues influence our society to this degree? How do we stop them? The modern discourse has been completely hijacked by ideologues fanning the flames of division. Divide and conquer, divide and conquer. We've got people throwing themselves into a plague because they think it's some kind of political statement! The need for social belonging has always been stronger than the survival instinct, but sheesh. I feel like it's all fundamentally the infopocalypse - pervasive fine-grained mass media is defining people's social zeitgeist more than their actual peer group. But that still doesn't point the way to a solution! It's tempting to blame the [social/incumbent] media giants for optimizing for engagement, but something tells me their bias isn't as significant as the sheer volume. The only way forward I can see is that we are all going to have to learn to adapt to the onslaught of memetic attacks and learn to ignore the feel-good (feel-something?) distractions. But it's not going to be quick process.
marklacey 6y ago
I haven’t read White Fragility and couldn’t read the entirety of the article linked here due to the paywall, so I cannot comment on those. I have been trying to educate myself about the topic recently, though, and would strongly recommend looking into some of the excellent work on systemic racism in the US if you’re interested in learning more. The documentary “13th” (available for free on YouTube at the moment), the 2nd season of the podcast Scene On Radio (“Seeing White”), and the book How to Be An Anti-Racist are three things I can recommend based on what I’ve read/heard from them so far. What you’re calling the “recent forced redefinition of racism” is not especially recent. I first heard this argument around 30 years ago, and at the time dismissed it, but now understand why people want to emphasize that over the definition I recall learning as a child which was structured along the lines of a belief in superiority of one group over another. Having a belief may impact how you feel towards someone and how you act towards them, and may even have an impact on that person if you are in a position to influence the course of their life. Having a system that is designed and reinforced to encourage disparate outcomes is far more impactful to that group as a whole. I’m not going to argue that both aren’t harmful, but I’ve certainly come around to the conclusion that systematic or policy-based racism (if you’re uncomfortable calling it racism, feel free to disregard the name and come up with something you’re more comfortable with) has disproportionately affected Black and non-black people of color in the US.
- 0xy 6y ago
  I would be willing to entertain the point that systematic racism exists if universities had roughly equivalent admission rates for all races for identical test scores, however black people tend to have significantly higher rates of admission than white people, and very significantly higher rates than Asian people. If systemic racism exists in a specific direction as you imply, why do institutions have their fingers on the scale in favor of the oppressed race? In fact, if students were treated identically without the consideration of race then black admission rates to universities would dramatically fall.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > If systemic racism exists in a specific direction as you imply, why do institutions have their fingers on the scale in favor of the oppressed race? You are literally asking “if systemic racism exists, why are specific institutions taking specific steps to correct systemic racism”. Suggesting that you think that if anyone notices and attempts to address systemic racism, then it must not exist.
kevin_b_er 6y ago
Are you white? Robin DeAngelo defines you as evil for the color of your skin. You are fundamentally evil for you skin color. You must atone for your skin color for as long as you live. You cannot be forgiven for the sin of your skin color. You may not disagree. You may not consider this over-generalization as bad, even if it is a total over generalization. Ignore class entirely, as if it has nothing to do with how to fix the problem. You are not to critically analyze, and you aren't supposed to think. No the problem is your skin color and only that. She is a divider and contemptible. What's so funny is how she's a white woman who can make broad brushstrokes but other whites cannot. This is the racism of Robin DeAngelo and those that speak like her. She's made a ton of money off being a racist and a bigot. But she's white, so I guess she gets to make money? There's some irony there. And I mean the word "racism" in its plain sense, not in whatever racist redefinition of the word racism that excuses racism on the basis of race. The problem is solved by uniting against evil, where ever it may be, and not this trash.
cylinder 6y ago
Americans are just race obsessed. There's basically no argument in the national discourse about race being a human construct with no basis in science.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  I'm not sure we should dismiss race because it has "no basis in science" - this is a very high bar; It means we shouldn't reply on it for specific, technical things, but as a lay-term there's no need to dismiss it. It's also clear that the soft science are as yet in their infancy (or teens), so that we can't find a basis now doesn't mean we can't find one in the future; I mention this b/c it's clear to me the concept of "race" needn't be about genetics.
CypherSnyper 6y ago
Love it when white supremacists and race baiters enter the chat...

mindslight 6y ago

> Why are we letting irrational, self hating ideologues influence our society to this degree? How do we stop them? The modern discourse has been completely hijacked by ideologues fanning the flames of division. Divide and conquer, divide and conquer. We've got people throwing themselves into a plague because they think it's some kind of political statement! The need for social belonging has always been stronger than the survival instinct, but sheesh. I feel like it's all fundamentally the infopocalypse - pervasive fine-grained mass media is defining people's social zeitgeist more than their actual peer group. But that still doesn't point the way to a solution! It's tempting to blame the [social/incumbent] media giants for optimizing for engagement, but something tells me their bias isn't as significant as the sheer volume. The only way forward I can see is that we are all going to have to learn to adapt to the onslaught of memetic attacks and learn to ignore the feel-good (feel-something?) distractions. But it's not going to be quick process.

marklacey 6y ago

I haven’t read White Fragility and couldn’t read the entirety of the article linked here due to the paywall, so I cannot comment on those. I have been trying to educate myself about the topic recently, though, and would strongly recommend looking into some of the excellent work on systemic racism in the US if you’re interested in learning more. The documentary “13th” (available for free on YouTube at the moment), the 2nd season of the podcast Scene On Radio (“Seeing White”), and the book How to Be An Anti-Racist are three things I can recommend based on what I’ve read/heard from them so far. What you’re calling the “recent forced redefinition of racism” is not especially recent. I first heard this argument around 30 years ago, and at the time dismissed it, but now understand why people want to emphasize that over the definition I recall learning as a child which was structured along the lines of a belief in superiority of one group over another. Having a belief may impact how you feel towards someone and how you act towards them, and may even have an impact on that person if you are in a position to influence the course of their life. Having a system that is designed and reinforced to encourage disparate outcomes is far more impactful to that group as a whole. I’m not going to argue that both aren’t harmful, but I’ve certainly come around to the conclusion that systematic or policy-based racism (if you’re uncomfortable calling it racism, feel free to disregard the name and come up with something you’re more comfortable with) has disproportionately affected Black and non-black people of color in the US.

0xy 6y ago
I would be willing to entertain the point that systematic racism exists if universities had roughly equivalent admission rates for all races for identical test scores, however black people tend to have significantly higher rates of admission than white people, and very significantly higher rates than Asian people. If systemic racism exists in a specific direction as you imply, why do institutions have their fingers on the scale in favor of the oppressed race? In fact, if students were treated identically without the consideration of race then black admission rates to universities would dramatically fall.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > If systemic racism exists in a specific direction as you imply, why do institutions have their fingers on the scale in favor of the oppressed race? You are literally asking “if systemic racism exists, why are specific institutions taking specific steps to correct systemic racism”. Suggesting that you think that if anyone notices and attempts to address systemic racism, then it must not exist.

kevin_b_er 6y ago

Are you white? Robin DeAngelo defines you as evil for the color of your skin. You are fundamentally evil for you skin color. You must atone for your skin color for as long as you live. You cannot be forgiven for the sin of your skin color. You may not disagree. You may not consider this over-generalization as bad, even if it is a total over generalization. Ignore class entirely, as if it has nothing to do with how to fix the problem. You are not to critically analyze, and you aren't supposed to think. No the problem is your skin color and only that. She is a divider and contemptible. What's so funny is how she's a white woman who can make broad brushstrokes but other whites cannot. This is the racism of Robin DeAngelo and those that speak like her. She's made a ton of money off being a racist and a bigot. But she's white, so I guess she gets to make money? There's some irony there. And I mean the word "racism" in its plain sense, not in whatever racist redefinition of the word racism that excuses racism on the basis of race. The problem is solved by uniting against evil, where ever it may be, and not this trash.

cylinder 6y ago

Americans are just race obsessed. There's basically no argument in the national discourse about race being a human construct with no basis in science.

Chris2048 6y ago
I'm not sure we should dismiss race because it has "no basis in science" - this is a very high bar; It means we shouldn't reply on it for specific, technical things, but as a lay-term there's no need to dismiss it. It's also clear that the soft science are as yet in their infancy (or teens), so that we can't find a basis now doesn't mean we can't find one in the future; I mention this b/c it's clear to me the concept of "race" needn't be about genetics.

CypherSnyper 6y ago

Love it when white supremacists and race baiters enter the chat...