5 ms·

>Shadow is a firm that makes custom software for Democrats and progressives. If I can ask, why the specific nature for their clientele? Isolating your solutio

by whylie 7y ago

>Shadow is a firm that makes custom software for Democrats and progressives. If I can ask, why the specific nature for their clientele? Isolating your solutions to a specific political party seems strange to me especially if the emphasis on making money. If anything, money normally supersedes political leanings at the end of the day which makes the whole fiasco even stranger to me. Wouldn't you want to provide a solution for both parties by default? Not doing so seems nefarious on it's own. It sounds like pairing products with political leanings is not a good business decision? Which may explain where all the 'hate' is coming from - it's just bad business and sows the seeds of doubt in their credibility in the minds of many.

nooron 7y ago
Hey, I'm really glad you asked, and I'm happy to share. The reason that most people start companies in politics is because they have strong political leanings. You do it because you believe strongly in something or someone and want to support it, even if it pays less or sucks. Even if you wanted to cross the aisle, it would be hard. If you work for Democrats, Republicans will not work with you. If you work for Republicans, Democrats will not work with you.
- bluehat 7y ago
  Going to especially second that last bit. Not everybody is expressly data science, but most companies start running into some sort of data at one point or another. Campaigns aren't wrong to be concerned about who has their data. There is good historical reason for them to be skeptical that security on your system will be strong enough to prevent customers from accessing other customer's data. https://time.com/4155185/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-data/ https://time.com/4155185/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-data... Now imagine getting buy-in for using customer data to improve your models. I can't blame campaigns for being paranoid about vendors potentially going across the aisle. NationBuilder is one of the only big names I know that does it. They are in a unique and unenviable position given the death grip NGP VAN has, and they pay a big price for it on nearly every front.
  - nooron 7y ago
    I agree with all this. To your point, NationBuilder has been nearly shut out of the Democratic Party at anything above the local level as a result of serving Trump in 2016.
  - tonicb 7y ago
    Really interesting point here. Although, there is a little more nuance needed and this is one of the big issues plaguing the campaigning software space - not all are created for the same goals and not all offer the same services. If you take your example of NationBuilder, a company I know well as I led their European expansion, it only sold software not data. Unlike most American campaign software, NationBuilder does not sell data as part of their package. NationBuilder does not believe that you can create a sustainable and powerful community by using data that you have purchased, and thus only sells the platform. So yes I agree with you that while campaigns can (and should) be paranoid about who has access to their data, and even how it is being used, this data brokerage model isn't the model that all companies adopt and it's a really important distinction to make. While I am here, I will add the following, tech companies who want to democratise democracy (and I'm not saying that's the mission for everyone) and help lower the barrier to entry, cannot claim to do so if they alone decide who has access to these tools. Crucial decisions, such as which parties have access to the latest technology, should not be in the hands of a few tech titans of Silicon Valley - where the power they already wield is already unmeasurable. All of the above is a fascinating and important debate and also a very American one. Campaigning and political technology is incredibly partisan in America, compared to Europe where what we fear most are monopolies.
    - bluehat 7y ago
      It is possible to run into more than enough trouble with data without being a data broker.
      - tonicb 7y ago
        because you are a non-partisan software? I agree with the 'getting into trouble piece' I think. I don't see how being non-partisan gets you into more trouble or would increase those chances.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  I don't know how strong political beliefs correlate with technical ability, but from my anecdotal evidence, the people I work with are highly competent and not very political. While highly political people I know don't seem to work in tech.
  - peteretep 7y ago
    > While highly political people I know don't seem to work in tech. I mean, we’re doing anecdata here, but that doesn’t match my experience at all
    - Aperocky 7y ago
      Thanks for your observation.
  - madeofpalk 7y ago
    for what it's worth, usually people think they are not very political, but that thought itself is quite political.
    - bjterry 7y ago
      Even if many people think that they "aren't very political" and are incorrect, there are some people that aren't very political and this is justified. For example, if you are a 5 year old and you believe you are not very political, you are probably correct. If you have been living in the woods for the last 30 years, don't know anything about modern politics, and believe that you are not very political, it would be weird for us to say "the thought you are not political is itself quite political" rather than "that sounds like a justified true belief." So assuming it's possible in principle to be "not very political," the real question is how disengaged, uninformed, or lacking in understanding do you have to be for your statement to be true in itself, rather than a "quite political" statement. For myself, I think if someone is disengaged enough that they don't care who will become the next president, and there are no local political issues they will argue with someone about, they are "not very political."
- jancsika 7y ago
  So when Republicans and Democrats walk from the Capitol to their respective fundraising call centers, is your claim that that there is a different software stack in each building to handle the call automation? I have no idea how to find out whether those tech stacks are indeed different. But if someone knows the answer I'd definitely find it instructive.
  - ncallaway 7y ago
    Probably. Whenever I've done calling or canvassing for progressive causes or democratic candidates we've used some version of NGP VAN (https://www.ngpvan.com/about https://www.ngpvan.com/about). I wouldn't be surprised if there are some cross-party solutions (especially the closer you get to core infrastructure—I'm sure both parties use AWS).
    - nooron 7y ago
      You are right, in the deepest recesses there is crossover. Stripe, media companies/FB for ad buys, Microsoft Azure, AWS. It is very rare anywhere else.
      - tonicb 7y ago
        I would be curious to know if you would expect these companies to be partisan too? And if not, why?
  - relevant_thing 7y ago
    AFAIK the fundraising done by actual elected officials is not highly automated, but tools for phone banking, canvassing, and that sort of organizing are definitely partisan (see for example https://act.ngpvan.com/paid-phones https://act.ngpvan.com/paid-phones on the Dem side).
- listenallyall 7y ago
  >> You do it because you believe strongly in something or someone and want to support it Lol, this explanation... This same political party will sue you into oblivion if the thing you "believe strongly in" happens to be a religion, and thus you are uncomfortable, say, baking a cake for a gay wedding. Yes, under the law, sexual orientation is a protected class, while political leanings are not. But claiming a right to refuse to serve unwanted clients, while disallowing someone else's company to do the same, just reeks of massive hypocrisy. [edited to remove objectionable (?) words]

by whylie 7y ago

nooron 7y ago

Hey, I'm really glad you asked, and I'm happy to share. The reason that most people start companies in politics is because they have strong political leanings. You do it because you believe strongly in something or someone and want to support it, even if it pays less or sucks. Even if you wanted to cross the aisle, it would be hard. If you work for Democrats, Republicans will not work with you. If you work for Republicans, Democrats will not work with you.

bluehat 7y ago
Going to especially second that last bit. Not everybody is expressly data science, but most companies start running into some sort of data at one point or another. Campaigns aren't wrong to be concerned about who has their data. There is good historical reason for them to be skeptical that security on your system will be strong enough to prevent customers from accessing other customer's data. https://time.com/4155185/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-data/ https://time.com/4155185/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-data... Now imagine getting buy-in for using customer data to improve your models. I can't blame campaigns for being paranoid about vendors potentially going across the aisle. NationBuilder is one of the only big names I know that does it. They are in a unique and unenviable position given the death grip NGP VAN has, and they pay a big price for it on nearly every front.
- nooron 7y ago
  I agree with all this. To your point, NationBuilder has been nearly shut out of the Democratic Party at anything above the local level as a result of serving Trump in 2016.
- tonicb 7y ago
  Really interesting point here. Although, there is a little more nuance needed and this is one of the big issues plaguing the campaigning software space - not all are created for the same goals and not all offer the same services. If you take your example of NationBuilder, a company I know well as I led their European expansion, it only sold software not data. Unlike most American campaign software, NationBuilder does not sell data as part of their package. NationBuilder does not believe that you can create a sustainable and powerful community by using data that you have purchased, and thus only sells the platform. So yes I agree with you that while campaigns can (and should) be paranoid about who has access to their data, and even how it is being used, this data brokerage model isn't the model that all companies adopt and it's a really important distinction to make. While I am here, I will add the following, tech companies who want to democratise democracy (and I'm not saying that's the mission for everyone) and help lower the barrier to entry, cannot claim to do so if they alone decide who has access to these tools. Crucial decisions, such as which parties have access to the latest technology, should not be in the hands of a few tech titans of Silicon Valley - where the power they already wield is already unmeasurable. All of the above is a fascinating and important debate and also a very American one. Campaigning and political technology is incredibly partisan in America, compared to Europe where what we fear most are monopolies.
  - bluehat 7y ago
    It is possible to run into more than enough trouble with data without being a data broker.
    - tonicb 7y ago
      because you are a non-partisan software? I agree with the 'getting into trouble piece' I think. I don't see how being non-partisan gets you into more trouble or would increase those chances.
Aperocky 7y ago
I don't know how strong political beliefs correlate with technical ability, but from my anecdotal evidence, the people I work with are highly competent and not very political. While highly political people I know don't seem to work in tech.
- peteretep 7y ago
  > While highly political people I know don't seem to work in tech. I mean, we’re doing anecdata here, but that doesn’t match my experience at all
  - Aperocky 7y ago
    Thanks for your observation.
- madeofpalk 7y ago
  for what it's worth, usually people think they are not very political, but that thought itself is quite political.
  - bjterry 7y ago
    Even if many people think that they "aren't very political" and are incorrect, there are some people that aren't very political and this is justified. For example, if you are a 5 year old and you believe you are not very political, you are probably correct. If you have been living in the woods for the last 30 years, don't know anything about modern politics, and believe that you are not very political, it would be weird for us to say "the thought you are not political is itself quite political" rather than "that sounds like a justified true belief." So assuming it's possible in principle to be "not very political," the real question is how disengaged, uninformed, or lacking in understanding do you have to be for your statement to be true in itself, rather than a "quite political" statement. For myself, I think if someone is disengaged enough that they don't care who will become the next president, and there are no local political issues they will argue with someone about, they are "not very political."
jancsika 7y ago
So when Republicans and Democrats walk from the Capitol to their respective fundraising call centers, is your claim that that there is a different software stack in each building to handle the call automation? I have no idea how to find out whether those tech stacks are indeed different. But if someone knows the answer I'd definitely find it instructive.
- ncallaway 7y ago
  Probably. Whenever I've done calling or canvassing for progressive causes or democratic candidates we've used some version of NGP VAN (https://www.ngpvan.com/about https://www.ngpvan.com/about). I wouldn't be surprised if there are some cross-party solutions (especially the closer you get to core infrastructure—I'm sure both parties use AWS).
  - nooron 7y ago
    You are right, in the deepest recesses there is crossover. Stripe, media companies/FB for ad buys, Microsoft Azure, AWS. It is very rare anywhere else.
    - tonicb 7y ago
      I would be curious to know if you would expect these companies to be partisan too? And if not, why?
- relevant_thing 7y ago
  AFAIK the fundraising done by actual elected officials is not highly automated, but tools for phone banking, canvassing, and that sort of organizing are definitely partisan (see for example https://act.ngpvan.com/paid-phones https://act.ngpvan.com/paid-phones on the Dem side).
listenallyall 7y ago
>> You do it because you believe strongly in something or someone and want to support it Lol, this explanation... This same political party will sue you into oblivion if the thing you "believe strongly in" happens to be a religion, and thus you are uncomfortable, say, baking a cake for a gay wedding. Yes, under the law, sexual orientation is a protected class, while political leanings are not. But claiming a right to refuse to serve unwanted clients, while disallowing someone else's company to do the same, just reeks of massive hypocrisy. [edited to remove objectionable (?) words]