8 ms·

The western economic system cannot deal with lockdowns, and more generally, any kind of stop-the-world scenarios. What will be most important now is how the we

by sddfd 6y ago

The western economic system cannot deal with lockdowns, and more generally, any kind of stop-the-world scenarios. What will be most important now is how the west will be able to deal with this crisis in comparison to China. If the Chinese system is able to deal with the crisis more effectively in economic terms, this may put the western system as a whole in jeopardy, in particular values like freedom and privacy.

groestl 6y ago
> The western economic system cannot deal with lockdowns, and more generally, any kind of stop-the-world scenarios. A strong statement, but lacking some proof. My guess is that just like mold, the economy will grow back, adapted to the new constraints. And while the players might be gone, with whatever pain that might incur, the game is still played by the ones who adapt.
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
A very good point (and I'm not a china shill). China's philosophy is The State Above The Individual, so it is willing to trade off a many more deaths, in theory. The west is The Individual Above The State (or at least to a much greater degree), so in theory we should do worse. However the west has imposed large scale quarantines so the collective is in fact valued (because most people understand them paying a some cost will benefit others). Also china is not an ant's nest, and the government can't go mad or their government will become unstable and even overthrowm. We're not so totally far apart. I don't know. My feeling in good times the west does better, in hard times authoritarianism does better. We're in a hard time. Things will change. Also china and the west are entangled economically (so you can't examine each in isolation), so if the west does worse, china suffers economically. Also china's allegedly been misusing cash - the tide's going out, who's (more) naked? It's a good question.
- ses1984 6y ago
  Quarantine doesn't necessarily benefit the state more than the individual. It benefits the collective more than the individual but the state and the collective aren't the same thing.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    How do they differ? I considered them interchangeable. BTW, polite request, if you say something like this please give a link to something that explains where I'm wrong, it means I don't have to ask for useful stuff. Thanks.
    - ses1984 6y ago
      I'm not a philosopher nor a political scientist, I'm not making a technical argument. Are you asking about the inter change ability of the state and collective? Did George Floyd benefit as much from the apparatus of government as Donald Trump? That's the difference between the state and the collective in my mind. Or are you asking about inter change ability of individual and collective? I think it's pretty obvious...
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        I guess I was unclear. > ...the state and the collective aren't the same thing What's the difference? How in your view do they differ?
        ses1984 6y ago
        The state is composed of the institutions, elected and appointed officials bureaucrats, etc. The collective includes everything else. I'm a part of the collective. I'm not a part of the state.
        throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Oh, ok. I treated them as synonymous. I can see how "the state" could mean its formal structures only, but I included everyone in it. I'll mind the distinction more carefully now.
- Taniwha 6y ago
  But that's not what we've seen is it, China has worked hard to minimize the number deaths by going really hard on a heavy lockdown early, while the US with 1/4 the population has dithered and not really mobilized the resources of its state and has 24 times as many people die as China has. I think it's more that modern China has been prepared to do everything it can to minimize death in this case and by doing a serious lockdown along with serious contact tracing they've come out early and are able to reopen their economy Some countries in the West have done the same and are in a similar state. Others have fiddled why their countries have burned.
  - 0xy 6y ago
    >has 24 times as many people die as China has This is predicated on the CCP numbers being accurate, which according to multiple intelligence sources is false. [1] They also made systematic attempts to withhold information from the WHO. [2] [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-con... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/02/china-withheld-data-coronavirus-world-health-organization-recordings-reveal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/02/china-withheld...
    - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
      This getting downvotes makes me question the authenticity of the comments above it.
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Word. I'm getting pissed off at even verifiable facts getting smacked down because someone doesn't like it.
      - Taniwha 6y ago
        I made the comment above it - I am a real person FWIW I got my numbers by googling "worldwide covid numbers by country" and picked the first entry https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ I got population numbers by googling "us population" and "china population" Feel free to repeat my experiment - people are still dying, all these numbers will change
cmsonger 6y ago
> The western economic system cannot deal with lockdowns, and more generally, any kind of stop-the-world scenarios. I kind of disagree, though it may just be a diction issue. I think it's the western political system and freedoms that can't enforce a lock down rather than the economic system. Countries that have aggressively locked down early, enforced that lockdown, and instituted privacy invasive tracing apps have been able to virtually eliminate the virus from within their borders. Compare that to the US, for example, where people are insisting on their rights to not wear a mask for purposes of protecting others. It's less about economy and more about individual freedoms and lack of state power to enforce lockdowns.
- take_a_breath 6y ago
  ==I think it's the western political system and freedoms that can't enforce a lock down rather than the economic system.== Is this true? Even within the US we have plenty of states respecting stay-at-home orders and making things like masks mandatory. Other Western democracies like Germany, Australia, New Zealand have fared pretty well.

by sddfd 6y ago

groestl 6y ago

> The western economic system cannot deal with lockdowns, and more generally, any kind of stop-the-world scenarios. A strong statement, but lacking some proof. My guess is that just like mold, the economy will grow back, adapted to the new constraints. And while the players might be gone, with whatever pain that might incur, the game is still played by the ones who adapt.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

A very good point (and I'm not a china shill). China's philosophy is The State Above The Individual, so it is willing to trade off a many more deaths, in theory. The west is The Individual Above The State (or at least to a much greater degree), so in theory we should do worse. However the west has imposed large scale quarantines so the collective is in fact valued (because most people understand them paying a some cost will benefit others). Also china is not an ant's nest, and the government can't go mad or their government will become unstable and even overthrowm. We're not so totally far apart. I don't know. My feeling in good times the west does better, in hard times authoritarianism does better. We're in a hard time. Things will change. Also china and the west are entangled economically (so you can't examine each in isolation), so if the west does worse, china suffers economically. Also china's allegedly been misusing cash - the tide's going out, who's (more) naked? It's a good question.

ses1984 6y ago
Quarantine doesn't necessarily benefit the state more than the individual. It benefits the collective more than the individual but the state and the collective aren't the same thing.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  How do they differ? I considered them interchangeable. BTW, polite request, if you say something like this please give a link to something that explains where I'm wrong, it means I don't have to ask for useful stuff. Thanks.
  - ses1984 6y ago
    I'm not a philosopher nor a political scientist, I'm not making a technical argument. Are you asking about the inter change ability of the state and collective? Did George Floyd benefit as much from the apparatus of government as Donald Trump? That's the difference between the state and the collective in my mind. Or are you asking about inter change ability of individual and collective? I think it's pretty obvious...
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      I guess I was unclear. > ...the state and the collective aren't the same thing What's the difference? How in your view do they differ?
      - ses1984 6y ago
        The state is composed of the institutions, elected and appointed officials bureaucrats, etc. The collective includes everything else. I'm a part of the collective. I'm not a part of the state.
        throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Oh, ok. I treated them as synonymous. I can see how "the state" could mean its formal structures only, but I included everyone in it. I'll mind the distinction more carefully now.
Taniwha 6y ago
But that's not what we've seen is it, China has worked hard to minimize the number deaths by going really hard on a heavy lockdown early, while the US with 1/4 the population has dithered and not really mobilized the resources of its state and has 24 times as many people die as China has. I think it's more that modern China has been prepared to do everything it can to minimize death in this case and by doing a serious lockdown along with serious contact tracing they've come out early and are able to reopen their economy Some countries in the West have done the same and are in a similar state. Others have fiddled why their countries have burned.
- 0xy 6y ago
  >has 24 times as many people die as China has This is predicated on the CCP numbers being accurate, which according to multiple intelligence sources is false. [1] They also made systematic attempts to withhold information from the WHO. [2] [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-con... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/02/china-withheld-data-coronavirus-world-health-organization-recordings-reveal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/02/china-withheld...
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    This getting downvotes makes me question the authenticity of the comments above it.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Word. I'm getting pissed off at even verifiable facts getting smacked down because someone doesn't like it.
    - Taniwha 6y ago
      I made the comment above it - I am a real person FWIW I got my numbers by googling "worldwide covid numbers by country" and picked the first entry https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ I got population numbers by googling "us population" and "china population" Feel free to repeat my experiment - people are still dying, all these numbers will change

cmsonger 6y ago

> The western economic system cannot deal with lockdowns, and more generally, any kind of stop-the-world scenarios. I kind of disagree, though it may just be a diction issue. I think it's the western political system and freedoms that can't enforce a lock down rather than the economic system. Countries that have aggressively locked down early, enforced that lockdown, and instituted privacy invasive tracing apps have been able to virtually eliminate the virus from within their borders. Compare that to the US, for example, where people are insisting on their rights to not wear a mask for purposes of protecting others. It's less about economy and more about individual freedoms and lack of state power to enforce lockdowns.

take_a_breath 6y ago
==I think it's the western political system and freedoms that can't enforce a lock down rather than the economic system.== Is this true? Even within the US we have plenty of states respecting stay-at-home orders and making things like masks mandatory. Other Western democracies like Germany, Australia, New Zealand have fared pretty well.