5 ms·

It's not purely "free market" to restrict housing supply, but the freedom to influence politics to your own advantage (like NIMBY's restricting housing supply)

by fjp 7y ago

It's not purely "free market" to restrict housing supply, but the freedom to influence politics to your own advantage (like NIMBY's restricting housing supply) is absolutely an effect of the free market system.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
Why wouldn't buying political advantage be just as bad under socialism or communism, etc?
- fjp 7y ago
  Oh it still is. Capitalism is not exactly equal to "free market". There's still a hell of a lot of market under socialism. I'm just pointing out that you have to regulate SOMETHING. Regulating nothing = people amassing wealth and buying political influence = those current power holders regulating everyone else so the current power holders just continue to win. Then you don't have your "free market" anymore. It's inherently unstable. In my opinion, the wealthy should have no more political power than the poor. But of course the wealthy have an outsized ability to influence politics. So they can work to repeal or nullify the very laws meant to reduce their influence - it's a fight that will never end and requires working and poor people to constantly be aware, organizing, and participating in politics to have any chance at all. Or maybe one day, in my dream world, the rich and powerful will realize hey it's not so bad to have a workforce that is educated and healthy and has enough money in their pocket to buy the things we produce without taking out loans! And then we all leave in peace and harmony...
  - dr_dshiv 7y ago
    > There's still a hell of a lot of market under socialism Completely agree. It's frustrating, because with words like "capitalism" and "socialism", why use words at all? Nobody means the same thing -- yet most people want the same thing -- it's really frustrating. I view it as a really important failure of science and philosophy. And a great opportunity for simulations in the service of empirical morality. Which reminds me: Adam Smith's advisor wrote a whole tract on "Moral Computation" back in the early 1700s
    - giggles_giggles 7y ago
      > Completely agree. It's frustrating, because with words like "capitalism" and "socialism", why use words at all? Nobody means the same thing And there's the reason why, in my original post at the beginning of this sub-thread, I used neither of those terms, in order to communicate more precisely. Centrally planned economies are inferior to freer economies, whether the top-down controls are imposed by democracy or autocracy; both create economic inefficiencies. History has borne that out repeatedly. But of course, that statement disregards non-economic externalities like environmental impacts, and one may want a central power to map non-economic externalities onto economic costs through e.g. taxes and fines for polluting because the economic inefficiencies incurred are worth the tradeoff (like having clean water/air). Then the market can price those non-economic externalities accordingly, once the market is appropriately regulated.
      - fjp 7y ago
        Each of these systems is degrees of the other as well, and that seems proper for the exact reasons you mentioned - not including desired externalities in pricing/market dynamics. There are a few things that I believe only work in a moral way when they are taken out of the hands of capitalist pursuit-of-profit dynamic: * Healthcare: What does the demand curve look like when your alternative is death or a painful, limited life? * Pollution/Environmental damage control: Without regulation the chemical company owner has zero incentive not to dump their leftovers in the creek. * Access to quality education: Equality of opportunity * Access to housing: Simply a question of morality. In the US at least, we have so much goddamn money and so much goddamn land and the ability to build giant buildings on that land. No one should be homeless.
      - skybrian 7y ago
        There is a bit of a puzzle because many large corporations do pretty well with hierarchical planning and competition involves lots of duplicate effort. The markets also seem to encourage centralization for economy of scale? (Consider big tech, the airline industry, and index funds.)
        7y ago

by fjp 7y ago

dr_dshiv 7y ago

Why wouldn't buying political advantage be just as bad under socialism or communism, etc?

fjp 7y ago
Oh it still is. Capitalism is not exactly equal to "free market". There's still a hell of a lot of market under socialism. I'm just pointing out that you have to regulate SOMETHING. Regulating nothing = people amassing wealth and buying political influence = those current power holders regulating everyone else so the current power holders just continue to win. Then you don't have your "free market" anymore. It's inherently unstable. In my opinion, the wealthy should have no more political power than the poor. But of course the wealthy have an outsized ability to influence politics. So they can work to repeal or nullify the very laws meant to reduce their influence - it's a fight that will never end and requires working and poor people to constantly be aware, organizing, and participating in politics to have any chance at all. Or maybe one day, in my dream world, the rich and powerful will realize hey it's not so bad to have a workforce that is educated and healthy and has enough money in their pocket to buy the things we produce without taking out loans! And then we all leave in peace and harmony...
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  > There's still a hell of a lot of market under socialism Completely agree. It's frustrating, because with words like "capitalism" and "socialism", why use words at all? Nobody means the same thing -- yet most people want the same thing -- it's really frustrating. I view it as a really important failure of science and philosophy. And a great opportunity for simulations in the service of empirical morality. Which reminds me: Adam Smith's advisor wrote a whole tract on "Moral Computation" back in the early 1700s
  - giggles_giggles 7y ago
    > Completely agree. It's frustrating, because with words like "capitalism" and "socialism", why use words at all? Nobody means the same thing And there's the reason why, in my original post at the beginning of this sub-thread, I used neither of those terms, in order to communicate more precisely. Centrally planned economies are inferior to freer economies, whether the top-down controls are imposed by democracy or autocracy; both create economic inefficiencies. History has borne that out repeatedly. But of course, that statement disregards non-economic externalities like environmental impacts, and one may want a central power to map non-economic externalities onto economic costs through e.g. taxes and fines for polluting because the economic inefficiencies incurred are worth the tradeoff (like having clean water/air). Then the market can price those non-economic externalities accordingly, once the market is appropriately regulated.
    - fjp 7y ago
      Each of these systems is degrees of the other as well, and that seems proper for the exact reasons you mentioned - not including desired externalities in pricing/market dynamics. There are a few things that I believe only work in a moral way when they are taken out of the hands of capitalist pursuit-of-profit dynamic: * Healthcare: What does the demand curve look like when your alternative is death or a painful, limited life? * Pollution/Environmental damage control: Without regulation the chemical company owner has zero incentive not to dump their leftovers in the creek. * Access to quality education: Equality of opportunity * Access to housing: Simply a question of morality. In the US at least, we have so much goddamn money and so much goddamn land and the ability to build giant buildings on that land. No one should be homeless.
    - skybrian 7y ago
      There is a bit of a puzzle because many large corporations do pretty well with hierarchical planning and competition involves lots of duplicate effort. The markets also seem to encourage centralization for economy of scale? (Consider big tech, the airline industry, and index funds.)
      - 7y ago