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Tried reading through this but without context it’s very unclear what has happened. Can someone familiar with Rust and it’s communities explain from a high lev

Tried reading through this but without context it’s very unclear what has happened. Can someone familiar with Rust and it’s communities explain from a high level what all this is about?

tomashubelbauer 7y ago
Discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22073908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22073908
cosmic_quanta 7y ago
You can take a look at the actix-web repo, which has been wiped. A message has been added: https://github.com/actix/actix-web/ https://github.com/actix/actix-web/
- chapium 7y ago
  Repo wiped after receiving criticism. I think I'm beginning to see another side to the story other than reddit being a swarm of jerks.
  - falcolas 7y ago
    I'm not sure you can consider "It’s extra nasty this time. Some people go far, far, far over the line." to just be criticism. What does it say that I wouldn't be surprised one iota if "far, far, far over the line" included death threats? Nobody should be expected to continue to contribute in a community with that kind of vitriol pointed their way. EDIT: Even if all "far, far, far over the line" means is personal attacks and not death threats, that is still not simply criticism, and it's still far beyond what someone should be expected to endure in the name of "open source".
  - liopleurodon 7y ago
    My thought exactly. While the reddit swarm was probably harsh, it sounds like it was actually a shit project and it's probably good that it's dead
    - munmaek 7y ago
      Actix was not at all "shit". People just took some issues with a few usages of unsafe and how the author responded to issues/PRs. I've been using actix for about a year now, and was excited for the 0.2.0 updates. That said, pulling the code entirely and deleting issues was a rather immature response. As a rust user I just don't know what another good alternative is. Warp, maybe? I'm debating about just writing http stuff in Golang due to its robust standard library instead of picking among several fledgling 3rd party http libraries.
- zelly 7y ago
  I'm glad git is decentralized.
  - KajMagnus 7y ago
    And you find it here: https://github.com/fafhrd91/actix-web https://github.com/fafhrd91/actix-web (the author moved it to his personal repo) See this comment at GitHub: https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/5#issuecomment-575740775 https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/5#issuecomment-575... — it also links to a mirror.
sampo 7y ago
Background: Actix-web is a small, fast web framework written in Rust. Then just read the second last paragraph: > This means, on some level, this situation is over: there will not be a fourth huge actix-web drama. But it’s really left a bad taste in my mouth. It’s unfortunate that a well-known project had soundness issues. It’s unfortunate that the maintainer wasn’t receptive to fixing them. At the same time, I’ve been there: being a maintainer is tough. It’s also unfortunate that there’s this style of response, and kind, and volume. It is true that the situation was dangerous. But did it have to be handled this way? You have to understand a lot of nuance here to even know the main points of the story. One version of this story that will certainly be told is “The Rust community says they’re nice but they will harass you if you use unsafe wrong.” Is that what we want? I, for one, do not. If you’re a part of Rust, you gotta ask yourself: are you happy with this outcome? How did your actions (or lack thereof) contribute to it? Could you have done something better?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jerf 7y ago
The really short answer seems to be: actix was a Rust web framework. It did some things internally that some people didn't like. The Internet echo chamber picked that up and amplified it to a volume the maintainer couldn't justify working through. The Internet echo chamber is now going to pick this up and amplify it to a volume that probably isn't justified either. I think this is another story about the destructive power of the internet echo chamber, where the asymmetry of one person vs. a mob of people who are in reality probably not all that engaged with the problem but nevertheless have enough engagement to send a nastygram or two creates a distributed denial of decorum attack that no single human being should be expected to deal with "nicely". Our ancient instinctive tribal signals of whether or not you are approved by the tribe, tuned for tribes of 150 people or so, receive a message that 15,000% of the tribe thinks you are a bad person, and our natural human response to that is a lot of stress at best (our ancient instincts tell us that eviction from the tribe is a bad thing, even though in practical terms eviction from this particular tribe won't be much of a problem at all in the modern world). (I phrase it this way because I think this is, well, not strictly speaking independent of the question of whether or not the maintainer was guilty or innocent of any particular thing, but because the story is the wild disproportionality of the response you can get on the Internet regardless.)
- bionicbits 7y ago
  Good explanation. One could argue that you see this playing out in Politics and News Media.
- patrickmay 7y ago
  "Denial of decorum attack" is a great description that deserves broader visibility. It's also a pithy summary of Twitter.
- jlokier 7y ago
  That is actually an awesome explanation. And absolutely correct in my view. I have been on the receiving end. I have friends who have been on the receiving end. It really is overwhelming to receive that 15,000% signal, nudged along by the dynamics of the rest of the tribe. I really like that you found a way to cover this aspect.
bjornlouser 7y ago
The Rust community is filled with Don Quixotes who treat maintainers of popular open source packages like they are dimwitted sidekicks.

Tried reading through this but without context it’s very unclear what has happened. Can someone familiar with Rust and it’s communities explain from a high level what all this is about?

tomashubelbauer 7y ago

Discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22073908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22073908

cosmic_quanta 7y ago

You can take a look at the actix-web repo, which has been wiped. A message has been added: https://github.com/actix/actix-web/ https://github.com/actix/actix-web/

chapium 7y ago
Repo wiped after receiving criticism. I think I'm beginning to see another side to the story other than reddit being a swarm of jerks.
- falcolas 7y ago
  I'm not sure you can consider "It’s extra nasty this time. Some people go far, far, far over the line." to just be criticism. What does it say that I wouldn't be surprised one iota if "far, far, far over the line" included death threats? Nobody should be expected to continue to contribute in a community with that kind of vitriol pointed their way. EDIT: Even if all "far, far, far over the line" means is personal attacks and not death threats, that is still not simply criticism, and it's still far beyond what someone should be expected to endure in the name of "open source".
- liopleurodon 7y ago
  My thought exactly. While the reddit swarm was probably harsh, it sounds like it was actually a shit project and it's probably good that it's dead
  - munmaek 7y ago
    Actix was not at all "shit". People just took some issues with a few usages of unsafe and how the author responded to issues/PRs. I've been using actix for about a year now, and was excited for the 0.2.0 updates. That said, pulling the code entirely and deleting issues was a rather immature response. As a rust user I just don't know what another good alternative is. Warp, maybe? I'm debating about just writing http stuff in Golang due to its robust standard library instead of picking among several fledgling 3rd party http libraries.
zelly 7y ago
I'm glad git is decentralized.
- KajMagnus 7y ago
  And you find it here: https://github.com/fafhrd91/actix-web https://github.com/fafhrd91/actix-web (the author moved it to his personal repo) See this comment at GitHub: https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/5#issuecomment-575740775 https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/5#issuecomment-575... — it also links to a mirror.

sampo 7y ago

Background: Actix-web is a small, fast web framework written in Rust. Then just read the second last paragraph: > This means, on some level, this situation is over: there will not be a fourth huge actix-web drama. But it’s really left a bad taste in my mouth. It’s unfortunate that a well-known project had soundness issues. It’s unfortunate that the maintainer wasn’t receptive to fixing them. At the same time, I’ve been there: being a maintainer is tough. It’s also unfortunate that there’s this style of response, and kind, and volume. It is true that the situation was dangerous. But did it have to be handled this way? You have to understand a lot of nuance here to even know the main points of the story. One version of this story that will certainly be told is “The Rust community says they’re nice but they will harass you if you use unsafe wrong.” Is that what we want? I, for one, do not. If you’re a part of Rust, you gotta ask yourself: are you happy with this outcome? How did your actions (or lack thereof) contribute to it? Could you have done something better?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jerf 7y ago

The really short answer seems to be: actix was a Rust web framework. It did some things internally that some people didn't like. The Internet echo chamber picked that up and amplified it to a volume the maintainer couldn't justify working through. The Internet echo chamber is now going to pick this up and amplify it to a volume that probably isn't justified either. I think this is another story about the destructive power of the internet echo chamber, where the asymmetry of one person vs. a mob of people who are in reality probably not all that engaged with the problem but nevertheless have enough engagement to send a nastygram or two creates a distributed denial of decorum attack that no single human being should be expected to deal with "nicely". Our ancient instinctive tribal signals of whether or not you are approved by the tribe, tuned for tribes of 150 people or so, receive a message that 15,000% of the tribe thinks you are a bad person, and our natural human response to that is a lot of stress at best (our ancient instincts tell us that eviction from the tribe is a bad thing, even though in practical terms eviction from this particular tribe won't be much of a problem at all in the modern world). (I phrase it this way because I think this is, well, not strictly speaking independent of the question of whether or not the maintainer was guilty or innocent of any particular thing, but because the story is the wild disproportionality of the response you can get on the Internet regardless.)

bionicbits 7y ago
Good explanation. One could argue that you see this playing out in Politics and News Media.
patrickmay 7y ago
"Denial of decorum attack" is a great description that deserves broader visibility. It's also a pithy summary of Twitter.
jlokier 7y ago
That is actually an awesome explanation. And absolutely correct in my view. I have been on the receiving end. I have friends who have been on the receiving end. It really is overwhelming to receive that 15,000% signal, nudged along by the dynamics of the rest of the tribe. I really like that you found a way to cover this aspect.

bjornlouser 7y ago

The Rust community is filled with Don Quixotes who treat maintainers of popular open source packages like they are dimwitted sidekicks.