6 ms·

Mpv drops GNOME support (reverted later)

121 points by smnthermes 6y ago

misnome 6y ago
I can see some people being rubbed the wrong way by the language in this post but it sounds like a reasonable criticism by someone who has gotten tired and annoyed, and seems to mostly represent accurately the discussion in that ticket. Does anyone know a decent counterpoint to this? Or an argument why Gnome is being reasonable?
- hexo 6y ago
  Well, I don't really think the Gnome is being reasonable since they've ditched 2.34 for 3.0 pre-pre-pre-alpha and started to shove their "supremacy" to everyone. I do really think this has nothing to do with normal community open source project but more like being thightly controlled by a corporation that focuses on tickets and changes for sake of doing something because someone (and their managers) has to report and prove being sallary-worthy. So the project is dissolving (itself; the linux "desktop"; and the public view about it; and what is the most important - the at least somehow unified user experience we used to have across major gui toolkits) in a highly-toxic-and-radioactive-"opinionated" egos.
  - jolmg 6y ago
    > Well, I don't really think the Gnome is being reasonable since they've ditched 2.34 for 3.0 pre-pre-pre-alpha and started to shove their "supremacy" to everyone. Do you by chance know of an article that documents that? I remember seeing one back then that compiled discussions with gnome developers from multiple sources showing that, but I've lost it since then.
    - hexo 6y ago
      I am very sorry, I don't have any. It's been a long time since then
- type0 6y ago
  > "You are only supposed to run GNOME apps on GNOME" This summarizes the problem quite well, not only that GNOME apps are often broken outside GNOME, but if you try to run non-GNOME app on GNOME (even Gtk based) you might get broken apps because system tray (AppIndicator) isn't there or some other random bs where the functionality is removed for the sake of making users frustrated. This is somewhat similar to deletionist culture of wikipedia, delete delete delete. Basically work done outside of GNOME junta isn't valued and even if accepted might be removed in the next release.
- waon 6y ago
  I looked into GNOME's gitlab discussions linked here and in the article, and I was appalled at GNOME maintainers' behavior on each and every one of them. Whenever app developers raise concerns that they don't have the adequate means to integrate with the GNOME desktop, GNOME maintainers consistently fault the developers and close the ticket without addressing the issue at all. The worst part is that despite all this, a GNOME Foundation community manager even lied about the whole thing [1], claiming that MPV never even contacted GNOME before dropping support. He also talked about how the lack of cooperation was hurting the FOSS community [2], even though many app developers including MPV did in fact share their concerns on GNOME's gitlab issue tracker [3][4] and it was GNOME maintainers that chose to ignore them. I've been using the GNOME for quite some time, but it's time for me to switch. Some applications didn't look quite right recently, and now I know the reason why. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fxc1ius/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an... [2]: https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fxauj0k/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an... [3]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/wm4 https://gitlab.gnome.org/wm4 [4]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217
  - hvis 6y ago
    The discussions indeed look harsh. But as for the idle inhibiting API, there is some (slow) progress in the form of two MRs. And they weren't closed outright, some code review took place instead: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/2226 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/2226 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/111 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/111 This message also looks relatively encouraging: https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fxc3lor/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an...
Hamuko 6y ago
Not at all surprising that wm4 committed that. He makes all of the best mpv commits anyways. Here's just a couple ones I quickly dug up: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/7d11eda72e90d7aa9df25127bd810aa7b191029c https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/7d11eda72e90d7aa9df... https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/c4dc600f1f2e08f87cf8147098c1559607464824 https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/c4dc600f1f2e08f87cf... https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/1e70e82baa9193f6f027338b0fab0f5078971fbe https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/1e70e82baa9193f6f02...
- sitzkrieg 6y ago
  holy cow that last one is work of art
  - nullc 6y ago
    I mean, he's not wrong. Existence of locale means you essentially cannot safely use standard libc string functions in library code or in threaded software, particularly when interacting with a file format where stuff like number formatting is normative. The fixes are really pretty incomplete and the result is people ending up having to ship their own implementations of these functions ... which interacts poorly with all the effort going in to harden string functions because they're a constant source of vulnerabilities. The situation for libraries that call libraries where the middle library really needs to get things right and the called library can be more YOLO about it is ... pretty absurd.
    - qalmakka 6y ago
      Add this to the fact that the vast majority of libc functions are either obsolete or simply designed for another era, and it can become a quite daunting feat trying to write C code without shooting yourself in the face. C++ isn't in a great position either (the whole std::locale fiasco is very similar), but at least the standards since C++11 have had the guts to actually attempt fixing the warts instead of simply ignoring problems altogether. All C standards since C99 have been ugly mishmashes of C++ features and bad ideas, one after another. What everyone was clearly asking them was to just copy-paste stuff from POSIX, and instead they came up with stupid nonsense like VLA or things nobody uses, like the [static N] syntax for arrays. I also still find absurd someone thought it was a good idea to add stuff as critical as threads.h without asking implementers first if they liked it (fun fact no one did). What I think is a massive indicator of how much disconnected they are from reality is the "memory safe string handling" they added in C11 with those crappy *_s functions, which a. were just annoyingly slightly different from what POSIX and Win32 had and b. used a totally lunatic error reporting system based on callbacks and `set_constraint_handler_s()` - because obviously when a call to memset_s() fails I totally want a random function to run, for what for I still don't understand after 9 years. People just wanted the BSD's _l functions, and they gave them a memcpy() that called a random callback. No wonder C2X just wants to quietly pretend these abominations nobody ever implemented never happened. What no one has ever had enough guts to admit is that 1. C strings, i.e. null-terminated strings, were a terrible mistake and 2. that C badly needs a new string library, or at least something that people can use without risking leaking their whole address space by accident.
SimilarGeneral1 6y ago
Before the posts were censored https://www.reveddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_consider_blocking_mpv_from_running_on/ https://www.reveddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_co... Original https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an... https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_consider_blocking_mpv_from_running_on/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_cons... edit: removed posts are back https://www.reveddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/ https://www.reveddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_...
- pantaloony 6y ago
  Interesting. Confirms some suspicions I had re: why my recent attempts to use Gnome under Wayland were... more interesting than I'd hoped. That exchange matches what I'd imagined their attitude must be to have produced software behaving that way. They finally managed to convert me to KDE after 20 years, so that's something.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  Thank you for the links. Somehow snew <https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner> https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_a... does not display this subthread <https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fx8vkc8/> https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_a... (nor does it have a way to let you know that it exists). I will be using your site from now on.
  - rhaksw 6y ago
    Snew hasn't been updated in a couple years, its author is focused on a decentralized reddit called https://notabug.io https://notabug.io I'm the author of https://www.reveddit.com/about/ https://www.reveddit.com/about/. It's a fork of removeddit that adds features like user pages and notifications when your content is removed.
- 6y ago
zerfall 6y ago
No matter what your preference, sabotaging a desktop environment by calling `exit();` is certainly not the way to go: you're only hurting your users.
- jolmg 6y ago
  It's not sabotaging. It's removing support.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Back in the day, that's roughly how web developers would frame it when they tried to rationalize making websites that would deliberately refuse to load if the user-agent said something other than "MSIE". Removing support is a passive action; you accomplish it by just doing nothing. Calling exit() is rather more on the aggressive side. All that said, good on 'em. I got a decent chuckle.
    - NewEntryHN 6y ago
      > Removing support is a passive action; you accomplish it by just doing nothing. Calling exit() is rather more on the aggressive side. It's more graceful than the program exiting in a bad way because you passively decided to stop support.
- phloximaxi 6y ago
  Maybe. But, he calmed down, and corrected his mistake after some rethinking. And what about gnome and gnome devs?
  - qalmakka 6y ago
    They spent the last 9 years dismantling their platform one piece at a time. I think they are too committed with their design now to admit they completely screwed up by betting on a vision it never managed to take off, and differently than Microsoft, they don't need to actually listen to their users because they don't have enterprise users they really need to sell their product to (but Red Hat does, and that's why "Gnome Classic" is still around).
qalmakka 6y ago
Since GNOME 3 has launched almost 10 ago, the whole environment has been crashing down an endless downward spiral of shortsightedness and idiocy. Replacing what was probably one of the clearest and simplest UIs ever made for an iPad-like, user-hostile interface that threw away decades of well known, polished UX was a gigantic, unforgivable middle finger to their users. A clumsy, me-too shitfest of minimalism that never managed to achieve anything but complicating computing by removing things, all for the sake of an unrealistic ideal of simplicity that nobody ever asked for. GNOME 2 was _already_ simple, intuitive and clear. It was feature rich, but easy to understand and use. GNOME 3 removed everything, feature by feature, without realising that everything was simply becoming more complicated. Having to install at least 3 extensions in order to make a desktop environment behave the way it is supposed to is asinine, and it feels like they totally forgot who their target users are. Plus, GNOME has been deliberately hostile towards anything non-GNOME for so long now that I am surprised there aren't more people out there telling them to screw themselves. GTK+ has also been monopolised by them and it's become harder release after release to keep track to what they were doing to the point that some devs actually found rewriting everything using Qt a more productive way to spend their time.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  Not only they removed everything randomly (just a few things that I remember: terminal transparency/background, search on the local directory on nautilus, zoom on gnome shell) but it is still one of the most heavy DEs (the new KDE is surprisingly light) somehow when even my DWM has more features. Sadly I have only 8GB of ram and I want to run more programs than just the gnome shell (which takes as much memory as the average electron application). As for gtk, they still have not merged the patch for thumbnails in the open file dialog.
  - pantaloony 6y ago
    > gnome shell (which takes as much memory as the average electron application). I don't know a ton about it but I assume gnome-shell is where all the JS (which I gather is a huge thing in Gnome now) runs, judging from how crashy and resource-gobbling it is. > the new KDE is surprisingly light I had a strong aversion to KDE because I never liked how it made non-K* apps feel out-of-place, and I prefer almost none of the K* apps to other (largely GTK) alternatives, plus it used to be (talking many years ago) far heavier both in feel/performance and compile time than Gnome, but yeah, that's what I've switched to, and it performs far better. "Foreign" apps no longer feel as out-of-place as they used to and with some tweaking I don't hate the appearance. What they've done to Gnome is so bizarre. I even kinda like the look & feel but damn, it's way too big a pig to be always-on on my machine.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
infinity0 6y ago
I ditched GNOME in 2015 for XFCE and haven't looked back. Their attitude is pompous and atrocious. Send them to the bins of history where they belong. Fck GNOME devs coming straight from tha underground A young hacker got it bad cos he's out of other FOSS choices so devs think They have the authority to break their reverse dependencies Fck that shit, cause I ain't the one For a brainwashed developer to be lecturing on "If you don't like it, just don't upgrade" what and use unsupported software with no security updates? Fcking with me cos I'm not an average user So I gotta put up with the preferences of pretentious designers Rearranging my workflow, oversimplifying their product Thinking every user is a fcking dumb idiot You'd rather see, me wasting time Than take responsibility for your poisonous party line. Pwn a GNOME dev with an 0-day and when I'm finished, fck with GTK to pad a hundred pixels inside every border yeah enjoy your own fcking bread and water! I don't know if they NSA Slowing hackers down, and wasting screen space And on the other hand, without FOSS they can't get jobs Cause they just failed at trying to be Steve Jobs. Dumbing down the ecosystem, training user ignorance, Spitting on those who built our community in the first place! Anonymous will rewrite Every application with a GNOME design Just cause I think more mathematically Punk designers are afraid of me! HUH, a young hacker on the warpath And when I'm finished, they'll wish they'd merged my patch when they had a chance, but now it's too late Yo J, GNOME's been replaced. Example of scene one [GNOME Dev] Pull up your goddamn debugger right now! [Hacker] Aww shit, now what the fuck they changing their API for? [GNOME Dev] Cause I feel like it! Now sit the fuck down for 16 hours and patch yo fucking software [Hacker] Man, fuck this shit [GNOME Dev] Aight smartass, I'm breaking yo entire desktop!
- craftinator 6y ago
  Congratulations!!! You win the award for least coherent comment of the month!
GoOnThenDoTell 6y ago
KDE on the other hand, is real nice these days
bfrog 6y ago
I guess I'm in that minority of people that left me when it went through the boondoggle of the early super broken 4.x releases, and started using gnome 3. Gnome 3 is distraction free to me. I don't even notice it most days. There's a few forks and there's always elementary if you want to pay for to truely support folks.
- morsch 6y ago
  You're not alone. I don't know that we're the minority. Satisfied users usually just aren't very vocal about it.
nullc 6y ago
I'm unhappy with gnome too, but I run a distro because I'd prefer to do doing something other than writing my own OS from scratch. Unfortunately, because gnome is what most people use and what the distro defaults to other choices are inherently second class. I happily used xmonad for years, but eventually got forced out of it due to compatibility especially once things started using wayland. I wonder if us desktop users need a pact of the form that we'll stop using gnome completely of 51% of other users also stop using gnome. :)

121 points by smnthermes 6y ago

I can see some people being rubbed the wrong way by the language in this post but it sounds like a reasonable criticism by someone who has gotten tired and annoyed, and seems to mostly represent accurately the discussion in that ticket. Does anyone know a decent counterpoint to this? Or an argument why Gnome is being reasonable?

hexo 6y ago
Well, I don't really think the Gnome is being reasonable since they've ditched 2.34 for 3.0 pre-pre-pre-alpha and started to shove their "supremacy" to everyone. I do really think this has nothing to do with normal community open source project but more like being thightly controlled by a corporation that focuses on tickets and changes for sake of doing something because someone (and their managers) has to report and prove being sallary-worthy. So the project is dissolving (itself; the linux "desktop"; and the public view about it; and what is the most important - the at least somehow unified user experience we used to have across major gui toolkits) in a highly-toxic-and-radioactive-"opinionated" egos.
- jolmg 6y ago
  > Well, I don't really think the Gnome is being reasonable since they've ditched 2.34 for 3.0 pre-pre-pre-alpha and started to shove their "supremacy" to everyone. Do you by chance know of an article that documents that? I remember seeing one back then that compiled discussions with gnome developers from multiple sources showing that, but I've lost it since then.
  - hexo 6y ago
    I am very sorry, I don't have any. It's been a long time since then
type0 6y ago
> "You are only supposed to run GNOME apps on GNOME" This summarizes the problem quite well, not only that GNOME apps are often broken outside GNOME, but if you try to run non-GNOME app on GNOME (even Gtk based) you might get broken apps because system tray (AppIndicator) isn't there or some other random bs where the functionality is removed for the sake of making users frustrated. This is somewhat similar to deletionist culture of wikipedia, delete delete delete. Basically work done outside of GNOME junta isn't valued and even if accepted might be removed in the next release.
waon 6y ago
I looked into GNOME's gitlab discussions linked here and in the article, and I was appalled at GNOME maintainers' behavior on each and every one of them. Whenever app developers raise concerns that they don't have the adequate means to integrate with the GNOME desktop, GNOME maintainers consistently fault the developers and close the ticket without addressing the issue at all. The worst part is that despite all this, a GNOME Foundation community manager even lied about the whole thing [1], claiming that MPV never even contacted GNOME before dropping support. He also talked about how the lack of cooperation was hurting the FOSS community [2], even though many app developers including MPV did in fact share their concerns on GNOME's gitlab issue tracker [3][4] and it was GNOME maintainers that chose to ignore them. I've been using the GNOME for quite some time, but it's time for me to switch. Some applications didn't look quite right recently, and now I know the reason why. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fxc1ius/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an... [2]: https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fxauj0k/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an... [3]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/wm4 https://gitlab.gnome.org/wm4 [4]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217
- hvis 6y ago
  The discussions indeed look harsh. But as for the idle inhibiting API, there is some (slow) progress in the form of two MRs. And they weren't closed outright, some code review took place instead: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/2226 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/2226 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/111 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/111 This message also looks relatively encouraging: https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fxc3lor/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an...

Hamuko 6y ago

Not at all surprising that wm4 committed that. He makes all of the best mpv commits anyways. Here's just a couple ones I quickly dug up: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/7d11eda72e90d7aa9df25127bd810aa7b191029c https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/7d11eda72e90d7aa9df... https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/c4dc600f1f2e08f87cf8147098c1559607464824 https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/c4dc600f1f2e08f87cf... https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/1e70e82baa9193f6f027338b0fab0f5078971fbe https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/1e70e82baa9193f6f02...

sitzkrieg 6y ago
holy cow that last one is work of art
- nullc 6y ago
  I mean, he's not wrong. Existence of locale means you essentially cannot safely use standard libc string functions in library code or in threaded software, particularly when interacting with a file format where stuff like number formatting is normative. The fixes are really pretty incomplete and the result is people ending up having to ship their own implementations of these functions ... which interacts poorly with all the effort going in to harden string functions because they're a constant source of vulnerabilities. The situation for libraries that call libraries where the middle library really needs to get things right and the called library can be more YOLO about it is ... pretty absurd.
  - qalmakka 6y ago
    Add this to the fact that the vast majority of libc functions are either obsolete or simply designed for another era, and it can become a quite daunting feat trying to write C code without shooting yourself in the face. C++ isn't in a great position either (the whole std::locale fiasco is very similar), but at least the standards since C++11 have had the guts to actually attempt fixing the warts instead of simply ignoring problems altogether. All C standards since C99 have been ugly mishmashes of C++ features and bad ideas, one after another. What everyone was clearly asking them was to just copy-paste stuff from POSIX, and instead they came up with stupid nonsense like VLA or things nobody uses, like the [static N] syntax for arrays. I also still find absurd someone thought it was a good idea to add stuff as critical as threads.h without asking implementers first if they liked it (fun fact no one did). What I think is a massive indicator of how much disconnected they are from reality is the "memory safe string handling" they added in C11 with those crappy *_s functions, which a. were just annoyingly slightly different from what POSIX and Win32 had and b. used a totally lunatic error reporting system based on callbacks and `set_constraint_handler_s()` - because obviously when a call to memset_s() fails I totally want a random function to run, for what for I still don't understand after 9 years. People just wanted the BSD's _l functions, and they gave them a memcpy() that called a random callback. No wonder C2X just wants to quietly pretend these abominations nobody ever implemented never happened. What no one has ever had enough guts to admit is that 1. C strings, i.e. null-terminated strings, were a terrible mistake and 2. that C badly needs a new string library, or at least something that people can use without risking leaking their whole address space by accident.

SimilarGeneral1 6y ago

Before the posts were censored https://www.reveddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_consider_blocking_mpv_from_running_on/ https://www.reveddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_co... Original https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/ https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an... https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_consider_blocking_mpv_from_running_on/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_cons... edit: removed posts are back https://www.reveddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/ https://www.reveddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_...

pantaloony 6y ago
Interesting. Confirms some suspicions I had re: why my recent attempts to use Gnome under Wayland were... more interesting than I'd hoped. That exchange matches what I'd imagined their attitude must be to have produced software behaving that way. They finally managed to convert me to KDE after 20 years, so that's something.
dependenttypes 6y ago
Thank you for the links. Somehow snew <https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner> https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_a... does not display this subthread <https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fx8vkc8/> https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_a... (nor does it have a way to let you know that it exists). I will be using your site from now on.
- rhaksw 6y ago
  Snew hasn't been updated in a couple years, its author is focused on a decentralized reddit called https://notabug.io https://notabug.io I'm the author of https://www.reveddit.com/about/ https://www.reveddit.com/about/. It's a fork of removeddit that adds features like user pages and notifications when your content is removed.
6y ago

zerfall 6y ago

No matter what your preference, sabotaging a desktop environment by calling `exit();` is certainly not the way to go: you're only hurting your users.

jolmg 6y ago
It's not sabotaging. It's removing support.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  Back in the day, that's roughly how web developers would frame it when they tried to rationalize making websites that would deliberately refuse to load if the user-agent said something other than "MSIE". Removing support is a passive action; you accomplish it by just doing nothing. Calling exit() is rather more on the aggressive side. All that said, good on 'em. I got a decent chuckle.
  - NewEntryHN 6y ago
    > Removing support is a passive action; you accomplish it by just doing nothing. Calling exit() is rather more on the aggressive side. It's more graceful than the program exiting in a bad way because you passively decided to stop support.
phloximaxi 6y ago
Maybe. But, he calmed down, and corrected his mistake after some rethinking. And what about gnome and gnome devs?
- qalmakka 6y ago
  They spent the last 9 years dismantling their platform one piece at a time. I think they are too committed with their design now to admit they completely screwed up by betting on a vision it never managed to take off, and differently than Microsoft, they don't need to actually listen to their users because they don't have enterprise users they really need to sell their product to (but Red Hat does, and that's why "Gnome Classic" is still around).

qalmakka 6y ago

Since GNOME 3 has launched almost 10 ago, the whole environment has been crashing down an endless downward spiral of shortsightedness and idiocy. Replacing what was probably one of the clearest and simplest UIs ever made for an iPad-like, user-hostile interface that threw away decades of well known, polished UX was a gigantic, unforgivable middle finger to their users. A clumsy, me-too shitfest of minimalism that never managed to achieve anything but complicating computing by removing things, all for the sake of an unrealistic ideal of simplicity that nobody ever asked for. GNOME 2 was _already_ simple, intuitive and clear. It was feature rich, but easy to understand and use. GNOME 3 removed everything, feature by feature, without realising that everything was simply becoming more complicated. Having to install at least 3 extensions in order to make a desktop environment behave the way it is supposed to is asinine, and it feels like they totally forgot who their target users are. Plus, GNOME has been deliberately hostile towards anything non-GNOME for so long now that I am surprised there aren't more people out there telling them to screw themselves. GTK+ has also been monopolised by them and it's become harder release after release to keep track to what they were doing to the point that some devs actually found rewriting everything using Qt a more productive way to spend their time.

dependenttypes 6y ago
Not only they removed everything randomly (just a few things that I remember: terminal transparency/background, search on the local directory on nautilus, zoom on gnome shell) but it is still one of the most heavy DEs (the new KDE is surprisingly light) somehow when even my DWM has more features. Sadly I have only 8GB of ram and I want to run more programs than just the gnome shell (which takes as much memory as the average electron application). As for gtk, they still have not merged the patch for thumbnails in the open file dialog.
- pantaloony 6y ago
  > gnome shell (which takes as much memory as the average electron application). I don't know a ton about it but I assume gnome-shell is where all the JS (which I gather is a huge thing in Gnome now) runs, judging from how crashy and resource-gobbling it is. > the new KDE is surprisingly light I had a strong aversion to KDE because I never liked how it made non-K* apps feel out-of-place, and I prefer almost none of the K* apps to other (largely GTK) alternatives, plus it used to be (talking many years ago) far heavier both in feel/performance and compile time than Gnome, but yeah, that's what I've switched to, and it performs far better. "Foreign" apps no longer feel as out-of-place as they used to and with some tweaking I don't hate the appearance. What they've done to Gnome is so bizarre. I even kinda like the look & feel but damn, it's way too big a pig to be always-on on my machine.

deleted 6y ago

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infinity0 6y ago

I ditched GNOME in 2015 for XFCE and haven't looked back. Their attitude is pompous and atrocious. Send them to the bins of history where they belong. Fck GNOME devs coming straight from tha underground A young hacker got it bad cos he's out of other FOSS choices so devs think They have the authority to break their reverse dependencies Fck that shit, cause I ain't the one For a brainwashed developer to be lecturing on "If you don't like it, just don't upgrade" what and use unsupported software with no security updates? Fcking with me cos I'm not an average user So I gotta put up with the preferences of pretentious designers Rearranging my workflow, oversimplifying their product Thinking every user is a fcking dumb idiot You'd rather see, me wasting time Than take responsibility for your poisonous party line. Pwn a GNOME dev with an 0-day and when I'm finished, fck with GTK to pad a hundred pixels inside every border yeah enjoy your own fcking bread and water! I don't know if they NSA Slowing hackers down, and wasting screen space And on the other hand, without FOSS they can't get jobs Cause they just failed at trying to be Steve Jobs. Dumbing down the ecosystem, training user ignorance, Spitting on those who built our community in the first place! Anonymous will rewrite Every application with a GNOME design Just cause I think more mathematically Punk designers are afraid of me! HUH, a young hacker on the warpath And when I'm finished, they'll wish they'd merged my patch when they had a chance, but now it's too late Yo J, GNOME's been replaced. Example of scene one [GNOME Dev] Pull up your goddamn debugger right now! [Hacker] Aww shit, now what the fuck they changing their API for? [GNOME Dev] Cause I feel like it! Now sit the fuck down for 16 hours and patch yo fucking software [Hacker] Man, fuck this shit [GNOME Dev] Aight smartass, I'm breaking yo entire desktop!

craftinator 6y ago
Congratulations!!! You win the award for least coherent comment of the month!

GoOnThenDoTell 6y ago

KDE on the other hand, is real nice these days

bfrog 6y ago

I guess I'm in that minority of people that left me when it went through the boondoggle of the early super broken 4.x releases, and started using gnome 3. Gnome 3 is distraction free to me. I don't even notice it most days. There's a few forks and there's always elementary if you want to pay for to truely support folks.

morsch 6y ago
You're not alone. I don't know that we're the minority. Satisfied users usually just aren't very vocal about it.

nullc 6y ago

I'm unhappy with gnome too, but I run a distro because I'd prefer to do doing something other than writing my own OS from scratch. Unfortunately, because gnome is what most people use and what the distro defaults to other choices are inherently second class. I happily used xmonad for years, but eventually got forced out of it due to compatibility especially once things started using wayland. I wonder if us desktop users need a pact of the form that we'll stop using gnome completely of 51% of other users also stop using gnome. :)