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How do you buy hardware? I’m genuinely asking because where I live it’s impossible to buy stuff that wasn’t made in China. It’s almost impossible to lead en et

by virvar 6y ago

How do you buy hardware? I’m genuinely asking because where I live it’s impossible to buy stuff that wasn’t made in China. It’s almost impossible to lead en ethical life in this day and age if you do anything related to tech.

ddevault 6y ago
I try to avoid buying Chinese products, but unfortunately I end up doing so more often than I'd like. But ultimately, my lifetime contribution to the Chinese regime of a few thousand dollars worth of consumer products pales in comparison to the lifetime contribution of millions of dollars of capital that each Google employee is raising for the company to spend on directly supporting the regime with censorship and surveillance tools.
ekianjo 6y ago
> I’m genuinely asking because where I live it’s impossible to buy stuff that wasn’t made in China. So wait, now buying something that was made in China means condoning the CCP? That's a pretty big jump in logic.
- teknologist 6y ago
  The CCP’s claim to legitimacy is based on continued economic growth in the PRC. Buying made in China products supports this economic growth, and also the cheap, often exploitative, labor that went into producing them. Besides, you should probably support the local manufacturing industry wherever you’re living.
  - throwaway511543 6y ago
    And democracy's legitamacy is derived from monkeys voting in a system rigged against them, after listening to false promises of growth. While still supporting cheap, often exploitative labor. I mean, from your description, I'd rather want a system that actually shows continued growth, rather than hollowed promises of growth. Let's be honest here, democracy's real growth had been going to war with nations and extracting/exploiting resources from them. Hence why the past 50 years, there has been no real growth in democratic countries because they are not able to as easily extract from the rest of the world.
    - fastball 6y ago
      What exactly are you defining as "real growth" in order to come to the fantastic conclusion that there hasn't been any? I'm also fairly certain that the US (and other countries) have been warring a lot in the Middle East in the past 50 years, and many people claim that this is directly related to oil, an "exploited resource". Has that not been happening either?
    - throwaway511543 6y ago
      Real growth as in 850 million out of poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China so much so that when people such as Bill Gates talk about the vanishing poverty, it mainly comes from China. Whereas here in the UK, one of the biggest growths has been food banks and charities. Also, please don't call the US as the whole of the "west", I personally find that insulting to compare such a warlike nation with much of civilised Europe.
- fastball 6y ago
  Is it? You are effectively funding the CCP every time you purchase something from China.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    I am paying my taxes to my government as well, does not mean I agree with everything my government does. When it comes to purchasing certain categories of items (like electronics) you have no choice but to buy something made in China, most of the time.
    - fastball 6y ago
      Yes, by paying taxes you are supporting the government you are paying your taxes too. And yes, this leads to paying for things you disagree with if you do not agree with some of your country's policies. Hopefully, however, you have a voice (vote) in that government. The same obviously does not apply to you with China, nor generally does it apply to Chinese people within China. You also generally have less choice when it comes to paying taxes, and significantly more choice when it comes to not buying things from China. If there are no non-Chinese alternative for X item, you can always choose to not buy X. However, that probably means not buying quite a few things, as you point out. But that was GC's point – it is fairly hard as a techie to not support the CCP. But just because something is hard to avoid does not mean you aren't doing it or aren't responsible for doing it.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  Similar to the jump that working on the YouTube moderation toolkit is condoning the CCP, yes.
  - pgodzin 6y ago
    Or any other department at Google apparently
bradly 6y ago
> It’s almost impossible to lead en ethical life in this day and age if you do anything related to tech. That doesn't change that an engineer in the bay area can choose to work for Google or choose to find an alternative place of employment. People can choose more ethical choices without living in a pure ethical panacea.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  Sure, but then we're back to "What mental gymnastics do techies do to justify buying hardware they know is made in sweatshop conditions in China?" Take that template and apply it to Googlers. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism; everyone has compromised a rigid belief structure somewhere.
  - bradly 6y ago
    I don't think it has to be mental gymnastics, but you are right that it is a real challenge. I think people (especially those in privileged positions like engs in the bay area) should feel empowered to think and decide their line as to what they want to support and contribute to the world.
    - bradlys 6y ago
      Hey alter-me, it's a nice thought. But, realistically, many people are faced with living a subpar life in the bay area (rent small apartments for the rest of your life) or working for a big corp and living a better life (own a home - can afford many things). It's not like these people are going to find a company that is perfectly ethical on every side while also still paying $400k+/yr for senior software engineers. A lot of engineers are wage slaves as much as anyone else. It's not like everyone wants to do this stuff. EDIT: On a more personal note - I hope your name is actually "Bradly" and you're not "Bradley". And that you actually go by that in real life instead of "Brad". As I know there's some "Brad"s out there that like to buy up Bradly variations without actually going by it. It's killing me.
      - 6y ago
reaperducer 6y ago
It’s almost impossible to lead en ethical life in this day and age if you do anything related to tech. So the lesson is: Being ethical in one way is hard, so don't bother being ethical in any aspect of your life?
- virvar 6y ago
  Not necessarily, but if you can justify one thing for yourself then it should help you understand why other people behave similarly. Whether buying hardware or working for google is worse is another debate, but you should be able to see why people can work at google and not necessarily feel guilty about it.
- seankimdesign 6y ago
  No, the lesson is take a hard look at yourself before casting stones at "others". We can sit here and say that people who work at Google are so amoral, so are those at Twitter, at Apple, at Uber, at Microsoft, at Amazon, etc. The truth is most for-profit organization will not have a flawless ethical image that satisfied everyone, and that probably includes your employer. I'm not saying we should all look the other way, but let's keep things grounded in reality. Censorship is a delicate subject, especially as it concerns expressions involvong multiple cultures. This doesn't make Google immediately evil for electing to / not electing to act one way or another. Maybe your accusation is that Google is choosing profit over ethics in this case? Then the "Chinese hardware" argument has to come into play. Are you, yourself choosing price and convenience when you know it means your dollars are ending up in those poorly run Chinese factories? What are you going to do about it? Should Googlers quit their jobs before or after you source all your hardware from ethically run, blame-free factories?

by virvar 6y ago

ddevault 6y ago

I try to avoid buying Chinese products, but unfortunately I end up doing so more often than I'd like. But ultimately, my lifetime contribution to the Chinese regime of a few thousand dollars worth of consumer products pales in comparison to the lifetime contribution of millions of dollars of capital that each Google employee is raising for the company to spend on directly supporting the regime with censorship and surveillance tools.

ekianjo 6y ago

> I’m genuinely asking because where I live it’s impossible to buy stuff that wasn’t made in China. So wait, now buying something that was made in China means condoning the CCP? That's a pretty big jump in logic.

teknologist 6y ago
The CCP’s claim to legitimacy is based on continued economic growth in the PRC. Buying made in China products supports this economic growth, and also the cheap, often exploitative, labor that went into producing them. Besides, you should probably support the local manufacturing industry wherever you’re living.
- throwaway511543 6y ago
  And democracy's legitamacy is derived from monkeys voting in a system rigged against them, after listening to false promises of growth. While still supporting cheap, often exploitative labor. I mean, from your description, I'd rather want a system that actually shows continued growth, rather than hollowed promises of growth. Let's be honest here, democracy's real growth had been going to war with nations and extracting/exploiting resources from them. Hence why the past 50 years, there has been no real growth in democratic countries because they are not able to as easily extract from the rest of the world.
  - fastball 6y ago
    What exactly are you defining as "real growth" in order to come to the fantastic conclusion that there hasn't been any? I'm also fairly certain that the US (and other countries) have been warring a lot in the Middle East in the past 50 years, and many people claim that this is directly related to oil, an "exploited resource". Has that not been happening either?
  - throwaway511543 6y ago
    Real growth as in 850 million out of poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China so much so that when people such as Bill Gates talk about the vanishing poverty, it mainly comes from China. Whereas here in the UK, one of the biggest growths has been food banks and charities. Also, please don't call the US as the whole of the "west", I personally find that insulting to compare such a warlike nation with much of civilised Europe.
fastball 6y ago
Is it? You are effectively funding the CCP every time you purchase something from China.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  I am paying my taxes to my government as well, does not mean I agree with everything my government does. When it comes to purchasing certain categories of items (like electronics) you have no choice but to buy something made in China, most of the time.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Yes, by paying taxes you are supporting the government you are paying your taxes too. And yes, this leads to paying for things you disagree with if you do not agree with some of your country's policies. Hopefully, however, you have a voice (vote) in that government. The same obviously does not apply to you with China, nor generally does it apply to Chinese people within China. You also generally have less choice when it comes to paying taxes, and significantly more choice when it comes to not buying things from China. If there are no non-Chinese alternative for X item, you can always choose to not buy X. However, that probably means not buying quite a few things, as you point out. But that was GC's point – it is fairly hard as a techie to not support the CCP. But just because something is hard to avoid does not mean you aren't doing it or aren't responsible for doing it.
shadowgovt 6y ago
Similar to the jump that working on the YouTube moderation toolkit is condoning the CCP, yes.
- pgodzin 6y ago
  Or any other department at Google apparently

bradly 6y ago

> It’s almost impossible to lead en ethical life in this day and age if you do anything related to tech. That doesn't change that an engineer in the bay area can choose to work for Google or choose to find an alternative place of employment. People can choose more ethical choices without living in a pure ethical panacea.

shadowgovt 6y ago
Sure, but then we're back to "What mental gymnastics do techies do to justify buying hardware they know is made in sweatshop conditions in China?" Take that template and apply it to Googlers. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism; everyone has compromised a rigid belief structure somewhere.
- bradly 6y ago
  I don't think it has to be mental gymnastics, but you are right that it is a real challenge. I think people (especially those in privileged positions like engs in the bay area) should feel empowered to think and decide their line as to what they want to support and contribute to the world.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Hey alter-me, it's a nice thought. But, realistically, many people are faced with living a subpar life in the bay area (rent small apartments for the rest of your life) or working for a big corp and living a better life (own a home - can afford many things). It's not like these people are going to find a company that is perfectly ethical on every side while also still paying $400k+/yr for senior software engineers. A lot of engineers are wage slaves as much as anyone else. It's not like everyone wants to do this stuff. EDIT: On a more personal note - I hope your name is actually "Bradly" and you're not "Bradley". And that you actually go by that in real life instead of "Brad". As I know there's some "Brad"s out there that like to buy up Bradly variations without actually going by it. It's killing me.
    - 6y ago

reaperducer 6y ago

It’s almost impossible to lead en ethical life in this day and age if you do anything related to tech. So the lesson is: Being ethical in one way is hard, so don't bother being ethical in any aspect of your life?

virvar 6y ago
Not necessarily, but if you can justify one thing for yourself then it should help you understand why other people behave similarly. Whether buying hardware or working for google is worse is another debate, but you should be able to see why people can work at google and not necessarily feel guilty about it.
seankimdesign 6y ago
No, the lesson is take a hard look at yourself before casting stones at "others". We can sit here and say that people who work at Google are so amoral, so are those at Twitter, at Apple, at Uber, at Microsoft, at Amazon, etc. The truth is most for-profit organization will not have a flawless ethical image that satisfied everyone, and that probably includes your employer. I'm not saying we should all look the other way, but let's keep things grounded in reality. Censorship is a delicate subject, especially as it concerns expressions involvong multiple cultures. This doesn't make Google immediately evil for electing to / not electing to act one way or another. Maybe your accusation is that Google is choosing profit over ethics in this case? Then the "Chinese hardware" argument has to come into play. Are you, yourself choosing price and convenience when you know it means your dollars are ending up in those poorly run Chinese factories? What are you going to do about it? Should Googlers quit their jobs before or after you source all your hardware from ethically run, blame-free factories?