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The title is terrible, it should read ketosis/ketones may prevent, reverse age-related effects within the brain. "Low carb" as the title currently reads does n

The title is terrible, it should read ketosis/ketones may prevent, reverse age-related effects within the brain. "Low carb" as the title currently reads does not necessarily result in ketosis and your body/brain running on ketones, which appears to be the scope of this study. There is more to dietary ketosis than low carb, just as an example carnivore or paleo diets are low carb, but those will generally not result in ketosis, in protein rich diets your body will convert the protein to glucose which will continue to be the primary fuel for the cells in the brain/body. If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones.

collyw 7y ago
I was about to ask if intermittent fasting would have the same effects as I get the impression that its a healthier way of getting into ketosis. (When I look, I don't see negative effects associated with IF, and I do with keto diets. The research changes a lot and the conclusions don't seem definitive, but I thought someone on here might have an educated opinion on the matter).
- cagenut 7y ago
  Your body goes into ketosis when it "runs out" of blood-sugar for long enough. It usually takes me 2 - 3 days of staying below 30 net grams (i'm a larger guy, for many people it requires going below 20). IF can be a part of that, in terms of helping you to control your eating and making the time-period at the end of those 2 - 3 days happen maybe a half-day sooner, but fundamentally it doesn't change carbs are carbs. Also you might find the relationship almost works the other way. Ketosis makes IF much easier. I haven't eaten breakfast in years. I don't even really consider that an IF regimen as much as like... once you get rid of the habit for a month or two you completely don't miss it and forget why you bothered.
- ypcx 7y ago
  In my personal case I'm not really able to enter and maintain good ketosis levels without also fasting intermittently. Intermittent fasting is key to enabling me to lower my caloric input because of the momentum of the fasting phase carried over into the eating phase, e.g. smaller stomach and more effective metabolism. I currently fast about 12 hours per day (including the sleep phase), which doesn't sound like much but with the lowered caloric input it's actually pretty good. I can go longer easily when the circumstances demand it, and after crossing 16 hours I actually stop experiencing hunger completely. I plan to extend the fasting periods in the future, if easy and convenient. As for whether ketosis is necessary - I believe I would not be able to fast intermittently without it, or at least not comfortably, which is necessary for any lifestyle change to be sustainable. I'm not aware of any negative effects of being in ketosis for prolonged periods of time, and quite the opposite. I don't crave sugary foods anymore, and I dislike anything with even a trace of sweetness. I was surprised to discover how good the body really is at detecting what food is good for it, once in ketosis. My main food sources currently are avocado, egg, tahini and drinks based on almond or walnut milk. I'm also using vitamin and mineral supplements, mostly in fluid forms. I'm 42 and I wish I had known about keto as early in my life as possible, not when I was forced to explore it due to declining health. Ketosis gives you a stable level of energy through the day and allows you to fully focus on life and the tasks at hand.
  - dhimes 7y ago
    As an N of one, I present my situation: Since mid-January this year I have been fasting intemittently. I have zero calories before 5PM, and I am usually in bed by 10. I exercise most weeks between 4 and six days, but only two or so are "vigorous" for me. My workouts are mid-day. When I eat, I eat normally for me, which is lower carb and higher protein, but not (knowingly) keto or anything. I have lost about 10 pounds. I just got my blood lab results, and they are the worst numbers I have ever seen. Highest fasting glucose (borderline diabetic, a rise of 14 points or so from memory), highest cholesterol (doc's gonna make me take meds if it doesn't come down). I've done this before, but wouldn't I would "only" wait until 2, and I got bad (but not this bad) results as well. I decided to try again, making my eating window truly shorter, but alas... I was devastated by the results. Total bummer.
- koolba 7y ago
  Vigorous exercise, in particular sustained cardio, is the surest way to burn through your glycogen stores. Combined with intermittent fasting and a near-zero carb diet, it’s the fastest way to resume ketosis.
- wirrbel 7y ago
  I do water fasting (rather "bone broth fasting" like Dr. Jason Fung advocates in his talks on youtube and in his books), and also have done and will do keto when I am not fasting. I am not quite sure about the "health" class. So roughly speaking I am obese and I do think with every 3 kilograms I loose per month, I am healthier. So keto as a tool for loosing weight is really without a doubt healthy. The correlations between being overweight and associated risks are MUCH stronger than the correlations between food and associated risks. Now, if you dig deeper into books on keto and fasting by doctors, you see how fragile certain conclusions are that are now the consensus opinion in nutritional science. I am a data-scientist, trained biophysicist and I know I am not an epidemiologist and not a biologist, but I can tell "creative statistics" apart from not-suspicious ones, and a lot of central nutritional science studies that triggered the fat-fear seem to be highly deficient from a statistical perspective, hardly proving any causality. So I tend to be rather sceptical about dietary advice after 1950 unless it has been (a) shown in humans and not just in experiments with animals (b) based on studies that do interventions, i.e. change the behavior of humans rather than just surveying or asking what people do. What I also find fascinating is, how the fasting community and the keto community often reach similar conclusion while actually being kind of different communities advocating for different "resolutions". Anyway, what I was trying to say: If keto and fasting helps the normal weight range at steady 3kg/month, I do think it is healthy for me, when I am in a normal weight range, the priorities may change from "weight loss is really important" to other aspects.
- jvanderbot 7y ago
  Yes. Perhaps stronger effects w IF, according to this. https://www.businessinsider.com/fasting-diet-ketosis-brain-body-effects-2017-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/fasting-diet-ketosis-brain-b...
hellofunk 7y ago
> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. How do you do that? If the low-carb diet isn't enough, what is?
- CuriouslyC 7y ago
  Fasting
- kaibee 7y ago
  Low carb is generally considered to be under 100g carbs/day. Ketosis requires under 20g carbs/day.
  - whb07 7y ago
    under 50g and it depends on the physical activity of the individual. Meaning if you're a highly tuned physical machine then you can eat far more than 50g.
  - eatmyshorts 7y ago
    Closer to 50g/day, not 20....but the lower you go the more ketones your body produces.
    - richthegeek 7y ago
      This is a net/gross carb confusion. Less than 50g including fiber, or 20g excluding fiber.
  - wnmurphy 7y ago
    Ketosis is a normal supplemental metabolic state that the body enters in between meals to various degrees. There's no hard black/white macro requirement.
agumonkey 7y ago
isn't ketosis very subtle to maintain otherwise it can harmful effects ?
- PaulHoule 7y ago
  People confuse it with ketoacidosis, which is very dangerous. Ketosis is benign.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    indeed..
  - riku_iki 7y ago
    The biggest issue with ketogenic diets is elevated level of cholesterol, which is generally considered harmful, though there are different views on this topic.
    - throw_away 7y ago
      This is a side effect of how many people eating keto diets go all in on meat and cheeses. Vegan keto is possible: https://www.reddit.com/r/veganketo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganketo/
    - jnwatson 7y ago
      Lots of people on ketogenic diets are losing weight. The process of losing weight will naturally increase your cholesterol. You're right, there are different views on this topic, in particular in the types of cholesterol elevated and decreased.
    - stjohnswarts 7y ago
      I have always had very normal cholesterol numbers. It gives you a better HDL (good chol) to LDL(bad chol, maybe) ratio and is good for lowering triglycerides (definitely bad chol) which is the worst type of cholesterol. Your information is not true and is a common misconception about the diet.
wyager 7y ago
Everyone I know who is on a carnivore diet has a high enough fat:protein ratio to stay in ketosis most of/all the time. The value of that seems to be pretty common wisdom among carnivores.
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  It is possible, I have done it myself eating a lot of eggs and fatty red meat. Also, in my case I was also already in ketosis for an extended period of time, meaning my microbiome and cells were primed for ketosis. That said I have also done carnivore and also not been in ketosis, which I think is probably the norm for most people on carnivore because the protein/fat ratios aren't right. The commonality in ketosis carnivore and non-ketosis carnivore is removal of refined sugar/carbs which means no insulin spikes, which means steady levels of energy without crashing.
  - wirrbel 7y ago
    Meat also raises insulin, much less than carbs, but on a carnivore diet I can imagine this to happen. The keto diet with ratios has been designed as a diet for epileptics, so in a ratio that maintains both body weight in a healthy range and induces ketosis and avoids ceizures (note: 1920s medicine or something). So the high fat content kind of is there to actually give you the energy so that you don't loose weight. One aspect of the "carnivore" diet that is often overlooked, a "human carnivore in the stone age" will not have lived off of chicken breast and lean beef cuts, but easten the entire animal, i.e. the fat cuts as well that are surprisingly hard to get in a western country.
    - cageface 7y ago
      Meat raises insulin levels significantly. A steak spikes your insulin harder than a plate of spaghetti.
      - lanternslight 7y ago
        Study link?
text70 7y ago
I am having trouble agreeing with the statement that "...your body will convert the protein to glucose..." Could you elaborate on that logic?
- letharion 7y ago
  While several people refer to gluconeogenesis, to the best of my knowledge we _can_ make glucose from protein, but rarely do in practice. I have yet to see anyone convincingly show that we do. Also check out diet doctors take on it which refers to actual studies. "Does protein adversely affect blood sugar?" https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/protein https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/protein
  - uberduper 7y ago
    Anyone on a zero/near zero carb diet should be proof enough. We can't survive with _no_ glucose.
    - johnkpaul 7y ago
      This is so so true but so many people don’t believe this is possible. I wish there was a way to formally study this. Once my children are out of the house, I’m going 0 carb. I’m already pretty close to carnivore.
- dnhz 7y ago
  "The production of glucose from glucogenic amino acids involves these amino acids being converted to alpha keto acids and then to glucose, with both processes occurring in the liver. This mechanism predominates during catabolysis, rising as fasting and starvation increase in severity." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid
- pc86 7y ago
  This[0] is a good starting point. Dietary protein can readily be converted to glucose in the body and either stored as fat or used as energy. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3636610/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3636610/
consp 7y ago
I have but in my case it is not caused by continued low carbon diet and should be avoided and is not so nice due all the side effects it has. Everyone who takes any form of diabetic medication should ask their physician about the consequences as it might interfere with the medication or require adjustment and can cause acidosis even if you have normal glucose levels. On the other hand, especially for type 2 diabetics, there is some indication it might be beneficial (if done properly and coordinated).
- wirrbel 7y ago
  Ketoacidosis is of course a medical condition and not something one seeks out. Ketosis is fundamentally different, your bodies mode of metabolizing (body) fat in the state of fasting, which can also be provoked when eating a high-fat moderate protein and <20-30g carbohydrates diet. And yes, asking a physician may be a good idea if you suffer under certain conditions. Sometimes it may be valuable to find a physician that has knowledge on keto-diets, because that's not really something every physician learns about as a dietary choice.
brightball 7y ago
I always thought it wasn't recommended to stay in ketosis for more than 2 weeks at a time?
- wirrbel 7y ago
  I cannot say that it isn't recommended, because recommendations are quite diverse. But I haven't seen that recommendation before. Orthodox nutritionists would definitely advice against ketosis, potentially they may be fine with fasting-induced ketosis every once in a while (depends a bit on how they were trained). People who embrace a low-carb ketosis-inducing diet (aka "Keto diet") or embrace multi-day fasting don't consider it harmful really. For fasting there are of course certain limits but not due to ketosis but for other effects of not eating (refeed effect, general weight-considerations, etc. but there have been overweight people successfully fasting for months under supervision).
  - thrownblown 7y ago
    there was that one dude who went on a year plus water fast and lost like 300 lbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast
  - brightball 7y ago
    I believe that was the Atkins recommendation
teraku 7y ago
For my understanding this is mostly attributed to insuline resistance vs sensitivity. As you get older and overexposed to sugar, your resistance raises and in order to reverse a lot of the internal inflammations your body has produced from over-intake of sugar you need to force ketosis and burn calories with a low-carb diet. This in turn helps reduce internal fat and repair organ functions, fundamentally restoring hormone production and refreshing your brain as well. It does not mean that carbs in general are toxic, nor that this diet is recommended for everybody! Diets are very personal, it just becomes more and more common because sugar is added everywhere, people are getting older and older and obesity is a global problem. As such, most people are very insulin resistant and work better with low-carb/high-fat diets. This headline is one of the reasons there is so much misinformation in food and diets
skizm 7y ago
How does working out at a high intensity work when in a state of Ketosis? I lift weights and/or do HIIT 5x per week and occasionally add running on top of that. I've always been weary of going low carb or trying a keto diet because I feel like I just won't have the energy to continue my training regimen at its current intensity. The typical advice is to eat your allocated carbs 1-2 hours prior to your workout, however I feel like by not getting the right amount of carbs post-workout I'm basically wasting my time in the gym at best, and at worst asking for an injury due to not being able to recover completely in time for the next workout. Thoughts?
- sputknick 7y ago
  Not the author, but I have experience with this. For me it takes about a week of slugishness before my body adjusts. Once I'm adapted, my performance is actually better. This goes for heavy weights, low weight/high rep weights, and cardio.
  - zadokshi 7y ago
    The first few times it was like this for me. After years of doing keto I can get that keto feeling/energy/effect by doing one day of super low carbs and super low calories, I’ll wake up the next day wanting to spring out of bed like you wouldn’t believe.
- ebg13 7y ago
  > How does working out at a high intensity work when in a state of Ketosis? I've done this. You get tired much faster, you will not be able to sprint for nearly as long, your maximum lift significantly decreases, you hit the muscle fatigue point (can't lift again unless you lower the weight) very quickly. The usual solution among keto lifters is to have a carbload cheat day once per week _or_ to carb spike with I think (it's been a while) pure glucose syrup a measured amount just before your workout according to how much you think you'll actually use during the workout. The cheat day in practice works pretty well, because if you're slamming your body at the gym every day you can get back into ketosis very quickly after the initial induction phase is done, so you end up with a couple of days of keto per week but not the full week.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
Any specific reading on how to get into ketosis that you would suggest? Something that you find scientifically sound?
- lanternslight 7y ago
  Join the CSK group on FB.
- projektfu 7y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq
whiddershins 7y ago
I would like a citation on the protein to glucose claim. My understanding is the body would much rather run on ketones than go down that path.
- ebg13 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
- lanternslight 7y ago
  No citation, but If you think about it it makes sense: is you have no fat left, and aren't ingesting enough calories, your body would rather burn muscle than organs.
- wtetzner 7y ago
  My understanding is that the body will convert protein to Glucose when needed, but it is very carefully regulated, and will prefer ketones for cells that can run on them. However, some cells require glucose, and gluconeogenesis is important for that if you're eating low carb/in ketosis.
rconti 7y ago
Anything that requires me to radically change my diet to experiment with myself "just to see", that takes a minimum of 2-3 months, is a hard pass. It's just not that interesting to most of us for a vaguely hand-wavey possibly useful experiment.
- ryanSrich 7y ago
  Full-on keto may not be worth it, but I would highly suggest removing most carbs from your diet (<= 30g per meal). You'll feel completely different within 5 days. This is especially noticeable after the age of 30. I have no scientific backing or research for this, but I've had a number of friends and family make this small change and every single one has not gone back. It's not even that difficult if you already have a somewhat healthy diet.
  - dnhz 7y ago
    Yes you will feel like you have no energy during workouts. The primary fuel for muscles is glycogen. Cells use glucose by default. And fats are 9 cal/g, so they’re so easy to overeat. I don’t understand why limiting carbs makes any sense.
    - uberduper 7y ago
      > I don’t understand why limiting carbs makes any sense. Then why go around saying things like: > Yes you will feel like you have no energy during workouts. The primary fuel for muscles is glycogen. Cells use glucose by default. And fats are 9 cal/g, so they’re so easy to overeat.
      - dnhz 7y ago
        What I wrote makes perfect sense. Carbs fuel the body. Going low carb is miserable.
        wtetzner 7y ago
        > Carbs fuel the body. Going low carb is miserable. Having been on keto for a few months now, I disagree. I feel way better than when I'm eating carbs, and have so much more energy.
bad_user 7y ago
> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I've also seen values going over 4 mmol/L. In spite of popular belief, nothing happens, there's no magic at the end of that rainbow for most people. If you felt anything different, there's a high likelihood it was just self suggestion, aka placebo. Also most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two (aka starvation ketosis). People with a healthy metabolism cycle in and out of ketosis all the time. Also the idea that your microbiome has to change and your body/brain to adapt for you to feel any better and that it takes months ... is a complete myth. Your body takes only mere days to adjust to any dietary strategy. Also the dreaded keto flu is just dehydration from all the lost glycogen, which pulls a lot of water on its way out.
- spion 7y ago
  This depends a lot on the individual. I would suggest it to anyone who often has post-meal slumps, for example - its likely to work wonders for them.
- sizzle 7y ago
  Why did you give up? How we your energy levels? Did you drop weight easily?
  - bad_user 7y ago
    I gave up because I felt awful ... problems sleeping, strong heart palpitations, hair falling off, left foot going numb, etc... all symptoms of nutrient deficiencies, which I couldn't correct via food or with supplements and that started disappearing within a week after giving up. And that entire time I did not lose weight, I actually gained a pound or two. If you're interested in losing weight, find a strategy for eating less (by playing with what you eat or with meal timing). The only reason keto works for some people is because it leads to a spontaneous drop in appetite, due to cutting entire food groups from the diet, thus making the food you eat less palatable. And the extra protein sure helps. But it only works short term, after which you start enjoying bacon and butter, so the inevitable plateau happens and then you get the line about your metabolism needing to "heal" before losing weight, which is bullshit, as the causality is reversed (i.e. your metabolism is broken because you ate too much and exposed adipocytes tissue to an energy excess, aka energy poisoning, so the solution is to eat less and to lose weight). I've lost 55 pounds and kept it off, being almost at my ideal weight. Not with keto.
cies 7y ago
Afaik there is no top athlete on keto when performing: they are all on high-carb. Keto is the "burn your body fat" mode. Staying in keto by eating high fat low carb is a trick. Humans never had such easy access to fats as today. Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates.
- amanaplanacanal 7y ago
  > Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates. This can't possibly be true. Agriculture is only 12,000 years old or so, but people have been living in Europe for much longer than that. I'm in North America, and there are no fruits available locally for six months out of the year. Before agriculture people must have been living mostly from hunting.
  - cies 7y ago
    You think a large share of pre-settlement humans lived in non-(sub)tropical regions? I don't think so. We mostly staying in the warmth, and the few daredevils that left had a hard time.
- DrScump 7y ago
  You know the dietary practices of "all" top athletes? Athletes in sports favoring fast-twitch muscle presumably wouldn't do keto, but endurance athletes, sure. The SF Giants' Hunter Pence is a vocal keto practitioner.
teilo 7y ago
It is true that ketosis is more than low carb, but Gluconeogensis has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is a lot of wrong information out there about GNG. GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. GNG provides enough glucose for the tissues that cannot run on ketones (such as the kidneys). Without GNG, ketosis would not be possible. In fact, ketones regulate GNG, and prevent it from exceeding the needed maintenance levels. Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis. What prevent ketosis in stubborn cases? Insulin resistance. To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress. The process can be dramatically sped up with intermittent fasting.
- amanaplanacanal 7y ago
  Thank you! I see claims all the time that eating too much protein will kick you out of ketosis, without any actual science to back it up.
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  >GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. I never said GNG kicks people out of ketosis, I said protein to fat ratios will prohibit ketosis. Yes, in ketosis your body continues to produce minimal amounts of glucose, I never said anything to the contrary. However, GNG has a lot to do with ketosis vis-a-vis protein to fat ratios, protein to fat intake can not be to high or it will kick you out of ketosis because of GNG >Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis. If you over consume fat or carbs, they get stored as fat in fat cells. What happens when you over consume protein? Protein can not be stored as fat, it must first be converted to glucose, which the body will try to burn before it is stored in fat cells. This is why a high protein to fat ratio carnivore diet will prohibit ketosis or kick one out of ketosis, unlike a high fat to protein carnivore diet (again I never said the body stops producing glucose from protein in that situation, but the glucose production is minimal in ketosis because of the ratios and ketones remain the primary fuel source). >To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress. While generally true and correct, I can even come up with examples where this breaks down...whey oxalate being a perfect example. Whey oxalate will typically have 25g of protein and may have as low as 1 gram of carbs, but Whey oxalate will spike insulin in most people and throw most people out of ketosis.
uberduper 7y ago
> in protein rich diets your body will convert the protein to glucose which will continue to be the primary fuel for the cells in the brain/body. This is completely incorrect. Gluconeogenesis is stimulated by the pancreas releasing glucagon in response to low blood sugar. GNG happens in everyone regardless of diet when blood sugar is too low. It has nothing at all to do with the amount of dietary protein you consume. GNG happens in people in ketosis pretty constantly without stopping ketosis.

collyw 7y ago

I was about to ask if intermittent fasting would have the same effects as I get the impression that its a healthier way of getting into ketosis. (When I look, I don't see negative effects associated with IF, and I do with keto diets. The research changes a lot and the conclusions don't seem definitive, but I thought someone on here might have an educated opinion on the matter).

cagenut 7y ago
Your body goes into ketosis when it "runs out" of blood-sugar for long enough. It usually takes me 2 - 3 days of staying below 30 net grams (i'm a larger guy, for many people it requires going below 20). IF can be a part of that, in terms of helping you to control your eating and making the time-period at the end of those 2 - 3 days happen maybe a half-day sooner, but fundamentally it doesn't change carbs are carbs. Also you might find the relationship almost works the other way. Ketosis makes IF much easier. I haven't eaten breakfast in years. I don't even really consider that an IF regimen as much as like... once you get rid of the habit for a month or two you completely don't miss it and forget why you bothered.
ypcx 7y ago
In my personal case I'm not really able to enter and maintain good ketosis levels without also fasting intermittently. Intermittent fasting is key to enabling me to lower my caloric input because of the momentum of the fasting phase carried over into the eating phase, e.g. smaller stomach and more effective metabolism. I currently fast about 12 hours per day (including the sleep phase), which doesn't sound like much but with the lowered caloric input it's actually pretty good. I can go longer easily when the circumstances demand it, and after crossing 16 hours I actually stop experiencing hunger completely. I plan to extend the fasting periods in the future, if easy and convenient. As for whether ketosis is necessary - I believe I would not be able to fast intermittently without it, or at least not comfortably, which is necessary for any lifestyle change to be sustainable. I'm not aware of any negative effects of being in ketosis for prolonged periods of time, and quite the opposite. I don't crave sugary foods anymore, and I dislike anything with even a trace of sweetness. I was surprised to discover how good the body really is at detecting what food is good for it, once in ketosis. My main food sources currently are avocado, egg, tahini and drinks based on almond or walnut milk. I'm also using vitamin and mineral supplements, mostly in fluid forms. I'm 42 and I wish I had known about keto as early in my life as possible, not when I was forced to explore it due to declining health. Ketosis gives you a stable level of energy through the day and allows you to fully focus on life and the tasks at hand.
- dhimes 7y ago
  As an N of one, I present my situation: Since mid-January this year I have been fasting intemittently. I have zero calories before 5PM, and I am usually in bed by 10. I exercise most weeks between 4 and six days, but only two or so are "vigorous" for me. My workouts are mid-day. When I eat, I eat normally for me, which is lower carb and higher protein, but not (knowingly) keto or anything. I have lost about 10 pounds. I just got my blood lab results, and they are the worst numbers I have ever seen. Highest fasting glucose (borderline diabetic, a rise of 14 points or so from memory), highest cholesterol (doc's gonna make me take meds if it doesn't come down). I've done this before, but wouldn't I would "only" wait until 2, and I got bad (but not this bad) results as well. I decided to try again, making my eating window truly shorter, but alas... I was devastated by the results. Total bummer.
koolba 7y ago
Vigorous exercise, in particular sustained cardio, is the surest way to burn through your glycogen stores. Combined with intermittent fasting and a near-zero carb diet, it’s the fastest way to resume ketosis.
wirrbel 7y ago
I do water fasting (rather "bone broth fasting" like Dr. Jason Fung advocates in his talks on youtube and in his books), and also have done and will do keto when I am not fasting. I am not quite sure about the "health" class. So roughly speaking I am obese and I do think with every 3 kilograms I loose per month, I am healthier. So keto as a tool for loosing weight is really without a doubt healthy. The correlations between being overweight and associated risks are MUCH stronger than the correlations between food and associated risks. Now, if you dig deeper into books on keto and fasting by doctors, you see how fragile certain conclusions are that are now the consensus opinion in nutritional science. I am a data-scientist, trained biophysicist and I know I am not an epidemiologist and not a biologist, but I can tell "creative statistics" apart from not-suspicious ones, and a lot of central nutritional science studies that triggered the fat-fear seem to be highly deficient from a statistical perspective, hardly proving any causality. So I tend to be rather sceptical about dietary advice after 1950 unless it has been (a) shown in humans and not just in experiments with animals (b) based on studies that do interventions, i.e. change the behavior of humans rather than just surveying or asking what people do. What I also find fascinating is, how the fasting community and the keto community often reach similar conclusion while actually being kind of different communities advocating for different "resolutions". Anyway, what I was trying to say: If keto and fasting helps the normal weight range at steady 3kg/month, I do think it is healthy for me, when I am in a normal weight range, the priorities may change from "weight loss is really important" to other aspects.
jvanderbot 7y ago
Yes. Perhaps stronger effects w IF, according to this. https://www.businessinsider.com/fasting-diet-ketosis-brain-body-effects-2017-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/fasting-diet-ketosis-brain-b...

hellofunk 7y ago

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. How do you do that? If the low-carb diet isn't enough, what is?

CuriouslyC 7y ago
Fasting
kaibee 7y ago
Low carb is generally considered to be under 100g carbs/day. Ketosis requires under 20g carbs/day.
- whb07 7y ago
  under 50g and it depends on the physical activity of the individual. Meaning if you're a highly tuned physical machine then you can eat far more than 50g.
- eatmyshorts 7y ago
  Closer to 50g/day, not 20....but the lower you go the more ketones your body produces.
  - richthegeek 7y ago
    This is a net/gross carb confusion. Less than 50g including fiber, or 20g excluding fiber.
- wnmurphy 7y ago
  Ketosis is a normal supplemental metabolic state that the body enters in between meals to various degrees. There's no hard black/white macro requirement.

agumonkey 7y ago

isn't ketosis very subtle to maintain otherwise it can harmful effects ?

PaulHoule 7y ago
People confuse it with ketoacidosis, which is very dangerous. Ketosis is benign.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  indeed..
- riku_iki 7y ago
  The biggest issue with ketogenic diets is elevated level of cholesterol, which is generally considered harmful, though there are different views on this topic.
  - throw_away 7y ago
    This is a side effect of how many people eating keto diets go all in on meat and cheeses. Vegan keto is possible: https://www.reddit.com/r/veganketo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganketo/
  - jnwatson 7y ago
    Lots of people on ketogenic diets are losing weight. The process of losing weight will naturally increase your cholesterol. You're right, there are different views on this topic, in particular in the types of cholesterol elevated and decreased.
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    I have always had very normal cholesterol numbers. It gives you a better HDL (good chol) to LDL(bad chol, maybe) ratio and is good for lowering triglycerides (definitely bad chol) which is the worst type of cholesterol. Your information is not true and is a common misconception about the diet.

wyager 7y ago

Everyone I know who is on a carnivore diet has a high enough fat:protein ratio to stay in ketosis most of/all the time. The value of that seems to be pretty common wisdom among carnivores.

throwaway_tech 7y ago
It is possible, I have done it myself eating a lot of eggs and fatty red meat. Also, in my case I was also already in ketosis for an extended period of time, meaning my microbiome and cells were primed for ketosis. That said I have also done carnivore and also not been in ketosis, which I think is probably the norm for most people on carnivore because the protein/fat ratios aren't right. The commonality in ketosis carnivore and non-ketosis carnivore is removal of refined sugar/carbs which means no insulin spikes, which means steady levels of energy without crashing.
- wirrbel 7y ago
  Meat also raises insulin, much less than carbs, but on a carnivore diet I can imagine this to happen. The keto diet with ratios has been designed as a diet for epileptics, so in a ratio that maintains both body weight in a healthy range and induces ketosis and avoids ceizures (note: 1920s medicine or something). So the high fat content kind of is there to actually give you the energy so that you don't loose weight. One aspect of the "carnivore" diet that is often overlooked, a "human carnivore in the stone age" will not have lived off of chicken breast and lean beef cuts, but easten the entire animal, i.e. the fat cuts as well that are surprisingly hard to get in a western country.
  - cageface 7y ago
    Meat raises insulin levels significantly. A steak spikes your insulin harder than a plate of spaghetti.
    - lanternslight 7y ago
      Study link?

text70 7y ago

I am having trouble agreeing with the statement that "...your body will convert the protein to glucose..." Could you elaborate on that logic?

letharion 7y ago
While several people refer to gluconeogenesis, to the best of my knowledge we _can_ make glucose from protein, but rarely do in practice. I have yet to see anyone convincingly show that we do. Also check out diet doctors take on it which refers to actual studies. "Does protein adversely affect blood sugar?" https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/protein https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/protein
- uberduper 7y ago
  Anyone on a zero/near zero carb diet should be proof enough. We can't survive with _no_ glucose.
  - johnkpaul 7y ago
    This is so so true but so many people don’t believe this is possible. I wish there was a way to formally study this. Once my children are out of the house, I’m going 0 carb. I’m already pretty close to carnivore.
dnhz 7y ago
"The production of glucose from glucogenic amino acids involves these amino acids being converted to alpha keto acids and then to glucose, with both processes occurring in the liver. This mechanism predominates during catabolysis, rising as fasting and starvation increase in severity." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid
pc86 7y ago
This[0] is a good starting point. Dietary protein can readily be converted to glucose in the body and either stored as fat or used as energy. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3636610/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3636610/

consp 7y ago

I have but in my case it is not caused by continued low carbon diet and should be avoided and is not so nice due all the side effects it has. Everyone who takes any form of diabetic medication should ask their physician about the consequences as it might interfere with the medication or require adjustment and can cause acidosis even if you have normal glucose levels. On the other hand, especially for type 2 diabetics, there is some indication it might be beneficial (if done properly and coordinated).

wirrbel 7y ago
Ketoacidosis is of course a medical condition and not something one seeks out. Ketosis is fundamentally different, your bodies mode of metabolizing (body) fat in the state of fasting, which can also be provoked when eating a high-fat moderate protein and <20-30g carbohydrates diet. And yes, asking a physician may be a good idea if you suffer under certain conditions. Sometimes it may be valuable to find a physician that has knowledge on keto-diets, because that's not really something every physician learns about as a dietary choice.

brightball 7y ago

I always thought it wasn't recommended to stay in ketosis for more than 2 weeks at a time?

wirrbel 7y ago
I cannot say that it isn't recommended, because recommendations are quite diverse. But I haven't seen that recommendation before. Orthodox nutritionists would definitely advice against ketosis, potentially they may be fine with fasting-induced ketosis every once in a while (depends a bit on how they were trained). People who embrace a low-carb ketosis-inducing diet (aka "Keto diet") or embrace multi-day fasting don't consider it harmful really. For fasting there are of course certain limits but not due to ketosis but for other effects of not eating (refeed effect, general weight-considerations, etc. but there have been overweight people successfully fasting for months under supervision).
- thrownblown 7y ago
  there was that one dude who went on a year plus water fast and lost like 300 lbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast
- brightball 7y ago
  I believe that was the Atkins recommendation

teraku 7y ago

For my understanding this is mostly attributed to insuline resistance vs sensitivity. As you get older and overexposed to sugar, your resistance raises and in order to reverse a lot of the internal inflammations your body has produced from over-intake of sugar you need to force ketosis and burn calories with a low-carb diet. This in turn helps reduce internal fat and repair organ functions, fundamentally restoring hormone production and refreshing your brain as well. It does not mean that carbs in general are toxic, nor that this diet is recommended for everybody! Diets are very personal, it just becomes more and more common because sugar is added everywhere, people are getting older and older and obesity is a global problem. As such, most people are very insulin resistant and work better with low-carb/high-fat diets. This headline is one of the reasons there is so much misinformation in food and diets

skizm 7y ago

How does working out at a high intensity work when in a state of Ketosis? I lift weights and/or do HIIT 5x per week and occasionally add running on top of that. I've always been weary of going low carb or trying a keto diet because I feel like I just won't have the energy to continue my training regimen at its current intensity. The typical advice is to eat your allocated carbs 1-2 hours prior to your workout, however I feel like by not getting the right amount of carbs post-workout I'm basically wasting my time in the gym at best, and at worst asking for an injury due to not being able to recover completely in time for the next workout. Thoughts?

sputknick 7y ago
Not the author, but I have experience with this. For me it takes about a week of slugishness before my body adjusts. Once I'm adapted, my performance is actually better. This goes for heavy weights, low weight/high rep weights, and cardio.
- zadokshi 7y ago
  The first few times it was like this for me. After years of doing keto I can get that keto feeling/energy/effect by doing one day of super low carbs and super low calories, I’ll wake up the next day wanting to spring out of bed like you wouldn’t believe.
ebg13 7y ago
> How does working out at a high intensity work when in a state of Ketosis? I've done this. You get tired much faster, you will not be able to sprint for nearly as long, your maximum lift significantly decreases, you hit the muscle fatigue point (can't lift again unless you lower the weight) very quickly. The usual solution among keto lifters is to have a carbload cheat day once per week _or_ to carb spike with I think (it's been a while) pure glucose syrup a measured amount just before your workout according to how much you think you'll actually use during the workout. The cheat day in practice works pretty well, because if you're slamming your body at the gym every day you can get back into ketosis very quickly after the initial induction phase is done, so you end up with a couple of days of keto per week but not the full week.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

Any specific reading on how to get into ketosis that you would suggest? Something that you find scientifically sound?

lanternslight 7y ago
Join the CSK group on FB.
projektfu 7y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

whiddershins 7y ago

I would like a citation on the protein to glucose claim. My understanding is the body would much rather run on ketones than go down that path.

ebg13 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
lanternslight 7y ago
No citation, but If you think about it it makes sense: is you have no fat left, and aren't ingesting enough calories, your body would rather burn muscle than organs.
wtetzner 7y ago
My understanding is that the body will convert protein to Glucose when needed, but it is very carefully regulated, and will prefer ketones for cells that can run on them. However, some cells require glucose, and gluconeogenesis is important for that if you're eating low carb/in ketosis.

rconti 7y ago

Anything that requires me to radically change my diet to experiment with myself "just to see", that takes a minimum of 2-3 months, is a hard pass. It's just not that interesting to most of us for a vaguely hand-wavey possibly useful experiment.

ryanSrich 7y ago
Full-on keto may not be worth it, but I would highly suggest removing most carbs from your diet (<= 30g per meal). You'll feel completely different within 5 days. This is especially noticeable after the age of 30. I have no scientific backing or research for this, but I've had a number of friends and family make this small change and every single one has not gone back. It's not even that difficult if you already have a somewhat healthy diet.
- dnhz 7y ago
  Yes you will feel like you have no energy during workouts. The primary fuel for muscles is glycogen. Cells use glucose by default. And fats are 9 cal/g, so they’re so easy to overeat. I don’t understand why limiting carbs makes any sense.
  - uberduper 7y ago
    > I don’t understand why limiting carbs makes any sense. Then why go around saying things like: > Yes you will feel like you have no energy during workouts. The primary fuel for muscles is glycogen. Cells use glucose by default. And fats are 9 cal/g, so they’re so easy to overeat.
    - dnhz 7y ago
      What I wrote makes perfect sense. Carbs fuel the body. Going low carb is miserable.
      - wtetzner 7y ago
        > Carbs fuel the body. Going low carb is miserable. Having been on keto for a few months now, I disagree. I feel way better than when I'm eating carbs, and have so much more energy.

bad_user 7y ago

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I've also seen values going over 4 mmol/L. In spite of popular belief, nothing happens, there's no magic at the end of that rainbow for most people. If you felt anything different, there's a high likelihood it was just self suggestion, aka placebo. Also most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two (aka starvation ketosis). People with a healthy metabolism cycle in and out of ketosis all the time. Also the idea that your microbiome has to change and your body/brain to adapt for you to feel any better and that it takes months ... is a complete myth. Your body takes only mere days to adjust to any dietary strategy. Also the dreaded keto flu is just dehydration from all the lost glycogen, which pulls a lot of water on its way out.

spion 7y ago
This depends a lot on the individual. I would suggest it to anyone who often has post-meal slumps, for example - its likely to work wonders for them.
sizzle 7y ago
Why did you give up? How we your energy levels? Did you drop weight easily?
- bad_user 7y ago
  I gave up because I felt awful ... problems sleeping, strong heart palpitations, hair falling off, left foot going numb, etc... all symptoms of nutrient deficiencies, which I couldn't correct via food or with supplements and that started disappearing within a week after giving up. And that entire time I did not lose weight, I actually gained a pound or two. If you're interested in losing weight, find a strategy for eating less (by playing with what you eat or with meal timing). The only reason keto works for some people is because it leads to a spontaneous drop in appetite, due to cutting entire food groups from the diet, thus making the food you eat less palatable. And the extra protein sure helps. But it only works short term, after which you start enjoying bacon and butter, so the inevitable plateau happens and then you get the line about your metabolism needing to "heal" before losing weight, which is bullshit, as the causality is reversed (i.e. your metabolism is broken because you ate too much and exposed adipocytes tissue to an energy excess, aka energy poisoning, so the solution is to eat less and to lose weight). I've lost 55 pounds and kept it off, being almost at my ideal weight. Not with keto.

cies 7y ago

Afaik there is no top athlete on keto when performing: they are all on high-carb. Keto is the "burn your body fat" mode. Staying in keto by eating high fat low carb is a trick. Humans never had such easy access to fats as today. Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates.

amanaplanacanal 7y ago
> Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates. This can't possibly be true. Agriculture is only 12,000 years old or so, but people have been living in Europe for much longer than that. I'm in North America, and there are no fruits available locally for six months out of the year. Before agriculture people must have been living mostly from hunting.
- cies 7y ago
  You think a large share of pre-settlement humans lived in non-(sub)tropical regions? I don't think so. We mostly staying in the warmth, and the few daredevils that left had a hard time.
DrScump 7y ago
You know the dietary practices of "all" top athletes? Athletes in sports favoring fast-twitch muscle presumably wouldn't do keto, but endurance athletes, sure. The SF Giants' Hunter Pence is a vocal keto practitioner.

teilo 7y ago

It is true that ketosis is more than low carb, but Gluconeogensis has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is a lot of wrong information out there about GNG. GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. GNG provides enough glucose for the tissues that cannot run on ketones (such as the kidneys). Without GNG, ketosis would not be possible. In fact, ketones regulate GNG, and prevent it from exceeding the needed maintenance levels. Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis. What prevent ketosis in stubborn cases? Insulin resistance. To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress. The process can be dramatically sped up with intermittent fasting.

amanaplanacanal 7y ago
Thank you! I see claims all the time that eating too much protein will kick you out of ketosis, without any actual science to back it up.
throwaway_tech 7y ago
>GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. I never said GNG kicks people out of ketosis, I said protein to fat ratios will prohibit ketosis. Yes, in ketosis your body continues to produce minimal amounts of glucose, I never said anything to the contrary. However, GNG has a lot to do with ketosis vis-a-vis protein to fat ratios, protein to fat intake can not be to high or it will kick you out of ketosis because of GNG >Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis. If you over consume fat or carbs, they get stored as fat in fat cells. What happens when you over consume protein? Protein can not be stored as fat, it must first be converted to glucose, which the body will try to burn before it is stored in fat cells. This is why a high protein to fat ratio carnivore diet will prohibit ketosis or kick one out of ketosis, unlike a high fat to protein carnivore diet (again I never said the body stops producing glucose from protein in that situation, but the glucose production is minimal in ketosis because of the ratios and ketones remain the primary fuel source). >To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress. While generally true and correct, I can even come up with examples where this breaks down...whey oxalate being a perfect example. Whey oxalate will typically have 25g of protein and may have as low as 1 gram of carbs, but Whey oxalate will spike insulin in most people and throw most people out of ketosis.

uberduper 7y ago

> in protein rich diets your body will convert the protein to glucose which will continue to be the primary fuel for the cells in the brain/body. This is completely incorrect. Gluconeogenesis is stimulated by the pancreas releasing glucagon in response to low blood sugar. GNG happens in everyone regardless of diet when blood sugar is too low. It has nothing at all to do with the amount of dietary protein you consume. GNG happens in people in ketosis pretty constantly without stopping ketosis.