7 ms·

As several people have pointed out, both the "Personal" and "Catalyst" licenses are intended for personal use only, making this quite an expensive product shoul

by hkh28 6y ago

As several people have pointed out, both the "Personal" and "Catalyst" licenses are intended for personal use only, making this quite an expensive product should I want to use it for work as well. But in the full license text, there seems to be an even more problematic phrasing: > The use of OBSIDIAN for the exercise of your own trade or profession (...) does not qualify as personal use. I would interpret this to mean that I as a developer can not use this to exercise the "trade" of software development. That would in turn mean that I can not use this to make notes of stuff I learn on my own time, if it is related to software development. I would imagine most people not caring about this kind of license limitation, but it would be interesting if it was intended this way, or if this is just me being bad at licenses.

ddrdrck_ 6y ago
Commercial license is 50$ per year. Not even 5 bucks per month. I do not think this qualifies as "expensive", especially if you intend to use it for work related stuff
- fao_ 6y ago
  I mean, if you're in a software job, sure. But in total for a year, it's almost 1 month worth of rent in the city that's close to me.
  - Waterluvian 6y ago
    Rent is $50 a month?
    - fao_ 6y ago
      whups! corrected
      - Aeolun 6y ago
        I don’t think the message really changed?
        fao_ 6y ago
        "But in total for a year," In other words, a year's worth of this (which is based off the idea that you would actually be using it. If you plan to use something you don't just stop using it after a month), is an entire month's worth of rent that you could pay instead. Or maybe a different perspective, a month's worth of this is the same price as a month's worth of groceries.
        Waterluvian 6y ago
        The service is $50 per year. unless I’m also confused here.
        fao_ 6y ago
        When I read it it was 50$ per month, so many they have changed their pricing? Or I could have misread? fake edit: yes, they reviewed their pricing since I read it. the "sync" tier used to be at the 50$ mark.
- colinjoy 6y ago
  If you are going to use it as a knowledge base, you are probably looking at a few years of use. Currently the closest match to this software I have installed is Quiver. Let’s compare costs over a period of 5 years: Quiver: $9.99 Obsidian: $250.00 That may not be a lot of money to you personally, but it fits my mental model of “expensive” pretty well.
  - quickthrower2 6y ago
    Does Quiver solve the same problems? Sorry it's a hard word to Google so not sure I found the app you are thinking of. 50/y is definitely a think about it and review yearly when budgeting type of expense as a personal expense, because all those recurring expenses add up! But as a business expense, if a $100k/y dev asks for a $50 tool I think their boss will say "why you waste my time asking, just get it and we'll pay for it".
    - pedoh 6y ago
      I suspect OP is talking about this: https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki (there's a link to an iOS app there)
    - colinjoy 6y ago
      I would say Quiver targets the same problem space. There’s some overlap and there are some healthy differences. I didn’t mention it to propose it as an alternative, but to illustrate that “expensive” is not just about absolute cost. https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki
    - ncallaway 6y ago
      My biggest problem is the license is pretty strict, so I don't really have room to try it and see if it works for me. 90% of my notes are work related, so I don't really generate enough "hobby" notes to stress the tool and see if I want to use it. I'm not going to drop $50 to try and it and see if I like it. I'm also not going to violate their license to see if I like it. I wish there were a trial for the commercial version. 14 or 30 days would be really useful as an evaluation period. Without being able to try it before I buy, though, it ends up being a pass from me even though $50 isn't _that_ expensive.
- prepend 6y ago
  I disagree. $50 for note taking app only is expensive compared to something like Google Docs which does much more functionality and includes cloud storage. The product is applicable to anyone who needs a knowledge base so it’s $50/employee and that adds up quickly. While the developer is free to charge whatever they like, I don’t like the trend of these products priced based on people thinking $50 isn’t that much and that spiraling into what should be a one time fee to every piece of software being $50/year forever. This reminds me of the 4 hour workweek where there’s a plan to create recurring streams of revenue for little to no work. I think the amount of time put into this product doesn’t warrant that price. Even though I think it’s a really neat product.
  - ubercow13 6y ago
    Yeah. Photoshop is only $10/mo. Many IntelliJ IDEs are $12.50/mo and you get to keep them if you stop paying. Both of those are core revenue drivers for many of the employees who use them. $4/mo is quite expensive for a markdown editor IMO.
    - prepend 6y ago
      I think it’s cool that the markdown still works when I stop paying. Imagine if the author of grep charged $5/month for the utility.
ericax 6y ago
Hi there! Sorry it's our first time doing a license like this. If I understand correctly, licenses are usually written more strictly for legal purposes, but in my opinion your use case sounds like it should belong to personal use. If anyone has pointers for us to make the license text more clear, please let me know!
- Xophmeister 6y ago
  Licenses are written by people versed in the appropriate laws. That’s why they come across as “more strict”, for precision’s sake. However, one should be very careful about trying to emulate legal precision just by virtue of stricter language.
- _frkl 6y ago
  I would not write my own license. I'd really recommend you get a lawyer look over the text you have (that shouldn't be too expensive, it's a one time cost), or look at existing ones that are actually written by lawyers. For a public license (to restrict commercial use), I'd recommend both LicenseZero Prosperity ( https://prosperitylicense.com/versions/3.0.0 https://prosperitylicense.com/versions/3.0.0 ) and the Polyform licenses ( https://polyformproject.org/ https://polyformproject.org/ ). For the private license, you could use/adapt the LicenseZero Private license ( https://licensezero.com/licenses/private https://licensezero.com/licenses/private ). Those are more geared towards developer tools, so I'm not sure whether they'd be a good fit for your product. But all of them are written in simple to understand language so you should be able to figure that out by youself, and at the very least get a few pointers. If not, that is considered a bug with the license, and both projects are very open to feedback.
  - cxr 6y ago
    Obsidian folks: please don't use any of the aforementioned licenses. The reality is that they're _not_ a good fit (although the author would probably love to get you as a client to handle your EULA and convince you to use one of the others for your eventually-open-source plans, and that would be an even worse idea).
Reelin 6y ago
If we're internet armchair lawyering then I'd point out that a carpenter building something is "exercising their trade or profession" but a carpenter reading a textbook or watching a how-to video is not. Analogously, a salaried software developer learning something and taking notes on their own time would be in the clear but a freelance developer tracking their projects or clients would be in violation. What's not clear is how it applies to a salaried developer learning something and taking notes on the job (ie is time provided for professional development part of practicing your trade or merely a perk?) or a freelance developer using this product at all (same issue as previous scenario, except now it's not even clear where your job ends and personal time begins).
- GuiA 6y ago
  What about a carpenter testing out new techniques in their garage and taking notes as they go - are they exercising their trade?
  - Reelin 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify. To my mind that's training or study of a trade which is distinct from practicing (ie getting paid for) it. Where it gets weird is cases where the delineation between practice and study is unclear. Researchers are professionally employed to study things. On the clock professional development is study, but it's paid for by your employer. Freelancers manage their own time making even the distinction between paid and unpaid work unclear in some cases - were you studying as part of a current contract, or to better prepare yourself to take on similar work in the future?
  - stronglikedan 6y ago
    If you ain't getting paid, you ain't doing trade.

by hkh28 6y ago

ddrdrck_ 6y ago

Commercial license is 50$ per year. Not even 5 bucks per month. I do not think this qualifies as "expensive", especially if you intend to use it for work related stuff

fao_ 6y ago
I mean, if you're in a software job, sure. But in total for a year, it's almost 1 month worth of rent in the city that's close to me.
- Waterluvian 6y ago
  Rent is $50 a month?
  - fao_ 6y ago
    whups! corrected
    - Aeolun 6y ago
      I don’t think the message really changed?
      - fao_ 6y ago
        "But in total for a year," In other words, a year's worth of this (which is based off the idea that you would actually be using it. If you plan to use something you don't just stop using it after a month), is an entire month's worth of rent that you could pay instead. Or maybe a different perspective, a month's worth of this is the same price as a month's worth of groceries.
        Waterluvian 6y ago
        The service is $50 per year. unless I’m also confused here.
        fao_ 6y ago
        When I read it it was 50$ per month, so many they have changed their pricing? Or I could have misread? fake edit: yes, they reviewed their pricing since I read it. the "sync" tier used to be at the 50$ mark.
colinjoy 6y ago
If you are going to use it as a knowledge base, you are probably looking at a few years of use. Currently the closest match to this software I have installed is Quiver. Let’s compare costs over a period of 5 years: Quiver: $9.99 Obsidian: $250.00 That may not be a lot of money to you personally, but it fits my mental model of “expensive” pretty well.
- quickthrower2 6y ago
  Does Quiver solve the same problems? Sorry it's a hard word to Google so not sure I found the app you are thinking of. 50/y is definitely a think about it and review yearly when budgeting type of expense as a personal expense, because all those recurring expenses add up! But as a business expense, if a $100k/y dev asks for a $50 tool I think their boss will say "why you waste my time asking, just get it and we'll pay for it".
  - pedoh 6y ago
    I suspect OP is talking about this: https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki (there's a link to an iOS app there)
  - colinjoy 6y ago
    I would say Quiver targets the same problem space. There’s some overlap and there are some healthy differences. I didn’t mention it to propose it as an alternative, but to illustrate that “expensive” is not just about absolute cost. https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki https://github.com/HappenApps/Quiver/wiki
  - ncallaway 6y ago
    My biggest problem is the license is pretty strict, so I don't really have room to try it and see if it works for me. 90% of my notes are work related, so I don't really generate enough "hobby" notes to stress the tool and see if I want to use it. I'm not going to drop $50 to try and it and see if I like it. I'm also not going to violate their license to see if I like it. I wish there were a trial for the commercial version. 14 or 30 days would be really useful as an evaluation period. Without being able to try it before I buy, though, it ends up being a pass from me even though $50 isn't _that_ expensive.
prepend 6y ago
I disagree. $50 for note taking app only is expensive compared to something like Google Docs which does much more functionality and includes cloud storage. The product is applicable to anyone who needs a knowledge base so it’s $50/employee and that adds up quickly. While the developer is free to charge whatever they like, I don’t like the trend of these products priced based on people thinking $50 isn’t that much and that spiraling into what should be a one time fee to every piece of software being $50/year forever. This reminds me of the 4 hour workweek where there’s a plan to create recurring streams of revenue for little to no work. I think the amount of time put into this product doesn’t warrant that price. Even though I think it’s a really neat product.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Yeah. Photoshop is only $10/mo. Many IntelliJ IDEs are $12.50/mo and you get to keep them if you stop paying. Both of those are core revenue drivers for many of the employees who use them. $4/mo is quite expensive for a markdown editor IMO.
  - prepend 6y ago
    I think it’s cool that the markdown still works when I stop paying. Imagine if the author of grep charged $5/month for the utility.

ericax 6y ago

Hi there! Sorry it's our first time doing a license like this. If I understand correctly, licenses are usually written more strictly for legal purposes, but in my opinion your use case sounds like it should belong to personal use. If anyone has pointers for us to make the license text more clear, please let me know!

Xophmeister 6y ago
Licenses are written by people versed in the appropriate laws. That’s why they come across as “more strict”, for precision’s sake. However, one should be very careful about trying to emulate legal precision just by virtue of stricter language.
_frkl 6y ago
I would not write my own license. I'd really recommend you get a lawyer look over the text you have (that shouldn't be too expensive, it's a one time cost), or look at existing ones that are actually written by lawyers. For a public license (to restrict commercial use), I'd recommend both LicenseZero Prosperity ( https://prosperitylicense.com/versions/3.0.0 https://prosperitylicense.com/versions/3.0.0 ) and the Polyform licenses ( https://polyformproject.org/ https://polyformproject.org/ ). For the private license, you could use/adapt the LicenseZero Private license ( https://licensezero.com/licenses/private https://licensezero.com/licenses/private ). Those are more geared towards developer tools, so I'm not sure whether they'd be a good fit for your product. But all of them are written in simple to understand language so you should be able to figure that out by youself, and at the very least get a few pointers. If not, that is considered a bug with the license, and both projects are very open to feedback.
- cxr 6y ago
  Obsidian folks: please don't use any of the aforementioned licenses. The reality is that they're _not_ a good fit (although the author would probably love to get you as a client to handle your EULA and convince you to use one of the others for your eventually-open-source plans, and that would be an even worse idea).

Reelin 6y ago

If we're internet armchair lawyering then I'd point out that a carpenter building something is "exercising their trade or profession" but a carpenter reading a textbook or watching a how-to video is not. Analogously, a salaried software developer learning something and taking notes on their own time would be in the clear but a freelance developer tracking their projects or clients would be in violation. What's not clear is how it applies to a salaried developer learning something and taking notes on the job (ie is time provided for professional development part of practicing your trade or merely a perk?) or a freelance developer using this product at all (same issue as previous scenario, except now it's not even clear where your job ends and personal time begins).

GuiA 6y ago
What about a carpenter testing out new techniques in their garage and taking notes as they go - are they exercising their trade?
- Reelin 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify. To my mind that's training or study of a trade which is distinct from practicing (ie getting paid for) it. Where it gets weird is cases where the delineation between practice and study is unclear. Researchers are professionally employed to study things. On the clock professional development is study, but it's paid for by your employer. Freelancers manage their own time making even the distinction between paid and unpaid work unclear in some cases - were you studying as part of a current contract, or to better prepare yourself to take on similar work in the future?
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  If you ain't getting paid, you ain't doing trade.