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It's too bad Valve didn't properly support or listen to players of Garfield's digital card game Artifact (which he developed for Valve). It was a huge leap forw

It's too bad Valve didn't properly support or listen to players of Garfield's digital card game Artifact (which he developed for Valve). It was a huge leap forward in digital card games, involving high-level strategic play not present in Magic. The 3-lane system inspired by DOTA and the Initiative system were great innovations in the genre.

vosper 6y ago
It appears that Artifact is not dead: > "We ran an experiment, we got a negative result, and now we need to see if we’ve learned anything from that, so let’s try again. And that’s what [the Artifact team] have been doing and that’s what they’re getting ready to release. Based on the reaction to it, what was wrong with the product? How did we get there? Let’s fix those things and take another run at it." https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-at-the-return-of-artifact/ https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-...
- Revery 6y ago
  It is dead in the sense that it failed miserably on release, has very few active players, and the upcoming changes have been reported as being called Artifact 2.0 internally
urda 6y ago
https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 Valve is working on it still.
softwarejosh 6y ago
the high complexity is exactly why I and many other players did not play. compared to hearthstone and mtg the game mechanics felt forced and over complicated, not fun at all. I REALLY wanted to like it too.
- dx87 6y ago
  And it's funny, because in this article he says that he doesn't like making digital card games because they end up being overly complicated, but that's exactly what he designed Artifact as, and even bragged about how it was going to be the most complex card game people ever played.
- strbean 6y ago
  > compared to [...] mtg the game mechanics felt forced and over complicated I honestly have never heard someone suggest any game was more complicated than mtg!
- beatgammit 6y ago
  Funny, that's exactly why I don't play Hearthstone. I'm getting tired if games based more on owning top tier cards and following deck lists than actual strategy. I'm sad that Android: Netrunner (also by Garfield) has been discontinued, since I'd really like something like that with a nice digital client since it's fairly easy to get a complete collection.
  - w-ll 6y ago
    Have you seen https://www.jinteki.net/ https://www.jinteki.net/ I play with my dad at least once a week!
dx87 6y ago
Valve listened to Garfield, who was telling them that the players not liking it were wrong because he had data to show that the game was fine. He treated players like computers and ignored that the game had a lot of feelsbad mechanics, but he ignored the feedback because statistically it was very balanced, therefore he thought the players shouldn't dislike it. A Star Wars TCG he made failed for the same reason, but apparently he didn't learn.
- ericcholis 6y ago
  The Star Wars TCG failed so spectacularly and the original CCG from decipher is still going today....despite not having a release in almost 20 years.
- danbolt 6y ago
  Agreed! I think it kind of goes to show that a game often needs a nice cocktail of interesting game state changes (eg: "mechanics") mixed with nice feelings. Audiences vary in how they like the two (eg: Chess compared to Mario Kart), but the right fit is really important to a successful product. Valve had a nice way of describing "player acknowledgement" [1][2] for cosmetic things like bullet holes or lighting affecting our lizard brains. On the other hand, a close friend of mine really enjoys the "Star Wars: Rebellion" board game. [3] The decisions and mechanics gives the sense of excitement he feels when he watches a Star Wars movie. I don't blame Garfield for making the kinds of games he likes though. His clout probably helps makes new trails for other ideas to take shape and be improved on. [1] https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131815/the_cabal_valves_design_process_.php?print=1 https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131815/the_cabal_valv... [2] https://youtu.be/Td_PGkfIdIQ?t=1634 https://youtu.be/Td_PGkfIdIQ?t=1634 [3] https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/187645/star-wars-rebellion https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/187645/star-wars-rebelli...
- tobrien6 6y ago
  The feelsbad mechanics (like random creep placement) could be accounted for and the randomness mitigated, but it was highly skill-based and thus frustrating for beginners. The fact that the same guy won almost all the tournaments in the beta shows how skill-based the game was. Closer to Chess than to Magic in some ways, despite the elements of randomness. I think Garfield was right, but there were very real concerns about the player experience that still needed to be addressed. It also needed frequent new card releases imo.
dmoy 6y ago
Three lane strategy card games in that genre existed for quite awhile. There was a somewhat popular series called Dixie from the 90s which did civil war battles using three lanes (and I assume other Tom Dalgliesh games did similar). I always assumed DotA/etc got that idea from elsewhere, but of course I have no idea.

vosper 6y ago

It appears that Artifact is not dead: > "We ran an experiment, we got a negative result, and now we need to see if we’ve learned anything from that, so let’s try again. And that’s what [the Artifact team] have been doing and that’s what they’re getting ready to release. Based on the reaction to it, what was wrong with the product? How did we get there? Let’s fix those things and take another run at it." https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-at-the-return-of-artifact/ https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-...

Revery 6y ago
It is dead in the sense that it failed miserably on release, has very few active players, and the upcoming changes have been reported as being called Artifact 2.0 internally

urda 6y ago

https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 Valve is working on it still.

softwarejosh 6y ago

the high complexity is exactly why I and many other players did not play. compared to hearthstone and mtg the game mechanics felt forced and over complicated, not fun at all. I REALLY wanted to like it too.

dx87 6y ago
And it's funny, because in this article he says that he doesn't like making digital card games because they end up being overly complicated, but that's exactly what he designed Artifact as, and even bragged about how it was going to be the most complex card game people ever played.
strbean 6y ago
> compared to [...] mtg the game mechanics felt forced and over complicated I honestly have never heard someone suggest any game was more complicated than mtg!
beatgammit 6y ago
Funny, that's exactly why I don't play Hearthstone. I'm getting tired if games based more on owning top tier cards and following deck lists than actual strategy. I'm sad that Android: Netrunner (also by Garfield) has been discontinued, since I'd really like something like that with a nice digital client since it's fairly easy to get a complete collection.
- w-ll 6y ago
  Have you seen https://www.jinteki.net/ https://www.jinteki.net/ I play with my dad at least once a week!

dx87 6y ago

Valve listened to Garfield, who was telling them that the players not liking it were wrong because he had data to show that the game was fine. He treated players like computers and ignored that the game had a lot of feelsbad mechanics, but he ignored the feedback because statistically it was very balanced, therefore he thought the players shouldn't dislike it. A Star Wars TCG he made failed for the same reason, but apparently he didn't learn.

ericcholis 6y ago
The Star Wars TCG failed so spectacularly and the original CCG from decipher is still going today....despite not having a release in almost 20 years.
danbolt 6y ago
Agreed! I think it kind of goes to show that a game often needs a nice cocktail of interesting game state changes (eg: "mechanics") mixed with nice feelings. Audiences vary in how they like the two (eg: Chess compared to Mario Kart), but the right fit is really important to a successful product. Valve had a nice way of describing "player acknowledgement" [1][2] for cosmetic things like bullet holes or lighting affecting our lizard brains. On the other hand, a close friend of mine really enjoys the "Star Wars: Rebellion" board game. [3] The decisions and mechanics gives the sense of excitement he feels when he watches a Star Wars movie. I don't blame Garfield for making the kinds of games he likes though. His clout probably helps makes new trails for other ideas to take shape and be improved on. [1] https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131815/the_cabal_valves_design_process_.php?print=1 https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131815/the_cabal_valv... [2] https://youtu.be/Td_PGkfIdIQ?t=1634 https://youtu.be/Td_PGkfIdIQ?t=1634 [3] https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/187645/star-wars-rebellion https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/187645/star-wars-rebelli...
tobrien6 6y ago
The feelsbad mechanics (like random creep placement) could be accounted for and the randomness mitigated, but it was highly skill-based and thus frustrating for beginners. The fact that the same guy won almost all the tournaments in the beta shows how skill-based the game was. Closer to Chess than to Magic in some ways, despite the elements of randomness. I think Garfield was right, but there were very real concerns about the player experience that still needed to be addressed. It also needed frequent new card releases imo.

dmoy 6y ago

Three lane strategy card games in that genre existed for quite awhile. There was a somewhat popular series called Dixie from the 90s which did civil war battles using three lanes (and I assume other Tom Dalgliesh games did similar). I always assumed DotA/etc got that idea from elsewhere, but of course I have no idea.