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Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton mas

by mcsb4 6y ago

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just against pollution (i.e. Thailand). The moment we open our mouth we spread germs, even more so when we speak. And when we touch our nose or mouth, we have them on our hands. Thus entering a supermarket without a mask and without first disinfecting the hands should be forbidden. Social distancing is one thing, stopping the virus at the source is another and seemingly very effective measure.

raaaaraaaa12 6y ago
We have face mask mandatory now in Czech Republic, Italy scared us and goverment reacted quickly. Its not over yet but we are on the right track. https://news.expats.cz/health-medical/breaking-face-coverings-to-be-mandatory-in-all-public-spaces-across-the-czech-republic-as-of-midnight/ https://news.expats.cz/health-medical/breaking-face-covering...
- aneutron 6y ago
  Can you please attest to the correctness of the news about the Czech government stealing a shipment of masks that was meant to be delivered to Italy [1] ? If so, is there something the "outsiders" are missing (e.g. some political bs between the two countries) ? Or is it just plain old theft ? [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-czech-italy/czechs-send-facemasks-to-italy-after-mix-up-over-chinese-gift-idUSKBN21A2AW https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-czech-...
  - raaaaraaaa12 6y ago
    https://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffrs/why-chinese-masks-destined-for-italy-were-seized-not-stolen-by-czech-authorities https://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffrs/why-chinese-masks-... Czech authorities during a customs raid last Tuesday mistakenly seized 101,600 facemasks gifted by a branch of the Red Cross in eastern China to a Chinese community in Italy. Although Czech officials apologized for the mix-up, the Italian newspaper La Repubblica on Sunday published a bogus article claiming the Czech state had “stolen” that shipment – and much more. Czechs would send 110,000 facemasks to Italy on Monday (March 23), dispatched along with an evacuation bus of 43 Italian nationals heading home, as agreed with the Italian Embassy in Prague. --- My comment is that our goverment officials or those policemans are probably stupid...
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      > --- My comment is that our goverment officials or those policemans are probably stupid... Or they thought "better safe than sorry", given that smugglers aren't stupid and you can't just believe it was sent by Red Cross just because the courier says so. If anything, I'd ask why La Repubblica published a bogus article.
      - hguant 6y ago
        >If anything, I'd ask why La Repubblica published a bogus article. Seasons come and go, but click bait is eternal
  - rat9988 6y ago
    Why does he have to? You can do your research on internet nowadays and be just as well informed as him.
    - ttoinou 6y ago
      Not the whole world speaks your language :-)
    - rfrey 6y ago
      A good faith interpretation of aneutron's comment is that they heard this report on Reuters; saw the author is from the Czech Republic and thought it was a good opportunity to find out about "local news" on the issue to get a different perspective. Agree it sounded confrontational, but it probably wasn't.
      - aneutron 6y ago
        You are correct. There are generally some "hidden" fact. Like some news outlets try to run the story as something that it isn't. It was not confrontational at all.
  - krab 6y ago
    It's not clear how the masks appeared in that storage. It may be well possible the masks were stolen by somebody who wanted to sell them. The company owning the storage didn't comment. The masks were sent to Italy within a few days.
- Kiro 6y ago
  How does that work when it's impossible to buy masks anywhere?
  - i_am_proteus 6y ago
    A t-shirt or bandana or scarf will make an excellent makeshift mask. This is not the equivalent of an N95 mask that should be used by health care professionals, but is good for ordinary citizens in public.
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      Yep, especially as the main purpose of the mask is to protect you from potentially infecting others. Asymptomatic carriers are a huge problem for the coronavirus pandemic - people might be spreading it without knowing and might only get ill much later. By using even a very rudimentary mask, the infected droplets have it much harder to get out to other people and to contaminate surfaces. Also you are less likely to touch your face, so less hand contamination & thus less surface contamination. Of course this only works if everyone has a mask, but given how easy it is to make simple cloth masks I think this is a fully reasonable requirement.
  - krab 6y ago
    A lot of people was/is sewing them at home. My wife (data scientist in a normal life) made some for our family incl. grandparents and also for some neighbours. A link from a local "Etsy" [1]. The government even made an exception so the sewing supplies shops could open. [1]: https://www.fler.cz/zbozi/oboustranna-rouska-11339514 https://www.fler.cz/zbozi/oboustranna-rouska-11339514
  - largespoon 6y ago
    Try aliexepress
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > Try aliexepress I'd be surprised if that worked at all. At least one Chinese ecommerce website is preventing foreign IPs from even viewing item listings for masks. When you try to view the item from the search results, it gives you an error saying something like export is prohibited. Also China has pretty much shut down air travel to the country to prevent "imported cases," so air freight capacity from is greatly reduced: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/world/asia/china-virus-travel-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/world/asia/china-virus-tr...: > The halt to almost all international passenger flights in and out of China will make it even harder for other countries to import N95 respirators, disposable surgical masks and other personal protection gear from China for their own doctors and nurses. About half the world’s airfreight typically moves in the bellies of passenger aircraft, while the rest travels aboard air freighters. > Previous, large-scale cancellations of passenger air services to China have already created an acute shortage of air cargo capacity over the past two weeks.
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
I've read repeatedly (and heard on the radio several times) that wearing a mask if YOU are infected will help protect other people, but if you are not infected then it has no known protective effect ie. is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one. Do you have any evidence to back up you talk of masks? (And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway) Edit: I was thinking of non-medical situations. @j7ake below, clearly pointed out they work in medical situations, something I was not contesting at all but did not make clear. The original post talked of "wearing masks in public" which was clearly not in medical situations and I was following through that.
- raaaaraaaa12 6y ago
  Yes that's right even your own DIY face mask protect other people. And that's enough to slow down spreading... You dont know for first ~5-6 days whether you are infected or not. https://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-making-diy-face-masks-amidst-shortages-due-to-coronavirus-2020 https://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-making-diy-face-m... Don't worry too much about effectiveness of DIY face masks - in few months Respilon and other Czech companies will put on market face masks made from nanomaterials which filters virus much more effectively ;)
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Valid rebuttal, thanks. OK, I think that the mask over your own face is to prevent viral spread in largish water particles caused by coughs and sneezes, not general breathing (I'm not sure general breathing spreads much virus anyway, but I don't know). So if you are infected and not showing symptoms ie. not coughing/sneezing then arguably the mask is not doing anything. Arguably not, but we need more data - can anyone comment with sources?
    - Lewton 6y ago
      > not coughing/sneezing then arguably the mask is not doing anything. People cough and sneeze all the time even if they're not sick.....
    - 6y ago
kijin 6y ago
To add a bit more data to your assertion, most of the 9,000 cases in South Korea can be traced to a handful of gatherings where people didn't wear masks. First there was the cult in Daegu, where believers are not allowed to cover their faces because apparently their god can't see through fabric. Mass infections also occurred in churches where people took off their masks to eat or sing together, or tried to "sanitize" one another's mouths with a folk remedy. A gym in Cheonan was responsible for the majority of cases in that province, and recently there was a small burst of cases in an insurance company call center in Seoul. Meanwhile, the subway in Seoul is just as packed with people as always, but I haven't heard of a single case that was conclusively traced to the subway. Why? Everyone wears a mask when riding the subway and sanitize their hands afterward. Masks have been so effective that the Korean government has even stopped publishing locations that were visited by infected people if they are known to have worn a mask while visiting them. Yes, they still track down each and every case outside of the Daegu area.
- casperc 6y ago
  Any chance you have some sources on this? There a lot of talking around the subject of masks, but I don't have any articles or similar to show people when discussing this.
  - kijin 6y ago
    The bit about masks is my own conclusion based on a lot of different local sources. The closest thing to a comprehensive source about the distribution of infections in South Korea that I can find is [1], which still contains too much Korean-in-a-canvas that can't be automatically translated: 54.6% of cases are related to the Shincheonji cult 0.5+0.7+0.5% various other churches and religious groups 1.3% Daenam Hospital (almost all cases occurred in the psychiatric ward, as well as the attached funeral home where the Shincheonji cult leader held his brother's funeral) 1.2% related to gyms 1.2% related to the call center in Guro-gu 3.6% nursing homes 6.3% related to other mass infections (this includes other call centers, nursing homes, etc.) 11.3% contact with people infected from one of the other sources 3.3+0.6% infected overseas 14.9% other/unknown Of course this doesn't say anything about masks. But you can clearly see that unlike in many other countries, ~70% of cases in Korea are concentrated in a handful of clearly delineated groups, with relatively little spillover into the general public. It takes a bit of familiarity with the religious landscape of Korea and the workplace culture to recognize that most of these groups are where people don't wear a mask. (As for nursing homes, the elderly often have difficulty breathing through a mask, not to mention they're together 24/7.) Some people still got infected while wearing a mask, though, so it's not bulletproof. But it seems that the effect becomes visible as a kind of herd immunity when aggregated over a large population. As for the government not publishing locations visited with a mask on, here's an example from my city's official Instagram account [2]. It says that the infected person's movements on some days are redacted because she wore a mask on those days (among other precautions) and therefore didn't make any epidemiologically significant contact with other people. You can compare this with other press releases by the same account that contain a lot more location data for other people. [1] https://coronaboard.kr/en/#source-card-slide https://coronaboard.kr/en/#source-card-slide [2] https://www.instagram.com/p/B-Iy3G7lTQs/ https://www.instagram.com/p/B-Iy3G7lTQs/
deleted 6y ago
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dirtyid 6y ago
This. Asian countries that have ostensibly contained it well has wearing masks in common (except Singapore but it's still at 20%). Their other responses vary in scope and strictness. That said, most of them are islands or small countries. But then you have Vietnam, also pervasive mask usage. Shares landborder with China which is leaky at best. They were also very proactive like the other countries but have a fraction of the resources. I don't think it's an answer for containment, many that cracked down early are seeing record case levels now, but I wonder if it's enough to reduce spread and severity. But the rationale that made sense to me is that covid19 spread via respiratory particles, and mask reduce the viral load over time, which reduces risk of infection and severity since your body will have more time to recognize the infection and ramp up antibody production much earlier in the virus’s exponential growth cycle. Reduces R0 when ubiquitous. Maybe it spreads the curve and crushes it at the same time by reducing severe cases. Seems like a cheap experiment short experiment to run honestly. Give one group of essential workers masks vs control. Test in 7 days and collage symptom severeness etc. Giving everyone surgical or home made masks is cheaper and less damaging than what's happening now. The HK SARS tsar who was also part of the Wuhan investigation team endorse public mask usage.
Yizahi 6y ago
I use self made cotton mask to go for groceries. It's garbage - it doesn't fit tightly around the face and most of the air I inhale or exhale goes through the sides unobstructed. Proper masks would be nice but unavailable everywhere and of course washing hands is a must.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  It's not about protecting you from other people, it's about protecting other people from you. Many people are asymptomatic or very mildly sick, yet are able to infect other people. When you cough or wipe your nose, you risk infecting other people. The cheap mask prevents you from touching your face as much and catches heavier particles that can't curve around the bends of the facemask as easily like water and mucus.
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    No, it actually does protect you, just not as effectively as N-95s. That’s why hospitals are seeking out donations of homemade masks right now. “The masks don’t do anything” story was just something floated around to prevent runs on hospital supplies. A better strategy would’ve have been to say “everyone make and wear your own masks and it will afford us some additional amount of protection.”
    - Symmetry 6y ago
      I wouldn't rush to assume that it was part of a deliberate deception. People assume the function of an item from its intended use all the time and surgical masks genuinely don't provide that much protection from some viruses like measles or chicken pox. I think it's just a case that "they don't protect you" being the unexamined received wisdom and people just not bothering to look at actual studies.
      - claudeganon 6y ago
        I wish this was true, but I saw this claim made by more than one public-facing scientist that I’m certain knows better. If we had started adopting mass mask wearing, we could have helped reduce the spread and had people geared up to make masks for frontline healthcare workers.
kstenerud 6y ago
If you look at the data here [1] (desktop edition because the mobile edition doesn't have drill down), you can see that all countries (including Asian) are following the same pattern in the "daily increase" graph (click a country on the left to see its data). The only outliers are China and South Korea (flatline), and Japan (flattened curve). So while masks may have some effect, it hasn't been enough to give different graphs to Asian nations in general. [1] https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594...
- rjzzleep 6y ago
  Yeah, except you happily disregard the fact that a lot of asian countries including china have reimported cases mostly from Europe and the US. I'm pretty curious how this plays out in those countries.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- mcsb4 6y ago
  Did you read the NPR article? The very first chart shows that there is a big difference between the various countries. The logarithmic scale allows for much better visualisation than the almost nonsensical charts on the John Hopkins statistics page. The circles are also a completely inadequate visualisation. I.e. much better would be coloring countries by incident rate per 100.000 inhabitants. They do a good job collecting all the data but a seriously bad job visualising them.
- Bartweiss 6y ago
  Wait, which countries are we referencing outside of those three? Thailand looks straightforwardly exponential so far and has fairly heavy mask use, agreed. But Singapore, Taiwan, and arguably Malaysia seem too early to call: they're still plausibly on either of a European curve or South Korea's ramp-then-flatline. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Mongolia, and Burma all seem to be below the line for meaningful data. And Hong Kong isn't broken out. So I guess my questions are: do Indonesia and the Philipines have "mask cultures" to a level comparable to South Korea and Japan, and are their testing regimes wide enough to rely on those curves? I don't know the answer to that. And I agree that the "masks work" graph/meme circulating is questionable. But unless I'm missing something/somewhere, this data just looks like "too soon to call"?
SuoDuanDao 6y ago
It looks to me like a bit of an indication who has the most social capital. China was late to the party because the local chief of police overrode the doctors during the early days of the crisis. The rejection of masks looks to me like a similar prioritization of law enforcement's preferences over public health.
ValentineC 6y ago
> In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just against pollution (i.e. Thailand). Singapore resident here. Not enough people are wearing masks in Singapore, and the government has only distributed a token 4 masks per household (family members living at the same address), with no further measures to allow a family to replenish their mask supply. A lot of us can't buy new ones at reasonable prices even if we want to.
- Roritharr 6y ago
  German resident here, our chief virologist that everyone listens to, Christian Drosten, was firmly against mask usage in the common population, until just now, the RKI was similarly unhelpful when communicating advice for the disease. The population is completely confused and feel righteous anger now telling people off when they wear professional (medical disposable, or ffp3/n95) masks to go shopping or elsewhere. It's insane.
  - danmaz74 6y ago
    I don't know about that expert, but the reason I usually hear about not using masks is so that health professionals could get them - ie, the problem is that supply isn't currently enough for everybody, and we should prioritise those for which it's most helpful.
    - Roritharr 6y ago
      That makes total sense, but the communication discouraged people from wearing any kind of mask, even self-made ones.
    - rkachowski 6y ago
      This is one message that has me really confused. Why are masks being sold to the general public if this is the case? It's as if manufacturers and suppliers are helpless but to profit from public demand and the fault is a personal moral failure on behalf of everyone that wants to buy a mask for their own use. How can medical supplies be interrupted by public usage? Are doctors expected to swing past a pharmacy on the way to work and stock up on the supplies they need? And then in many Asian cultures it's considered a moral failure to not wear a mask in these times, yet hospitals function. This problem clearly isn't universal, or inherent in capitalist functioning.
supdatecron 6y ago
There was a study that showed cotton masks can actually be worse. A medical person showed me the other day, I’ll have to ask for the link
- Maximus9000 6y ago
  There is also a study that shows many studies findings cannot be reproduced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis From where I stand, the countries that have a culture of wearing masks are doing better with regards to coronavirus. At the very least, it seems like a good hypothesis.
  - zorak 6y ago
    I'm reminded of Naseem Taleb's statement that when you measure a table with a ruler, you are also measuring the ruler with the table.
- geerlingguy 6y ago
  This is the only definitive study I've seen, and it recommends cotton masks: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05/S0950268809991658a.pdf/face_masks_to_prevent_transmission_of_influenza_virus_a_systematic_review.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...
- svara 6y ago
  Probably the MacIntyre et al. paper. It's being misinterpreted everywhere in this very misleading fashion. See this blog MacIntyre wrote to clarify this: https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-health-workers-during-covid19-pandemic https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-healt... People misrepresenting this study are doing tremendous harm, it has to stop.
  - supdatecron 6y ago
    Thank you for sharing this updated clarification. I just shared it with that medical professional who showed me the original. Hoping to spread this clarification
didgeoridoo 6y ago
But I was assured by the media that masks are useless, and that hand sanitizer is only for bacteria...?
leguminous 6y ago
The doctors in my fiancée's department (ophthalmology and optometry at a major state university) have been officially prohibited from wearing masks, even if they provided a mask themselves. They are right in front of all of their patients' faces.
- pragmatic 6y ago
  Why? Wondering what the reasoning is for this? Family member works in a similar dept at large hospital and they have stopped seeing patients.
  - ls612 6y ago
    Jealousy. Can’t have some people seen having masks when others can’t get them.
- DanBC 6y ago
  I'm not defending that, but here's recommendations for preserving PPE: http://www.ihi.org/communities/blogs/covid-pandemic-conserving-personal-protective-equipment http://www.ihi.org/communities/blogs/covid-pandemic-conservi... > Other potential considerations being explored include: > Limiting use of N95 masks to only procedures where respiratory secretions can be aerosolized, including intubation for PUI or COVID+ individuals. Use loop surgical masks for all other encounters. Read the latest guidelines on keeping the coronavirus from infecting health care workers. > Limiting use of loop masks to only encounters with patients on droplet precautions such as PUI or COVID+ or other flu like illness investigations. It sounds like their department has implemented this second recommendation. I feel like that's sub-optimal.
hristov 6y ago
The problem with use of masks in the US is that we do not have enough masks and we need them all for health care workers. If there aren't enough masks for health care workers, doctors and nurses will stop coming to work people won't be able to get medical attention the death rate will sky rocket because of lack of simple medical procedures, there will be panic in the streets, etc. For this reason our media seems to be under strict orders to de-emphasize masks and just talk about distancing and hand washing. It is very regrettable that we have a completely incompetent federal government that did not stock up on masks even though they had plenty of warning but these are the facts. If we ever make enough masks so that all the health care workers are covered, then yes all civilians should wear masks. I am sure then the media will start talking about masks.
- bitexploder 6y ago
  A lot of masks sold retail can’t be used in hospital settings in America. Many hospitals have strict rules about procurement and origination of things like N95 masks. Meanwhile, I can order comparable masks from China and have them in less than a week in quantity. It’s very much cultural as well as government response (why we are sucking so much at controlling this).
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > I can order comparable masks from China Why would you buy safety critical equipment from China? There are good reasons those hospitals have such strict requirements. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/12/c_138870714.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/12/c_138870714.htm > A joint law enforcement operation by government agencies including the State Administration for Market Regulation (SAMR) was launched in early February, with over 80 million defective face masks and 370,000 other faulty PPE items seized, SAMR official Yang Hongcan told a press conference Thursday. https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-25/los-test-rapidos-de-coronavirus-comprados-en-china-no-funcionan.html https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-25/los-test-rapidos-de-c... (350,000 tests supposed to have 80% specificity but actually have something like 30%).
    - 6y ago
Spoppys 6y ago
Cloth masks may be counter productive https://dx.doi.org/10.1136%2Fbmjopen-2014-006577 https://dx.doi.org/10.1136%2Fbmjopen-2014-006577
- svara 6y ago
  This paper is being misinterpreted everywhere in this very misleading fashion. See this blog post Raina MacIntyre (the first author) wrote to clarify this: https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-health-workers-during-covid19-pandemic https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-healt... People misrepresenting this study are doing tremendous harm, it has to stop.
- wtdo 6y ago
  That is not what that study says. Yes, cloth masks are not as effective as medical masks. But the study does not compare cloth masks with no masks. The three groups in the study are: > medical masks, cloth masks or a control group (usual practice, which included mask wearing). Yes, the cloth mask group had more infections than the medical mask group and the control group. But the control group included wearing masks as usual. It does NOT say cloth masks are less effective than nothing. "No mask" was not studied. Cloth masks might be less effective than wearing no mask (I personally doubt that), but this study didn't say anything about that hypothesis.
koonsolo 6y ago
Sure, but it needs to be a 'proper' mask. Yesterday I was in a shop and saw 2 different people with a scarf over their mouth. You would think this is no problem, but they both had to keep this scarf up with their hands... . Seems like the most effective way to spread and receive germs. Govermnent needs to be clear what the protocol is.
- Donald 6y ago
  Even cloth filters out 70% of respiratory virus particles. The notion that only a properly fitted N95 mask is effective is ridiculous and is probably costing lives.
  - checker659 6y ago
    This. Also, nobody ever talks about double masking. You know, if you've got no N95, then put on two surgical masks (each facing the other way). If you don't have surgical marks, wear two cloth masks and wash them with antiseptic solution daily.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    Sure, but if you inhale 30% of that from your hand into your mouth, and exhale 30% to your hand, it loses more than just not touching your face.
- bagacrap 6y ago
  sure, but this seems like a minor quibble. Much cheaper for govt to manufacture and distribute simple surgical or cotton masks than shutdown entire GDP/forgo all tax revenue. The masks in question are not complicated to produce, whereas respirators and n95 are.
checker659 6y ago
Exactly. Masks are like dampeners. Even if not everyone's masks are good (cloth masks), they'll still slow the spread, hence significantly fattening the curve. Advising people to not wear mask is the biggest disservice the American government (and the CDC) did to its people. Just asking people to cover their mouths with bandanas and scarfs would've helped a lot. I shudder when I see reporters in a breakout zone reporting without masks on. Man.
LZ_Khan 6y ago
I genuinely wonder if the use of masks is the biggest factor in stopping the transmission. When I went to Asia mask wearing was common everyday as a protection against transmission/pollution. It was almost even a fashion item. But here in the US, when the outbreak happened and I went grocery shopping with a mask I was stared at and given fearful looks as if I had the virus already.
yboya 6y ago
Many more people would use masks and gloves if they were available for purchase. This could never be implemented in the US unless the government was supplying everyone with masks. At this point it’s almost criminal to buy masks for yourself when health workers don’t have access to enough of them.

by mcsb4 6y ago

raaaaraaaa12 6y ago

We have face mask mandatory now in Czech Republic, Italy scared us and goverment reacted quickly. Its not over yet but we are on the right track. https://news.expats.cz/health-medical/breaking-face-coverings-to-be-mandatory-in-all-public-spaces-across-the-czech-republic-as-of-midnight/ https://news.expats.cz/health-medical/breaking-face-covering...

aneutron 6y ago
Can you please attest to the correctness of the news about the Czech government stealing a shipment of masks that was meant to be delivered to Italy [1] ? If so, is there something the "outsiders" are missing (e.g. some political bs between the two countries) ? Or is it just plain old theft ? [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-czech-italy/czechs-send-facemasks-to-italy-after-mix-up-over-chinese-gift-idUSKBN21A2AW https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-czech-...
- raaaaraaaa12 6y ago
  https://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffrs/why-chinese-masks-destined-for-italy-were-seized-not-stolen-by-czech-authorities https://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffrs/why-chinese-masks-... Czech authorities during a customs raid last Tuesday mistakenly seized 101,600 facemasks gifted by a branch of the Red Cross in eastern China to a Chinese community in Italy. Although Czech officials apologized for the mix-up, the Italian newspaper La Repubblica on Sunday published a bogus article claiming the Czech state had “stolen” that shipment – and much more. Czechs would send 110,000 facemasks to Italy on Monday (March 23), dispatched along with an evacuation bus of 43 Italian nationals heading home, as agreed with the Italian Embassy in Prague. --- My comment is that our goverment officials or those policemans are probably stupid...
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    > --- My comment is that our goverment officials or those policemans are probably stupid... Or they thought "better safe than sorry", given that smugglers aren't stupid and you can't just believe it was sent by Red Cross just because the courier says so. If anything, I'd ask why La Repubblica published a bogus article.
    - hguant 6y ago
      >If anything, I'd ask why La Repubblica published a bogus article. Seasons come and go, but click bait is eternal
- rat9988 6y ago
  Why does he have to? You can do your research on internet nowadays and be just as well informed as him.
  - ttoinou 6y ago
    Not the whole world speaks your language :-)
  - rfrey 6y ago
    A good faith interpretation of aneutron's comment is that they heard this report on Reuters; saw the author is from the Czech Republic and thought it was a good opportunity to find out about "local news" on the issue to get a different perspective. Agree it sounded confrontational, but it probably wasn't.
    - aneutron 6y ago
      You are correct. There are generally some "hidden" fact. Like some news outlets try to run the story as something that it isn't. It was not confrontational at all.
- krab 6y ago
  It's not clear how the masks appeared in that storage. It may be well possible the masks were stolen by somebody who wanted to sell them. The company owning the storage didn't comment. The masks were sent to Italy within a few days.
Kiro 6y ago
How does that work when it's impossible to buy masks anywhere?
- i_am_proteus 6y ago
  A t-shirt or bandana or scarf will make an excellent makeshift mask. This is not the equivalent of an N95 mask that should be used by health care professionals, but is good for ordinary citizens in public.
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    Yep, especially as the main purpose of the mask is to protect you from potentially infecting others. Asymptomatic carriers are a huge problem for the coronavirus pandemic - people might be spreading it without knowing and might only get ill much later. By using even a very rudimentary mask, the infected droplets have it much harder to get out to other people and to contaminate surfaces. Also you are less likely to touch your face, so less hand contamination & thus less surface contamination. Of course this only works if everyone has a mask, but given how easy it is to make simple cloth masks I think this is a fully reasonable requirement.
- krab 6y ago
  A lot of people was/is sewing them at home. My wife (data scientist in a normal life) made some for our family incl. grandparents and also for some neighbours. A link from a local "Etsy" [1]. The government even made an exception so the sewing supplies shops could open. [1]: https://www.fler.cz/zbozi/oboustranna-rouska-11339514 https://www.fler.cz/zbozi/oboustranna-rouska-11339514
- largespoon 6y ago
  Try aliexepress
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > Try aliexepress I'd be surprised if that worked at all. At least one Chinese ecommerce website is preventing foreign IPs from even viewing item listings for masks. When you try to view the item from the search results, it gives you an error saying something like export is prohibited. Also China has pretty much shut down air travel to the country to prevent "imported cases," so air freight capacity from is greatly reduced: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/world/asia/china-virus-travel-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/world/asia/china-virus-tr...: > The halt to almost all international passenger flights in and out of China will make it even harder for other countries to import N95 respirators, disposable surgical masks and other personal protection gear from China for their own doctors and nurses. About half the world’s airfreight typically moves in the bellies of passenger aircraft, while the rest travels aboard air freighters. > Previous, large-scale cancellations of passenger air services to China have already created an acute shortage of air cargo capacity over the past two weeks.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

I've read repeatedly (and heard on the radio several times) that wearing a mask if YOU are infected will help protect other people, but if you are not infected then it has no known protective effect ie. is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one. Do you have any evidence to back up you talk of masks? (And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway) Edit: I was thinking of non-medical situations. @j7ake below, clearly pointed out they work in medical situations, something I was not contesting at all but did not make clear. The original post talked of "wearing masks in public" which was clearly not in medical situations and I was following through that.

raaaaraaaa12 6y ago
Yes that's right even your own DIY face mask protect other people. And that's enough to slow down spreading... You dont know for first ~5-6 days whether you are infected or not. https://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-making-diy-face-masks-amidst-shortages-due-to-coronavirus-2020 https://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-making-diy-face-m... Don't worry too much about effectiveness of DIY face masks - in few months Respilon and other Czech companies will put on market face masks made from nanomaterials which filters virus much more effectively ;)
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  Valid rebuttal, thanks. OK, I think that the mask over your own face is to prevent viral spread in largish water particles caused by coughs and sneezes, not general breathing (I'm not sure general breathing spreads much virus anyway, but I don't know). So if you are infected and not showing symptoms ie. not coughing/sneezing then arguably the mask is not doing anything. Arguably not, but we need more data - can anyone comment with sources?
  - Lewton 6y ago
    > not coughing/sneezing then arguably the mask is not doing anything. People cough and sneeze all the time even if they're not sick.....
  - 6y ago

kijin 6y ago

To add a bit more data to your assertion, most of the 9,000 cases in South Korea can be traced to a handful of gatherings where people didn't wear masks. First there was the cult in Daegu, where believers are not allowed to cover their faces because apparently their god can't see through fabric. Mass infections also occurred in churches where people took off their masks to eat or sing together, or tried to "sanitize" one another's mouths with a folk remedy. A gym in Cheonan was responsible for the majority of cases in that province, and recently there was a small burst of cases in an insurance company call center in Seoul. Meanwhile, the subway in Seoul is just as packed with people as always, but I haven't heard of a single case that was conclusively traced to the subway. Why? Everyone wears a mask when riding the subway and sanitize their hands afterward. Masks have been so effective that the Korean government has even stopped publishing locations that were visited by infected people if they are known to have worn a mask while visiting them. Yes, they still track down each and every case outside of the Daegu area.

casperc 6y ago
Any chance you have some sources on this? There a lot of talking around the subject of masks, but I don't have any articles or similar to show people when discussing this.
- kijin 6y ago
  The bit about masks is my own conclusion based on a lot of different local sources. The closest thing to a comprehensive source about the distribution of infections in South Korea that I can find is [1], which still contains too much Korean-in-a-canvas that can't be automatically translated: 54.6% of cases are related to the Shincheonji cult 0.5+0.7+0.5% various other churches and religious groups 1.3% Daenam Hospital (almost all cases occurred in the psychiatric ward, as well as the attached funeral home where the Shincheonji cult leader held his brother's funeral) 1.2% related to gyms 1.2% related to the call center in Guro-gu 3.6% nursing homes 6.3% related to other mass infections (this includes other call centers, nursing homes, etc.) 11.3% contact with people infected from one of the other sources 3.3+0.6% infected overseas 14.9% other/unknown Of course this doesn't say anything about masks. But you can clearly see that unlike in many other countries, ~70% of cases in Korea are concentrated in a handful of clearly delineated groups, with relatively little spillover into the general public. It takes a bit of familiarity with the religious landscape of Korea and the workplace culture to recognize that most of these groups are where people don't wear a mask. (As for nursing homes, the elderly often have difficulty breathing through a mask, not to mention they're together 24/7.) Some people still got infected while wearing a mask, though, so it's not bulletproof. But it seems that the effect becomes visible as a kind of herd immunity when aggregated over a large population. As for the government not publishing locations visited with a mask on, here's an example from my city's official Instagram account [2]. It says that the infected person's movements on some days are redacted because she wore a mask on those days (among other precautions) and therefore didn't make any epidemiologically significant contact with other people. You can compare this with other press releases by the same account that contain a lot more location data for other people. [1] https://coronaboard.kr/en/#source-card-slide https://coronaboard.kr/en/#source-card-slide [2] https://www.instagram.com/p/B-Iy3G7lTQs/ https://www.instagram.com/p/B-Iy3G7lTQs/

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dirtyid 6y ago

This. Asian countries that have ostensibly contained it well has wearing masks in common (except Singapore but it's still at 20%). Their other responses vary in scope and strictness. That said, most of them are islands or small countries. But then you have Vietnam, also pervasive mask usage. Shares landborder with China which is leaky at best. They were also very proactive like the other countries but have a fraction of the resources. I don't think it's an answer for containment, many that cracked down early are seeing record case levels now, but I wonder if it's enough to reduce spread and severity. But the rationale that made sense to me is that covid19 spread via respiratory particles, and mask reduce the viral load over time, which reduces risk of infection and severity since your body will have more time to recognize the infection and ramp up antibody production much earlier in the virus’s exponential growth cycle. Reduces R0 when ubiquitous. Maybe it spreads the curve and crushes it at the same time by reducing severe cases. Seems like a cheap experiment short experiment to run honestly. Give one group of essential workers masks vs control. Test in 7 days and collage symptom severeness etc. Giving everyone surgical or home made masks is cheaper and less damaging than what's happening now. The HK SARS tsar who was also part of the Wuhan investigation team endorse public mask usage.

Yizahi 6y ago

I use self made cotton mask to go for groceries. It's garbage - it doesn't fit tightly around the face and most of the air I inhale or exhale goes through the sides unobstructed. Proper masks would be nice but unavailable everywhere and of course washing hands is a must.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
It's not about protecting you from other people, it's about protecting other people from you. Many people are asymptomatic or very mildly sick, yet are able to infect other people. When you cough or wipe your nose, you risk infecting other people. The cheap mask prevents you from touching your face as much and catches heavier particles that can't curve around the bends of the facemask as easily like water and mucus.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  No, it actually does protect you, just not as effectively as N-95s. That’s why hospitals are seeking out donations of homemade masks right now. “The masks don’t do anything” story was just something floated around to prevent runs on hospital supplies. A better strategy would’ve have been to say “everyone make and wear your own masks and it will afford us some additional amount of protection.”
  - Symmetry 6y ago
    I wouldn't rush to assume that it was part of a deliberate deception. People assume the function of an item from its intended use all the time and surgical masks genuinely don't provide that much protection from some viruses like measles or chicken pox. I think it's just a case that "they don't protect you" being the unexamined received wisdom and people just not bothering to look at actual studies.
    - claudeganon 6y ago
      I wish this was true, but I saw this claim made by more than one public-facing scientist that I’m certain knows better. If we had started adopting mass mask wearing, we could have helped reduce the spread and had people geared up to make masks for frontline healthcare workers.

kstenerud 6y ago

If you look at the data here [1] (desktop edition because the mobile edition doesn't have drill down), you can see that all countries (including Asian) are following the same pattern in the "daily increase" graph (click a country on the left to see its data). The only outliers are China and South Korea (flatline), and Japan (flattened curve). So while masks may have some effect, it hasn't been enough to give different graphs to Asian nations in general. [1] https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594...

rjzzleep 6y ago
Yeah, except you happily disregard the fact that a lot of asian countries including china have reimported cases mostly from Europe and the US. I'm pretty curious how this plays out in those countries.
- deleted 6y ago
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mcsb4 6y ago
Did you read the NPR article? The very first chart shows that there is a big difference between the various countries. The logarithmic scale allows for much better visualisation than the almost nonsensical charts on the John Hopkins statistics page. The circles are also a completely inadequate visualisation. I.e. much better would be coloring countries by incident rate per 100.000 inhabitants. They do a good job collecting all the data but a seriously bad job visualising them.
Bartweiss 6y ago
Wait, which countries are we referencing outside of those three? Thailand looks straightforwardly exponential so far and has fairly heavy mask use, agreed. But Singapore, Taiwan, and arguably Malaysia seem too early to call: they're still plausibly on either of a European curve or South Korea's ramp-then-flatline. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Mongolia, and Burma all seem to be below the line for meaningful data. And Hong Kong isn't broken out. So I guess my questions are: do Indonesia and the Philipines have "mask cultures" to a level comparable to South Korea and Japan, and are their testing regimes wide enough to rely on those curves? I don't know the answer to that. And I agree that the "masks work" graph/meme circulating is questionable. But unless I'm missing something/somewhere, this data just looks like "too soon to call"?

SuoDuanDao 6y ago

It looks to me like a bit of an indication who has the most social capital. China was late to the party because the local chief of police overrode the doctors during the early days of the crisis. The rejection of masks looks to me like a similar prioritization of law enforcement's preferences over public health.

ValentineC 6y ago

> In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just against pollution (i.e. Thailand). Singapore resident here. Not enough people are wearing masks in Singapore, and the government has only distributed a token 4 masks per household (family members living at the same address), with no further measures to allow a family to replenish their mask supply. A lot of us can't buy new ones at reasonable prices even if we want to.

Roritharr 6y ago
German resident here, our chief virologist that everyone listens to, Christian Drosten, was firmly against mask usage in the common population, until just now, the RKI was similarly unhelpful when communicating advice for the disease. The population is completely confused and feel righteous anger now telling people off when they wear professional (medical disposable, or ffp3/n95) masks to go shopping or elsewhere. It's insane.
- danmaz74 6y ago
  I don't know about that expert, but the reason I usually hear about not using masks is so that health professionals could get them - ie, the problem is that supply isn't currently enough for everybody, and we should prioritise those for which it's most helpful.
  - Roritharr 6y ago
    That makes total sense, but the communication discouraged people from wearing any kind of mask, even self-made ones.
  - rkachowski 6y ago
    This is one message that has me really confused. Why are masks being sold to the general public if this is the case? It's as if manufacturers and suppliers are helpless but to profit from public demand and the fault is a personal moral failure on behalf of everyone that wants to buy a mask for their own use. How can medical supplies be interrupted by public usage? Are doctors expected to swing past a pharmacy on the way to work and stock up on the supplies they need? And then in many Asian cultures it's considered a moral failure to not wear a mask in these times, yet hospitals function. This problem clearly isn't universal, or inherent in capitalist functioning.

supdatecron 6y ago

There was a study that showed cotton masks can actually be worse. A medical person showed me the other day, I’ll have to ask for the link

Maximus9000 6y ago
There is also a study that shows many studies findings cannot be reproduced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis From where I stand, the countries that have a culture of wearing masks are doing better with regards to coronavirus. At the very least, it seems like a good hypothesis.
- zorak 6y ago
  I'm reminded of Naseem Taleb's statement that when you measure a table with a ruler, you are also measuring the ruler with the table.
geerlingguy 6y ago
This is the only definitive study I've seen, and it recommends cotton masks: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05/S0950268809991658a.pdf/face_masks_to_prevent_transmission_of_influenza_virus_a_systematic_review.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...
svara 6y ago
Probably the MacIntyre et al. paper. It's being misinterpreted everywhere in this very misleading fashion. See this blog MacIntyre wrote to clarify this: https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-health-workers-during-covid19-pandemic https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-healt... People misrepresenting this study are doing tremendous harm, it has to stop.
- supdatecron 6y ago
  Thank you for sharing this updated clarification. I just shared it with that medical professional who showed me the original. Hoping to spread this clarification

didgeoridoo 6y ago

But I was assured by the media that masks are useless, and that hand sanitizer is only for bacteria...?

leguminous 6y ago

The doctors in my fiancée's department (ophthalmology and optometry at a major state university) have been officially prohibited from wearing masks, even if they provided a mask themselves. They are right in front of all of their patients' faces.

pragmatic 6y ago
Why? Wondering what the reasoning is for this? Family member works in a similar dept at large hospital and they have stopped seeing patients.
- ls612 6y ago
  Jealousy. Can’t have some people seen having masks when others can’t get them.
DanBC 6y ago
I'm not defending that, but here's recommendations for preserving PPE: http://www.ihi.org/communities/blogs/covid-pandemic-conserving-personal-protective-equipment http://www.ihi.org/communities/blogs/covid-pandemic-conservi... > Other potential considerations being explored include: > Limiting use of N95 masks to only procedures where respiratory secretions can be aerosolized, including intubation for PUI or COVID+ individuals. Use loop surgical masks for all other encounters. Read the latest guidelines on keeping the coronavirus from infecting health care workers. > Limiting use of loop masks to only encounters with patients on droplet precautions such as PUI or COVID+ or other flu like illness investigations. It sounds like their department has implemented this second recommendation. I feel like that's sub-optimal.

hristov 6y ago

The problem with use of masks in the US is that we do not have enough masks and we need them all for health care workers. If there aren't enough masks for health care workers, doctors and nurses will stop coming to work people won't be able to get medical attention the death rate will sky rocket because of lack of simple medical procedures, there will be panic in the streets, etc. For this reason our media seems to be under strict orders to de-emphasize masks and just talk about distancing and hand washing. It is very regrettable that we have a completely incompetent federal government that did not stock up on masks even though they had plenty of warning but these are the facts. If we ever make enough masks so that all the health care workers are covered, then yes all civilians should wear masks. I am sure then the media will start talking about masks.

bitexploder 6y ago
A lot of masks sold retail can’t be used in hospital settings in America. Many hospitals have strict rules about procurement and origination of things like N95 masks. Meanwhile, I can order comparable masks from China and have them in less than a week in quantity. It’s very much cultural as well as government response (why we are sucking so much at controlling this).
- DanBC 6y ago
  > I can order comparable masks from China Why would you buy safety critical equipment from China? There are good reasons those hospitals have such strict requirements. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/12/c_138870714.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/12/c_138870714.htm > A joint law enforcement operation by government agencies including the State Administration for Market Regulation (SAMR) was launched in early February, with over 80 million defective face masks and 370,000 other faulty PPE items seized, SAMR official Yang Hongcan told a press conference Thursday. https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-25/los-test-rapidos-de-coronavirus-comprados-en-china-no-funcionan.html https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-25/los-test-rapidos-de-c... (350,000 tests supposed to have 80% specificity but actually have something like 30%).
  - 6y ago

Spoppys 6y ago

Cloth masks may be counter productive https://dx.doi.org/10.1136%2Fbmjopen-2014-006577 https://dx.doi.org/10.1136%2Fbmjopen-2014-006577

svara 6y ago
This paper is being misinterpreted everywhere in this very misleading fashion. See this blog post Raina MacIntyre (the first author) wrote to clarify this: https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-health-workers-during-covid19-pandemic https://iser.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/impact-ppe-shortages-healt... People misrepresenting this study are doing tremendous harm, it has to stop.
wtdo 6y ago
That is not what that study says. Yes, cloth masks are not as effective as medical masks. But the study does not compare cloth masks with no masks. The three groups in the study are: > medical masks, cloth masks or a control group (usual practice, which included mask wearing). Yes, the cloth mask group had more infections than the medical mask group and the control group. But the control group included wearing masks as usual. It does NOT say cloth masks are less effective than nothing. "No mask" was not studied. Cloth masks might be less effective than wearing no mask (I personally doubt that), but this study didn't say anything about that hypothesis.

koonsolo 6y ago

Sure, but it needs to be a 'proper' mask. Yesterday I was in a shop and saw 2 different people with a scarf over their mouth. You would think this is no problem, but they both had to keep this scarf up with their hands... . Seems like the most effective way to spread and receive germs. Govermnent needs to be clear what the protocol is.

Donald 6y ago
Even cloth filters out 70% of respiratory virus particles. The notion that only a properly fitted N95 mask is effective is ridiculous and is probably costing lives.
- checker659 6y ago
  This. Also, nobody ever talks about double masking. You know, if you've got no N95, then put on two surgical masks (each facing the other way). If you don't have surgical marks, wear two cloth masks and wash them with antiseptic solution daily.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  Sure, but if you inhale 30% of that from your hand into your mouth, and exhale 30% to your hand, it loses more than just not touching your face.
bagacrap 6y ago
sure, but this seems like a minor quibble. Much cheaper for govt to manufacture and distribute simple surgical or cotton masks than shutdown entire GDP/forgo all tax revenue. The masks in question are not complicated to produce, whereas respirators and n95 are.

checker659 6y ago

Exactly. Masks are like dampeners. Even if not everyone's masks are good (cloth masks), they'll still slow the spread, hence significantly fattening the curve. Advising people to not wear mask is the biggest disservice the American government (and the CDC) did to its people. Just asking people to cover their mouths with bandanas and scarfs would've helped a lot. I shudder when I see reporters in a breakout zone reporting without masks on. Man.

LZ_Khan 6y ago

I genuinely wonder if the use of masks is the biggest factor in stopping the transmission. When I went to Asia mask wearing was common everyday as a protection against transmission/pollution. It was almost even a fashion item. But here in the US, when the outbreak happened and I went grocery shopping with a mask I was stared at and given fearful looks as if I had the virus already.

yboya 6y ago

Many more people would use masks and gloves if they were available for purchase. This could never be implemented in the US unless the government was supplying everyone with masks. At this point it’s almost criminal to buy masks for yourself when health workers don’t have access to enough of them.