7 ms·

I think the point is that, with Scheme, the tool you use is less important than the thinking you do. With Java, you have to worry about your environment before

I think the point is that, with Scheme, the tool you use is less important than the thinking you do. With Java, you have to worry about your environment before you can worry about programming.

sukuriant 15y ago
That's really not fair. To start, beginning Java developers (or developers of any language) shouldn't be using a full IDE. Anything more than syntax highlighting (yes, even compiling for you), and you're losing important steps. That said, the amount of boiler plate code to do anything in Java can make it quite confusing... though, Scanner has made the input easier, and System.out.println() doesn't seem too much more than memorization.
- namdnay 15y ago
  I don't see the point of your argument. You say Java developers should intentionally cripple themselves, because they're losing "important steps". What does that even mean? I don't see why I'd lose rename, automatic inherited method shells, auto imports, generate constructors/getters/setters etc... When you buy a car, do you insist that it has manual windows and no power steering?
  - thalur 15y ago
    "When you buy a car, do you insist that it has manual windows and no power steering?" But when you are learning how a car works and trying to build one, you would start off with one with manual windows and no power steering.
  - sofuture 15y ago
    There's a difference between professionally programming and learning to program. You shouldn't ever find yourself in the situation where you think an IDE is magical and "javac" is a typo of the word "java".
Sandman 15y ago
With Java, you have to worry about your environment before you can worry about programming. You have to download the jdk and set an environment variable. Then open a text editor. That's about all the 'worrying about the environment' that you have to do before you can start programming in Java.
- masklinn 15y ago
  No, you also have to think about various command-line tools invocation (java and javac for starters) and all the boilerplate that goes around what you want to write (create a file, name it correctly, put the same name inside with a `class` statement whatever that means, then put braces everywhere and a `main` and a `String[]` which you don't know jack about) and then you have the joy of wondering why you don't see anything when you run your program (assuming you got it to compile and run) and learn about `System.out.*`. With scheme, you download Racket or whatever (equivalent to downloading the JDK), you open it, and you start typing and getting instant feedback in your window.
  - VB6_Foreverr 15y ago
    This is where vb6 shines. With vb6 you don't have to worry about anything! :)
  - Sandman 15y ago
    I'm not sure I understand you. You can't just start typing and getting instant feedback in Java simply because Java is not interpreted (well, actually, it is, but you have to compile to bytecode first). So, what you're saying about Java goes for just about any compiled language. No, you also have to think about various command-line tools invocation (java and javac for starters) Use "javac" to compile to byte code. Use "java" to run your compiled program. This is all you need to know about these tools to start programming. There are various options for using java and javac, of course, but it's not like you can't compile and run a simple program without these options. As for this part of your comment: create a file, name it correctly, put the same name inside with a `class` statement whatever that means, then put braces everywhere and a `main` and a `String[]` which you don't know jack about Yeah. You have to know a bit of Java before you actually start programming in it. If that's one of Java's shortcomings, well then, there are a lot of languages with the same shortcoming.
SkyMarshal 15y ago
Same point PG made in one of his essays about text editors vs IDE's. With the former you learn and master the language, with the latter you learn the editor and features like code completion substitute for mastering the language.
- lemming 15y ago
  This is utter bull, even if PG said it. I've learned a huge amount about Java by using an editor (Intellij) that has real time static analysis of my code and points out when I'm making common mistakes with corners of the language (calling overrideable methods during object construction, for example). It's incredibly useful and informative.
  - SkyMarshal 15y ago
    Eh, was Oliver Steele, not PG. Old essay, somehow I started attributing it to PG instead: http://osteele.com/archives/2004/11/ides http://osteele.com/archives/2004/11/ides Perhaps out of date now, given what IDE's can do, though I personally still prefer to learn a language and toolchain with a text editor, then graduate to Eclipse for the benefits you mention.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    > I've learned a huge amount about Java But did you learn a huge amount about programming?

I think the point is that, with Scheme, the tool you use is less important than the thinking you do. With Java, you have to worry about your environment before you can worry about programming.

sukuriant 15y ago

That's really not fair. To start, beginning Java developers (or developers of any language) shouldn't be using a full IDE. Anything more than syntax highlighting (yes, even compiling for you), and you're losing important steps. That said, the amount of boiler plate code to do anything in Java can make it quite confusing... though, Scanner has made the input easier, and System.out.println() doesn't seem too much more than memorization.

namdnay 15y ago
I don't see the point of your argument. You say Java developers should intentionally cripple themselves, because they're losing "important steps". What does that even mean? I don't see why I'd lose rename, automatic inherited method shells, auto imports, generate constructors/getters/setters etc... When you buy a car, do you insist that it has manual windows and no power steering?
- thalur 15y ago
  "When you buy a car, do you insist that it has manual windows and no power steering?" But when you are learning how a car works and trying to build one, you would start off with one with manual windows and no power steering.
- sofuture 15y ago
  There's a difference between professionally programming and learning to program. You shouldn't ever find yourself in the situation where you think an IDE is magical and "javac" is a typo of the word "java".

Sandman 15y ago

With Java, you have to worry about your environment before you can worry about programming. You have to download the jdk and set an environment variable. Then open a text editor. That's about all the 'worrying about the environment' that you have to do before you can start programming in Java.

masklinn 15y ago
No, you also have to think about various command-line tools invocation (java and javac for starters) and all the boilerplate that goes around what you want to write (create a file, name it correctly, put the same name inside with a `class` statement whatever that means, then put braces everywhere and a `main` and a `String[]` which you don't know jack about) and then you have the joy of wondering why you don't see anything when you run your program (assuming you got it to compile and run) and learn about `System.out.*`. With scheme, you download Racket or whatever (equivalent to downloading the JDK), you open it, and you start typing and getting instant feedback in your window.
- VB6_Foreverr 15y ago
  This is where vb6 shines. With vb6 you don't have to worry about anything! :)
- Sandman 15y ago
  I'm not sure I understand you. You can't just start typing and getting instant feedback in Java simply because Java is not interpreted (well, actually, it is, but you have to compile to bytecode first). So, what you're saying about Java goes for just about any compiled language. No, you also have to think about various command-line tools invocation (java and javac for starters) Use "javac" to compile to byte code. Use "java" to run your compiled program. This is all you need to know about these tools to start programming. There are various options for using java and javac, of course, but it's not like you can't compile and run a simple program without these options. As for this part of your comment: create a file, name it correctly, put the same name inside with a `class` statement whatever that means, then put braces everywhere and a `main` and a `String[]` which you don't know jack about Yeah. You have to know a bit of Java before you actually start programming in it. If that's one of Java's shortcomings, well then, there are a lot of languages with the same shortcoming.

SkyMarshal 15y ago

Same point PG made in one of his essays about text editors vs IDE's. With the former you learn and master the language, with the latter you learn the editor and features like code completion substitute for mastering the language.

lemming 15y ago
This is utter bull, even if PG said it. I've learned a huge amount about Java by using an editor (Intellij) that has real time static analysis of my code and points out when I'm making common mistakes with corners of the language (calling overrideable methods during object construction, for example). It's incredibly useful and informative.
- SkyMarshal 15y ago
  Eh, was Oliver Steele, not PG. Old essay, somehow I started attributing it to PG instead: http://osteele.com/archives/2004/11/ides http://osteele.com/archives/2004/11/ides Perhaps out of date now, given what IDE's can do, though I personally still prefer to learn a language and toolchain with a text editor, then graduate to Eclipse for the benefits you mention.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  > I've learned a huge amount about Java But did you learn a huge amount about programming?