7 ms·

I think people here who look at Finland and Europe in general and see these social programs to help you get ahead are rather blinded by the reality that they o

I think people here who look at Finland and Europe in general and see these social programs to help you get ahead are rather blinded by the reality that they only exist for Europeans. As a US citizen who lived in Europe for 5 years, I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. It makes no difference if you have a great idea, or even your own funding, you won't get the legal permission to found a business in Europe unless you basically got a European to found it for you and then you can be their employee. This is basically why the tech scene in Europe is more smoke than heat, it only allows the local talent to be successful, which we all know leads to subpar results. It is also why you really don't see any actual innovation come out of Europe.

cromulent 7y ago
It's not super hard to do in Finland actually, especially if you engage a local to help you. If you want to, you can become an e-resident and run a business in Estonia completely online. https://e-resident.gov.ee https://e-resident.gov.ee
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  Estonian e-residency doesn’t magically make you a tax resident of there and absolve you of your tax obligations to your country of residence. Some countries still require you to pay local tax on any income from foreign companies as long as you’re considered a tax resident.
  - cromulent 7y ago
    Yeah, there are definitely shortcomings to that approach. I was just trying to address the: "I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European... you won't get the legal permission to found a business in Europe unless you basically got a European to found it for you" comment as I have not found that to be true.
e4325f 7y ago
Fintech in the UK looks pretty innovative to me, banking in the US is embarrassing.
- tlarkworthy 7y ago
  everything pales in comparison to Vanguard and its innovative ownership and strategy.
davnicwil 7y ago
Just as a couple of counter examples, in case you weren't aware of them - Spain has an entrepeneurship visa, that any founder from anywhere can apply for. To apply I think you need to produce a credible business plan which shows it'll employ a certain number of citizens (I don't know if EU or Spanish specifically) eventually. - France similarly has an entrepeneurship visa for founders from anywhere. I believe one of the requirements is to raise a certain amount of seed from specifically French accredited investors. But, while I think it's better than you're implying, I definitely agree with your general thrust that visas need to adapt to embrace the growing popularity of people moving country not necessarily for employment, but to create new companies, jobs and growth. It's unnecessarily cumbersome to do that basically everywhere (particularly in strong economies) right now, not just the EU, and that's a net loss for the citizens of the respective countries.
- unclesams-uncle 7y ago
  I've been a US expat in Europe for almost 20 years now. I spent a lot of time in Belgium (to the point I became a citizen) and am now in Barcelona starting a FinTech. Europe lacks both a risk-taking mentality and the framework to foster real entrepreneurship. Spain was able to become much more competitive thanks to the austerity they were forced to go through post-crisis, but there are still way more bureaucratic hoops I have to jump through compared to what I would need to do to start my business in the US. Incorporating an LLC alone (the equivalent of a c-corp is rarely used by startups over here) requires 3,000 EUR in the bank plus about the same amount in legal fees. In many other countries, it's a five-figure deposit to get a company set up. As the director of the company, I'm required to register as a freelancer so that I "can't fire myself and claim unemployment" which is ridiculous within itself. Stock options don't really exist in Europe either, meaning I can't really issue them to attract talent. In otherwords, I need to access more capital at an earlier stage to grow my business in comparison to US competitors. Finally, there is no such thing as chapter 11 bankruptcy within the EU, which limits risk-taking by businesses. As for France, it's great that they have a visa. However, the legal and labor system is similar to Belgium, making founding and scaling a company a royal PITA. Belgium is a great place to work in a giant company (usually a bank or an insurer) but an absolutely lousy place to start a business, visa program or otherwise. Europe needs to get this figured out. The continent has too much talent and too large of a market to not be able to be a global innovation force.
opportune 7y ago
I’m pretty sure a lot of EU countries make it easy to get temporary resident status if you start a business though? And some require <$100k investment For the ones I looked into becoming a permanent resident after X years was also not that challenging and IIRC (might be wrong) that gives you basically full work permissions for all EU countries
Mediterraneo10 7y ago
Besides whatever other EU countries people here might mention, I know that Romania offers residency permits to US citizens who want to start a business, and the fees and taxes are fairly low. (If I understand correctly, you have to renew the residency annually, but you can still transition to permanent residency after five years like any other temporary residency class.) If you have a great idea, then you can start in Romania and enjoy the same access to the single market as anywhere else in the EU.
throwaway13337 7y ago
I am also an American who lived in Finland, Austria, and Denmark for, cumulatively, over 5 years. I now own and run a small but successful bootstrapped American SaaS. What bothered me is that in all the above countries, they try to encourage entrepreneurship through rigged government programs. These programs offer grants and other benefits to 'the right kind of startups' - usually ones that are fashionable because the subject is currently hyped - ai, climate change, etc. Bureaucrats who know nothing about business pick whom to award grants through bullshit means. I imagine there's a lot of 'who you know' going on, too. That wouldn't be so bad but, because these countries have such high taxes and other restrictions, the only benefit to starting a business there are these programs. With these countries, it's not important that your startup is actually making money as long as you can brag about how you're changing the world at parties. Finland's startup culture is especially bad in this department. It was disappointing as Finland is otherwise awesome.
- yoran 7y ago
  I agree. I think that a problem in the EU is the wide abundance of government subsidies. The intentions are good but in fact it messes up the mechanism of natural selection in startups. Companies that haven't managed to raise money from private investors because they shouldn't really be funded (for various reasons e.g. their business model isn't viable, not a good team, or have exterior obligations and aren't fully committed,...) manage to keep their business running for 2-3 years because they're being held in life support through a government subdidy. In the end, they still have to shut down when the funding runs out, resulting in a net loss for everyone. Don't get me wrong, subsidies are generally still important, for instance for initiatives that have a positive societal impact but that are hard to monetize. It's crucial that these organizations can still exist (not everything needs to be able to generate shareholder value to have a right to exist) and if subsidies allow them to do their thing, then that's great. But for the private sector, I think that there are other mechanisms that achieve the same goal but that maintain the much-needed Darwinism of startups, e.g. by offering tax breaks for angel investors.
  - fsloth 7y ago
    "Companies that haven't managed to raise money from private investors" This comment is a bit off topic for Finland. It does not have large capital markets looking for a good investment. It's a capital poor country. Which is a good thing to know, if you come here looking for startup funding. The reason you don't find strong local seed funding is not because government blocks them. The reason is there is no capital for seeding, so to speak.
CalRobert 7y ago
If you can employ yourself, there's the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, or DAFT. https://shawnindutch.com/ https://shawnindutch.com/ discusses it. The requirements are pretty basic - "have something resembling a business and €4500" if I remember right. I'm an American in Europe (Ireland myself) and once I got stamp 4 (takes two years) I become every bit as eligible for state grants and supports as a citizen.
growlist 7y ago
> It is also why you really don't see any actual innovation come out of Europe. ...as opposed to I suppose the amazing 'innovations' coming out of the US, such as shiny overpriced phones with overpriced proprietary cables, a taxi service with an app, some media-streaming services grown large based on their media content rather than innovation per se, and a plethora of disguised surveillance programmes? Wow thanks America, life is so much better in this emerging dystopia! Amazon I'll grant you does deserve praise for amazing logistics.
- euro_expat 7y ago
  Can you name a single thing that you would consider innovative from Europe? I'm serious, I just can't think of anything. These are good people for making a slightly better Mercedes than last year's model, but they won't be cooking up the next iPhone anytime soon. The system there does not reward risk takers, the smart move is incremental updates to well established existing products.
  - lawlorino 7y ago
    > but they won't be cooking up the next iPhone anytime soon. It's funny you say this since Nokia, who are a Finnish company, were the globally dominant mobile phone company for years before the iPhone due to their innovations e.g. doing camera phones well. The 3310 is one of the best selling mobile phones ever. Yes they ultimately fell from that position, but to suggest Europe is some desert of mediocrity seems foolish.
    - euro_expat 7y ago
      I think you misunderstand. I mean an innovation on par with the iPhone, where it basically changed how people live their lives. I'm quite sure Europeans can make a phone, the problem is they can't hit an innovative home run to save their lives.
      - ska 7y ago
        Your hyperbole is burying any realistic point you are trying to make, I think. WWW had far bigger impact that iPhone, and is european innovation. For that matter, the entire system of democratic capitalism and relatively free markets you are espousing was invented there. Fair to argue who's done the best job of "perfecting" it, but it's European ideas originally :) I think it is very interesting to compare entrepreneurial approaches and success rates (to the degree it's meaningful) across jurisdictions, for what it's worth. But "Europe can't do this at all" is a silly line to draw.
jdblair 7y ago
That's not true. American entrepreneurs can acquire Dutch residency for the purpose of starting a business in Netherlands. Access to Dutch social services is a different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT (edit, I see now that someone else has pointed out the same thing)
wenc 7y ago
> It is also why you really don't see any actual innovation come out of Europe. There's actually quite a lot of incremental innovation happening in Europe, but they're in non-consumer spaces so they're less visible. But you're right, a lot of European innovation is in the area of refining and improving proven ideas. The pool of technical expertise in Europe is vast and strong so it makes sense to leverage the competitive advantage there. The U.S. on the other hand is much stronger at defying norms and inventing completely new categories. U.S. companies know this, so the joke in industry is: invent in the U.S., perfect in Europe (setup R&D labs etc.), and manufacture in China.
Hamuko 7y ago
>If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. I was under the impression you can start a business as long as you have a residence permit. https://www.suomi.fi/company/starting-a-business/foreign-entrepreneurs/guide/licenses-and-notifications-required-of-foreign-entrepreneurs/permits-and-notifications-for-non-eu-citizens https://www.suomi.fi/company/starting-a-business/foreign-ent...
- euro_expat 7y ago
  I have no idea about Finland, but in Europe in general, you can't open a business cleanly without a permanent residence permit, which takes usually 5+ years to get. In Denmark where I've lived, it's about 9+ years last I checked, but Danes are super xenophobic, so they don't want you there period. The link you sent describes being forced to be approved by some board they have, so it also sounds like Finland has hurdles too. In my experience, Europe is happy to skip out on the next Google if it means only the local get to play and win.
  - iagovar 7y ago
    Spain and France have entrepreneur visas.
    - euro_expat 7y ago
      So if I am rich or can convince the people that I have the right sort of idea, I can try there? I don't think that's quite the same thing as letting a person succeed on their own merit in the free market. It sounds like much the same as what I saw elsewhere in Europe - the state or a group of rich people picking winners, who more often than not don't win.
      - ivanhoe 7y ago
        But US has far stricter visa system than EU?
      - iagovar 7y ago
nabla9 7y ago
You need permanent residence permit, that's all. The need for a permit is not dependent on nationality but instead your place of residence. https://www.infofinland.fi/en/moving-to-finland/non-eu-citizens/becoming-an-entrepreneur-in-finland https://www.infofinland.fi/en/moving-to-finland/non-eu-citiz...
planetzero 7y ago
Not only this, but all of the taxes and regulations will only impede your growing business. Yes, you might be able take a risk because your healthcare is covered in the beginning..but once you want to grow to an actual thriving company, it becomes very difficult. This is why almost all of the moderately large companies in places like Finland, Denmark, or Sweden are incorporated elsewhere.
teddyuk 7y ago
This isn’t the case in the uk, anyone can start a business
cakeplease 7y ago
I am confused by this comment. Finland and other EU countries offer startup visas and the requirements for them require minimal capital. Recruiting outside of EU is also relatively easy since there is no artificial cap and no significant salary requirements like with H1B. It's a cakewalk compared to the monsterity that is the US visa system.
berdario 7y ago
I feel that a lot of comments from US folks here are a bit hypocritical: > It makes no difference if you have a great idea, or even your own funding Most european countries (most countries in the world, actually) have some kind of entrepreneur/investor visa, but most importantly: You might be able to start a company in the US while officially traveling for tourism/business, but that's actually a flaw and not an advantage: If you're lucky you might be able to regularise your position, but you might just get denied entry back in the US the next time that you'll travel. Good luck running your business in the US, then. If you want to move to the US and start your own business, something like the O-1 visa won't cut it, since unlike any European work visa, it won't give you a path to permanent residency. You want the EB-1, EB-2 or EB-5 visas. The first 2 are much harder to obtain (even if you got a O-1), and the EB-5 is not open to all nationalities. Finally, you'll need way more than 100.000$ (probably at least 500.000$) to be able to be approved for an EB-5. US requirements are steep, and even if you have a great idea and funding that's probably not going to be enough. Getting to work for an established local company, owned by natives, is the most straightforward way to get a work visa. That's true in the US just like in most other rich countries (but obviously it requires finding a company willing to sponsor you, like a FAAMG, but those have a famously selective interview process. And on top of that you have H1-B caps.)
olegp 7y ago
That's certainly not the case in Finland, where you just need to have one Finnish resident on your board in order to incorporate. There's also the startup permit (https://www.businessfinland.fi/en/do-business-with-finland/startup-in-finland/startup-permit/ https://www.businessfinland.fi/en/do-business-with-finland/s...), which lets you get that residence permit in the first place. Coming back to the topic of the original post though, in order to work as a freelancer in Finland, you do not need to incorporate to begin with and you certainly don't need to set up an LTD right away as the guide suggests. In fact doing so, can be counter productive, since while setting up a company is easy, shutting own down and becoming an employee again is not simple around here. I'm running Toughbyte (https://www.toughbyte.com/ https://www.toughbyte.com/) and we act as one of the brokers for freelancers in Finland such as the ones mentioned in the guide. What I've been recommending to those wanting to go freelance is that they first try to become employed by a broker on a fixed term contract or work through a cooperative (osuuskunta in Finnish). After that, they can set up an individual entrepreneurship (toiminimi) and only once they've had consistent revenue for about a year, consider setting up an LTD (OY). The limited liability that an LTD provides isn't strictly speaking necessary when working as part of a team on a times and materials basis.
fit2rule 7y ago
>only exist for Europeans. Well, actually, no. They're reciprocal, actually. US citizens in Austria are generally treated similar to the way Austrian citizens would be treated in the US. Reciprocation is a basis of international relations. Also, its entirely possible to get residency in "Europe", if you understand that "Europe" is not just London or Paris. (Disclaimer: non-european citizen with 20 years residency and legal work/founder status, lived)

cromulent 7y ago

It's not super hard to do in Finland actually, especially if you engage a local to help you. If you want to, you can become an e-resident and run a business in Estonia completely online. https://e-resident.gov.ee https://e-resident.gov.ee

Nextgrid 7y ago
Estonian e-residency doesn’t magically make you a tax resident of there and absolve you of your tax obligations to your country of residence. Some countries still require you to pay local tax on any income from foreign companies as long as you’re considered a tax resident.
- cromulent 7y ago
  Yeah, there are definitely shortcomings to that approach. I was just trying to address the: "I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European... you won't get the legal permission to found a business in Europe unless you basically got a European to found it for you" comment as I have not found that to be true.

e4325f 7y ago

Fintech in the UK looks pretty innovative to me, banking in the US is embarrassing.

tlarkworthy 7y ago
everything pales in comparison to Vanguard and its innovative ownership and strategy.

davnicwil 7y ago

Just as a couple of counter examples, in case you weren't aware of them - Spain has an entrepeneurship visa, that any founder from anywhere can apply for. To apply I think you need to produce a credible business plan which shows it'll employ a certain number of citizens (I don't know if EU or Spanish specifically) eventually. - France similarly has an entrepeneurship visa for founders from anywhere. I believe one of the requirements is to raise a certain amount of seed from specifically French accredited investors. But, while I think it's better than you're implying, I definitely agree with your general thrust that visas need to adapt to embrace the growing popularity of people moving country not necessarily for employment, but to create new companies, jobs and growth. It's unnecessarily cumbersome to do that basically everywhere (particularly in strong economies) right now, not just the EU, and that's a net loss for the citizens of the respective countries.

unclesams-uncle 7y ago
I've been a US expat in Europe for almost 20 years now. I spent a lot of time in Belgium (to the point I became a citizen) and am now in Barcelona starting a FinTech. Europe lacks both a risk-taking mentality and the framework to foster real entrepreneurship. Spain was able to become much more competitive thanks to the austerity they were forced to go through post-crisis, but there are still way more bureaucratic hoops I have to jump through compared to what I would need to do to start my business in the US. Incorporating an LLC alone (the equivalent of a c-corp is rarely used by startups over here) requires 3,000 EUR in the bank plus about the same amount in legal fees. In many other countries, it's a five-figure deposit to get a company set up. As the director of the company, I'm required to register as a freelancer so that I "can't fire myself and claim unemployment" which is ridiculous within itself. Stock options don't really exist in Europe either, meaning I can't really issue them to attract talent. In otherwords, I need to access more capital at an earlier stage to grow my business in comparison to US competitors. Finally, there is no such thing as chapter 11 bankruptcy within the EU, which limits risk-taking by businesses. As for France, it's great that they have a visa. However, the legal and labor system is similar to Belgium, making founding and scaling a company a royal PITA. Belgium is a great place to work in a giant company (usually a bank or an insurer) but an absolutely lousy place to start a business, visa program or otherwise. Europe needs to get this figured out. The continent has too much talent and too large of a market to not be able to be a global innovation force.

opportune 7y ago

I’m pretty sure a lot of EU countries make it easy to get temporary resident status if you start a business though? And some require <$100k investment For the ones I looked into becoming a permanent resident after X years was also not that challenging and IIRC (might be wrong) that gives you basically full work permissions for all EU countries

Mediterraneo10 7y ago

Besides whatever other EU countries people here might mention, I know that Romania offers residency permits to US citizens who want to start a business, and the fees and taxes are fairly low. (If I understand correctly, you have to renew the residency annually, but you can still transition to permanent residency after five years like any other temporary residency class.) If you have a great idea, then you can start in Romania and enjoy the same access to the single market as anywhere else in the EU.

throwaway13337 7y ago

I am also an American who lived in Finland, Austria, and Denmark for, cumulatively, over 5 years. I now own and run a small but successful bootstrapped American SaaS. What bothered me is that in all the above countries, they try to encourage entrepreneurship through rigged government programs. These programs offer grants and other benefits to 'the right kind of startups' - usually ones that are fashionable because the subject is currently hyped - ai, climate change, etc. Bureaucrats who know nothing about business pick whom to award grants through bullshit means. I imagine there's a lot of 'who you know' going on, too. That wouldn't be so bad but, because these countries have such high taxes and other restrictions, the only benefit to starting a business there are these programs. With these countries, it's not important that your startup is actually making money as long as you can brag about how you're changing the world at parties. Finland's startup culture is especially bad in this department. It was disappointing as Finland is otherwise awesome.

yoran 7y ago
I agree. I think that a problem in the EU is the wide abundance of government subsidies. The intentions are good but in fact it messes up the mechanism of natural selection in startups. Companies that haven't managed to raise money from private investors because they shouldn't really be funded (for various reasons e.g. their business model isn't viable, not a good team, or have exterior obligations and aren't fully committed,...) manage to keep their business running for 2-3 years because they're being held in life support through a government subdidy. In the end, they still have to shut down when the funding runs out, resulting in a net loss for everyone. Don't get me wrong, subsidies are generally still important, for instance for initiatives that have a positive societal impact but that are hard to monetize. It's crucial that these organizations can still exist (not everything needs to be able to generate shareholder value to have a right to exist) and if subsidies allow them to do their thing, then that's great. But for the private sector, I think that there are other mechanisms that achieve the same goal but that maintain the much-needed Darwinism of startups, e.g. by offering tax breaks for angel investors.
- fsloth 7y ago
  "Companies that haven't managed to raise money from private investors" This comment is a bit off topic for Finland. It does not have large capital markets looking for a good investment. It's a capital poor country. Which is a good thing to know, if you come here looking for startup funding. The reason you don't find strong local seed funding is not because government blocks them. The reason is there is no capital for seeding, so to speak.

CalRobert 7y ago

If you can employ yourself, there's the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, or DAFT. https://shawnindutch.com/ https://shawnindutch.com/ discusses it. The requirements are pretty basic - "have something resembling a business and €4500" if I remember right. I'm an American in Europe (Ireland myself) and once I got stamp 4 (takes two years) I become every bit as eligible for state grants and supports as a citizen.

growlist 7y ago

> It is also why you really don't see any actual innovation come out of Europe. ...as opposed to I suppose the amazing 'innovations' coming out of the US, such as shiny overpriced phones with overpriced proprietary cables, a taxi service with an app, some media-streaming services grown large based on their media content rather than innovation per se, and a plethora of disguised surveillance programmes? Wow thanks America, life is so much better in this emerging dystopia! Amazon I'll grant you does deserve praise for amazing logistics.

euro_expat 7y ago
Can you name a single thing that you would consider innovative from Europe? I'm serious, I just can't think of anything. These are good people for making a slightly better Mercedes than last year's model, but they won't be cooking up the next iPhone anytime soon. The system there does not reward risk takers, the smart move is incremental updates to well established existing products.
- lawlorino 7y ago
  > but they won't be cooking up the next iPhone anytime soon. It's funny you say this since Nokia, who are a Finnish company, were the globally dominant mobile phone company for years before the iPhone due to their innovations e.g. doing camera phones well. The 3310 is one of the best selling mobile phones ever. Yes they ultimately fell from that position, but to suggest Europe is some desert of mediocrity seems foolish.
  - euro_expat 7y ago
    I think you misunderstand. I mean an innovation on par with the iPhone, where it basically changed how people live their lives. I'm quite sure Europeans can make a phone, the problem is they can't hit an innovative home run to save their lives.
    - ska 7y ago
      Your hyperbole is burying any realistic point you are trying to make, I think. WWW had far bigger impact that iPhone, and is european innovation. For that matter, the entire system of democratic capitalism and relatively free markets you are espousing was invented there. Fair to argue who's done the best job of "perfecting" it, but it's European ideas originally :) I think it is very interesting to compare entrepreneurial approaches and success rates (to the degree it's meaningful) across jurisdictions, for what it's worth. But "Europe can't do this at all" is a silly line to draw.

jdblair 7y ago

That's not true. American entrepreneurs can acquire Dutch residency for the purpose of starting a business in Netherlands. Access to Dutch social services is a different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT (edit, I see now that someone else has pointed out the same thing)

wenc 7y ago

> It is also why you really don't see any actual innovation come out of Europe. There's actually quite a lot of incremental innovation happening in Europe, but they're in non-consumer spaces so they're less visible. But you're right, a lot of European innovation is in the area of refining and improving proven ideas. The pool of technical expertise in Europe is vast and strong so it makes sense to leverage the competitive advantage there. The U.S. on the other hand is much stronger at defying norms and inventing completely new categories. U.S. companies know this, so the joke in industry is: invent in the U.S., perfect in Europe (setup R&D labs etc.), and manufacture in China.

Hamuko 7y ago

>If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. I was under the impression you can start a business as long as you have a residence permit. https://www.suomi.fi/company/starting-a-business/foreign-entrepreneurs/guide/licenses-and-notifications-required-of-foreign-entrepreneurs/permits-and-notifications-for-non-eu-citizens https://www.suomi.fi/company/starting-a-business/foreign-ent...

euro_expat 7y ago
I have no idea about Finland, but in Europe in general, you can't open a business cleanly without a permanent residence permit, which takes usually 5+ years to get. In Denmark where I've lived, it's about 9+ years last I checked, but Danes are super xenophobic, so they don't want you there period. The link you sent describes being forced to be approved by some board they have, so it also sounds like Finland has hurdles too. In my experience, Europe is happy to skip out on the next Google if it means only the local get to play and win.
- iagovar 7y ago
  Spain and France have entrepreneur visas.
  - euro_expat 7y ago
    So if I am rich or can convince the people that I have the right sort of idea, I can try there? I don't think that's quite the same thing as letting a person succeed on their own merit in the free market. It sounds like much the same as what I saw elsewhere in Europe - the state or a group of rich people picking winners, who more often than not don't win.
    - ivanhoe 7y ago
      But US has far stricter visa system than EU?
    - iagovar 7y ago

nabla9 7y ago

You need permanent residence permit, that's all. The need for a permit is not dependent on nationality but instead your place of residence. https://www.infofinland.fi/en/moving-to-finland/non-eu-citizens/becoming-an-entrepreneur-in-finland https://www.infofinland.fi/en/moving-to-finland/non-eu-citiz...

planetzero 7y ago

Not only this, but all of the taxes and regulations will only impede your growing business. Yes, you might be able take a risk because your healthcare is covered in the beginning..but once you want to grow to an actual thriving company, it becomes very difficult. This is why almost all of the moderately large companies in places like Finland, Denmark, or Sweden are incorporated elsewhere.

teddyuk 7y ago

This isn’t the case in the uk, anyone can start a business

cakeplease 7y ago

I am confused by this comment. Finland and other EU countries offer startup visas and the requirements for them require minimal capital. Recruiting outside of EU is also relatively easy since there is no artificial cap and no significant salary requirements like with H1B. It's a cakewalk compared to the monsterity that is the US visa system.

berdario 7y ago

I feel that a lot of comments from US folks here are a bit hypocritical: > It makes no difference if you have a great idea, or even your own funding Most european countries (most countries in the world, actually) have some kind of entrepreneur/investor visa, but most importantly: You might be able to start a company in the US while officially traveling for tourism/business, but that's actually a flaw and not an advantage: If you're lucky you might be able to regularise your position, but you might just get denied entry back in the US the next time that you'll travel. Good luck running your business in the US, then. If you want to move to the US and start your own business, something like the O-1 visa won't cut it, since unlike any European work visa, it won't give you a path to permanent residency. You want the EB-1, EB-2 or EB-5 visas. The first 2 are much harder to obtain (even if you got a O-1), and the EB-5 is not open to all nationalities. Finally, you'll need way more than 100.000$ (probably at least 500.000$) to be able to be approved for an EB-5. US requirements are steep, and even if you have a great idea and funding that's probably not going to be enough. Getting to work for an established local company, owned by natives, is the most straightforward way to get a work visa. That's true in the US just like in most other rich countries (but obviously it requires finding a company willing to sponsor you, like a FAAMG, but those have a famously selective interview process. And on top of that you have H1-B caps.)

olegp 7y ago

That's certainly not the case in Finland, where you just need to have one Finnish resident on your board in order to incorporate. There's also the startup permit (https://www.businessfinland.fi/en/do-business-with-finland/startup-in-finland/startup-permit/ https://www.businessfinland.fi/en/do-business-with-finland/s...), which lets you get that residence permit in the first place. Coming back to the topic of the original post though, in order to work as a freelancer in Finland, you do not need to incorporate to begin with and you certainly don't need to set up an LTD right away as the guide suggests. In fact doing so, can be counter productive, since while setting up a company is easy, shutting own down and becoming an employee again is not simple around here. I'm running Toughbyte (https://www.toughbyte.com/ https://www.toughbyte.com/) and we act as one of the brokers for freelancers in Finland such as the ones mentioned in the guide. What I've been recommending to those wanting to go freelance is that they first try to become employed by a broker on a fixed term contract or work through a cooperative (osuuskunta in Finnish). After that, they can set up an individual entrepreneurship (toiminimi) and only once they've had consistent revenue for about a year, consider setting up an LTD (OY). The limited liability that an LTD provides isn't strictly speaking necessary when working as part of a team on a times and materials basis.

fit2rule 7y ago

>only exist for Europeans. Well, actually, no. They're reciprocal, actually. US citizens in Austria are generally treated similar to the way Austrian citizens would be treated in the US. Reciprocation is a basis of international relations. Also, its entirely possible to get residency in "Europe", if you understand that "Europe" is not just London or Paris. (Disclaimer: non-european citizen with 20 years residency and legal work/founder status, lived)