7 ms·

Alternatively, if wages were competitive in Canada (even considering cost of living and health care) there would be no reason to move. Personally, I'd much rath

by kaaie 7y ago

Alternatively, if wages were competitive in Canada (even considering cost of living and health care) there would be no reason to move. Personally, I'd much rather be in Canada to be near my family but I'd be making 1/2 the wage and have less talent to learn and grow from.

prlambert 7y ago
Yes there still would be: weather. There's literally no place in Canada that doesn't have a generally unpleasant outdoor experience for at least half the year. I say that as a proud Canadian. It's honestly the main thing holding my family from moving back. My wife is from Vancouver and hates snow. I'm from Calgary and can't take rain (I did 3 winters straight in Vancouver promising myself to never do another until I finally got out). We've been looking for somewhere in Canada and we can't find a solution. It may sound small but it has a major impact on our happiness, energy levels, and overall well-being.
- frandroid 7y ago
  Toronto has none of Vancouver's rain and almost none of Calgary's snow. I wear running shoes for all save maybe 3 or 4 weeks of winter. -15 is considered a deep freeze and happens about 3 times per winter. What are you waiting for?
  - prlambert 7y ago
    My wife is a UofT grad, so spent 4 years in Toronto. That's where her snow feelings come from – she still tells stories of marching to class in -20C and snow. It may not be Calgary, but it's not California either. Maybe we're wimps, but such is the situation we find ourselves in! Maybe we'll be back some day. Toronto is the most likely. On topic for the parent – we're both Googlers but right now Google has no tech employees in Toronto proper (it's all sales and marketing). Waterloo is the only product/eng office and that's a tough commute. I'm not sure if that is changing with this announcement.
    - ialyos 7y ago
      That isn't true. Downtown Toronto has multiple Google engineers. I know one in brain and one in cloud. One has been in TO for ~2.5 years, the other for 1 year. As far as I know the only way to get into the office is by special permission. One of them only got their role because they said they were quitting due to the waterloo commute. Fwiw I'm a Canadian that just signed a Google offer to work out of downtown SF because I hate the winter too. I think people care more or less about the weather based on their hobbies / interests.
      - ta416425 7y ago
        The number of engineers at Google Toronto is so small that they're the exception that proves the rule, though. For all intents and purposes beyond some very special cases (and the Hinton stuff) you can treat the site as having no engineering.
        balfirevic 7y ago
        > The number of engineers at Google Toronto is so small that they're the exception that proves the rule, though. Exceptions don't prove the rule.
        selimthegrim 7y ago
        The point of this idiom is that they end up not being exceptions at all.
        angry_octet 7y ago
        That is not what I understand it to mean -- rather, the opposite. That is, finding an engineer at the Toronto office is so improbable that it is remarkable, hence you are reminded that it is normally an engineer free zone. There are some idioms that do mean it is unexceptional. You might be familiar with the Pratchettism "Million-to-one chances happen nine times out of ten."
      - 7y ago
  - arcosdev 7y ago
    Huh? Toronto's weather is all over the map. One second its -17C, next it's flooding, in the summer 35C+ happens on the regular. Toronto has crazy weather.
    - frandroid 7y ago
      The parent post just complained about winter, not summer...
  - j45 7y ago
    After many years of visiting Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal yearly, for more than a week at a time.. Toronto is not perfect, it has some of the worst weather in Canada. Summers are too hot (due to humidity), and the winter is cold and windy (due to humidity). It’s not much different than most places in Canada but the lakes add a bite to the -15 to make it feel like the rest of the country (save Vancouver). The rain is brutal in Vancouver, but can keep you busy like cold does in the rest of Canada. Canada’s winter months are synonymous with precipitation, and you might be surprised to find where the most sunshine is. Most of my friends from Toronto rarely or meaningfully ever leave Toronto to have an informed opinion of all 4 seasons nationally. Commuting time takes away years of waking living time in GTA and GVRC unless you live downtown, except many startups are leaving downtown for affordability and keeping their people happy. All of this can be balanced away if you get other things that are worth it, including market size relative to Canada. There are a few entrepreneurial pockets like Waterloo, and even Kelowna that are worth paying attention to. I don’t live in any cities listed here but travel often instead.
- jariel 7y ago
  " There's literally no place in Canada that doesn't have a generally unpleasant outdoor experience for at least half the year." Much of BC. The rain is not that bad. Also, winter is not that bad at all, it's really the long thaw that bites. And if you live near hills and the countryside, it's fun. Weather is a barrier to people coming to Canada, but it's generally not a reason people leave.
buzzkillington 7y ago
Half is pretty generous, for mid/seniour developers it starts at a quarter and gets worse. I was looking to move because I like colder weather/climate change related reasons and I had one recruiter tell me "You can't possibly ever make that much, that's CEO pay!".
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  Come work at Google Waterloo.
- raydev 7y ago
  Several Bay Area companies are opening/expanding offices up here, especially in the last year. I've joined one of them and I suggest you start looking around. At least in Toronto.
deepGem 7y ago
I still don't understand the pay rhetoric in Canada. I live in Bangalore, and I make more or less the same pay as in Toronto for nearly 1/5th the cost of living. Why are salaries so low in Canada ? Now at least owing to the US immigration fiasco, more labour should move in and salaries should technically rise - but I don't see that happening. Not sure why. Competitive salaries on par with California or even NYC will have a dramatic impact on the influx of immigrants.
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  Unfortunately top talent that wants a higher salary over all else emigrates to the US. Those of us that remain are in a lower bargaining position. And there's a steady stream of immigrants. Also the quality of the work here is mostly miserable. There's not a lot of interesting stuff. Things are better if you can find something outside of Toronto where the cost of living is ridiculous. One advantage of the Google Waterloo office...
- triceratops 7y ago
  > I live in Bangalore, and I make more or less the same pay as in Toronto for nearly 1/5th the cost of living. You sound like an outlier mate.
shdh 7y ago
Definitely less talent.

by kaaie 7y ago

prlambert 7y ago

Yes there still would be: weather. There's literally no place in Canada that doesn't have a generally unpleasant outdoor experience for at least half the year. I say that as a proud Canadian. It's honestly the main thing holding my family from moving back. My wife is from Vancouver and hates snow. I'm from Calgary and can't take rain (I did 3 winters straight in Vancouver promising myself to never do another until I finally got out). We've been looking for somewhere in Canada and we can't find a solution. It may sound small but it has a major impact on our happiness, energy levels, and overall well-being.

frandroid 7y ago
Toronto has none of Vancouver's rain and almost none of Calgary's snow. I wear running shoes for all save maybe 3 or 4 weeks of winter. -15 is considered a deep freeze and happens about 3 times per winter. What are you waiting for?
- prlambert 7y ago
  My wife is a UofT grad, so spent 4 years in Toronto. That's where her snow feelings come from – she still tells stories of marching to class in -20C and snow. It may not be Calgary, but it's not California either. Maybe we're wimps, but such is the situation we find ourselves in! Maybe we'll be back some day. Toronto is the most likely. On topic for the parent – we're both Googlers but right now Google has no tech employees in Toronto proper (it's all sales and marketing). Waterloo is the only product/eng office and that's a tough commute. I'm not sure if that is changing with this announcement.
  - ialyos 7y ago
    That isn't true. Downtown Toronto has multiple Google engineers. I know one in brain and one in cloud. One has been in TO for ~2.5 years, the other for 1 year. As far as I know the only way to get into the office is by special permission. One of them only got their role because they said they were quitting due to the waterloo commute. Fwiw I'm a Canadian that just signed a Google offer to work out of downtown SF because I hate the winter too. I think people care more or less about the weather based on their hobbies / interests.
    - ta416425 7y ago
      The number of engineers at Google Toronto is so small that they're the exception that proves the rule, though. For all intents and purposes beyond some very special cases (and the Hinton stuff) you can treat the site as having no engineering.
      - balfirevic 7y ago
        > The number of engineers at Google Toronto is so small that they're the exception that proves the rule, though. Exceptions don't prove the rule.
        selimthegrim 7y ago
        The point of this idiom is that they end up not being exceptions at all.
        angry_octet 7y ago
        That is not what I understand it to mean -- rather, the opposite. That is, finding an engineer at the Toronto office is so improbable that it is remarkable, hence you are reminded that it is normally an engineer free zone. There are some idioms that do mean it is unexceptional. You might be familiar with the Pratchettism "Million-to-one chances happen nine times out of ten."
    - 7y ago
- arcosdev 7y ago
  Huh? Toronto's weather is all over the map. One second its -17C, next it's flooding, in the summer 35C+ happens on the regular. Toronto has crazy weather.
  - frandroid 7y ago
    The parent post just complained about winter, not summer...
- j45 7y ago
  After many years of visiting Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal yearly, for more than a week at a time.. Toronto is not perfect, it has some of the worst weather in Canada. Summers are too hot (due to humidity), and the winter is cold and windy (due to humidity). It’s not much different than most places in Canada but the lakes add a bite to the -15 to make it feel like the rest of the country (save Vancouver). The rain is brutal in Vancouver, but can keep you busy like cold does in the rest of Canada. Canada’s winter months are synonymous with precipitation, and you might be surprised to find where the most sunshine is. Most of my friends from Toronto rarely or meaningfully ever leave Toronto to have an informed opinion of all 4 seasons nationally. Commuting time takes away years of waking living time in GTA and GVRC unless you live downtown, except many startups are leaving downtown for affordability and keeping their people happy. All of this can be balanced away if you get other things that are worth it, including market size relative to Canada. There are a few entrepreneurial pockets like Waterloo, and even Kelowna that are worth paying attention to. I don’t live in any cities listed here but travel often instead.
jariel 7y ago
" There's literally no place in Canada that doesn't have a generally unpleasant outdoor experience for at least half the year." Much of BC. The rain is not that bad. Also, winter is not that bad at all, it's really the long thaw that bites. And if you live near hills and the countryside, it's fun. Weather is a barrier to people coming to Canada, but it's generally not a reason people leave.

buzzkillington 7y ago

Half is pretty generous, for mid/seniour developers it starts at a quarter and gets worse. I was looking to move because I like colder weather/climate change related reasons and I had one recruiter tell me "You can't possibly ever make that much, that's CEO pay!".

cmrdporcupine 7y ago
Come work at Google Waterloo.
raydev 7y ago
Several Bay Area companies are opening/expanding offices up here, especially in the last year. I've joined one of them and I suggest you start looking around. At least in Toronto.

deepGem 7y ago

I still don't understand the pay rhetoric in Canada. I live in Bangalore, and I make more or less the same pay as in Toronto for nearly 1/5th the cost of living. Why are salaries so low in Canada ? Now at least owing to the US immigration fiasco, more labour should move in and salaries should technically rise - but I don't see that happening. Not sure why. Competitive salaries on par with California or even NYC will have a dramatic impact on the influx of immigrants.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago
Unfortunately top talent that wants a higher salary over all else emigrates to the US. Those of us that remain are in a lower bargaining position. And there's a steady stream of immigrants. Also the quality of the work here is mostly miserable. There's not a lot of interesting stuff. Things are better if you can find something outside of Toronto where the cost of living is ridiculous. One advantage of the Google Waterloo office...
triceratops 7y ago
> I live in Bangalore, and I make more or less the same pay as in Toronto for nearly 1/5th the cost of living. You sound like an outlier mate.

shdh 7y ago

Definitely less talent.